Bard: directly inferior to Sorcerer?

Opalescence · Post by **Opalescence** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:21 am

I seriously can't see the advantage Bards have over the Sorcerer. Their songs are decent but really nothing incredible, their spells are nowhere near a Sorcerer's power, and their "thief-like" abilities could be made up by 1 level of rogue if it ever came to that. I just can't see why I would ever get a Bard over a Sorcerer. I mean, I know lots of people use their Bards as the main "talker" in the party, but the sorc's got good CHA too, so he can talk just as well...

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:10 am

Well, I'm more familiar with the bard in BG II (Hear'Dalis was one of the greatest and most useful chars!), but I read in another thread that Bard Songs work during pausing as well... That's kind of cheesy, I know...

Bard, imho, is not that useful if you're after spellcasting. Mage rules!

tfrab · Post by **tfrab** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:20 am

[QUOTE=Brynn]Well, I'm more familiar with the bard in BG II (Hear'Dalis was one of the greatest and most useful chars!), but I read in another thread that Bard Songs work during pausing as well... That's kind of cheesy, I know...

Bard, imho, is not that useful if you're after spellcasting. Mage rules![/QUOTE]

I agree. The first time I played IWD2 I had a bard being the "diplomat" of the party, but I didn't find the carachter very useful: I replaced her with a aasimar sorcerer and it better suits to my game style.

Neverthless I'd be glad to learn some useful way to have a bard in the party (the lingering song bug is cheating, I dislike it)

Is there any bard advocate out there?

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:24 am

Yes, there is! Hiding, no doubt

I'm a mage fan.

Opalescence · Post by **Opalescence** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:42 am

Out of blatant curiosity, I missed the AD&D craze as a kid, jumped directly into BG series and IWD series (and glad of it too!) Anyhow, do any of you know if Bards were powerful in AD&D? I mean, I noticed that monsters and just stuff in general seemed so much more powerful in the books than in these games. For instance, take a look at the Demilich in, say, NWN, and compare it with the Demilich in the epic handbook. Where's the soul-drain thing? After seeing such a huge power-difference, I fell to thinking, "Maybe, in AD&D, Bards aren't so bad!" So, all you AD&D fans, how good are they in the REAL Forgotten Realms?

One thing's probably for sure. I bet in the handbooks Bard song is probably a heckuvalot more effective than the little tunes we get to sing.

tfrab · Post by **tfrab** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:46 am

[QUOTE=Opalescence] Anyhow, do any of you know if Bards were powerful in AD&D? ([/QUOTE]

I played some years ago AD&D 2nd ed., bards where funny, but they lacked the power of other classes

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:31 am

Well in ''Forgotten realms'' (based on those books) bards can learn powerfull song magics that will make wizards spells look like puny little bunnies.. creating tornado of of death... (i am not sure due that i read that book long time ago.. but creating storms that can destroy cities.. and so on..)

But sadly all Good Bard songs are not in this game.. or in any RPG game..

i use lingerine song thing... but that does not make me cheater..(i dont use it always... and truly i use it realy rarely)

But if you can tell me what makes it cheat?
It works with latest patch..
You dont need to enable cheat console to make it work..

SO CAN YOU EXPLAIN YOUR POINT OF VIEW? if not then dont bother doing some lame ass wanna be pro player whining..

It is part of the game.. just like Medics in ET(Enemy territory) and panzer noobs and rifle naders.. it is just like playing morrowind..

tfrab · Post by **tfrab** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:43 pm

[QUOTE=Wrath-Of-Egg
i use lingerine song thing... but that does not make me cheater..(i dont use it always... and truly i use it realy rarely)

But if you can tell me what makes it cheat?
It works with latest patch..
You dont need to enable cheat console to make it work..

SO CAN YOU EXPLAIN YOUR POINT OF VIEW? [/QUOTE]

Why do you scream?
By me the lingering song is something that makes the game too easy, so I dislike it: after all you can have huge bonus to roll dice, well beyond D&D rules.
But if you like this, it's OK, flaming about this subject seems to me non sense.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:52 pm

Well that is not the post i was expecting.. so adding more details please?

But luckily you didn't post any of those tou are cheater and all.. but in these years i have posted post's and thread's.. about this matter i have got only 1 good answer.. and that was few weeks ago or few more..

So could someone please bother him/her self to tell me what makes that lingerine song cheating..

Compared to Forgotten realms books... lingerine song is only way to even got close to what bards realy are in those books...

and i would like to remind you that Black isle didn't fix this in any of their patches.. and there is cap in each song..

How many +damage spells there are? and how much do they boost your damage? cap is 20...

How high is max AC? well i would say that it is 130+.. since Sith song can boost it about 90-100..

If you want.. i can try and find out what are the true max AC bonus..

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:21 am

The great thing about bards was that they were able to do a bit of everything: a little thieving, fighting and magic. Now, with these 3e rules that advantage is sort of gone and the only thing that's left is the song.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:55 am

and without lingerine song there is not even that...

Heidrek · Post by **Heidrek** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:51 pm

I love Bards

The Bard is perhaps my fav. class. It's not as directly powerful as a Sorceror or Wizard, and I wouldn't take one in the place of either, but the Bard makes an excellent addition to your party for a few reasons.

They can fight better than a Socreror or Wizard and have more HP that pure Arcane casters, meaning they can stay alive longer. The Bard songs come in handy through out the game, Tymora's Melody particularly, but the Anti Fear song has won me many fights as it can affect characters that are already Paniced the same with the Anti silence effect, it's like a Dispel Magic on tap against these otherwise devastating effects.

Although they do not advance in casting as quickly as Sorcerors, and have a more limited spell selection, they can be just as devstating. They get some spells at a lower level than Sorcerors, effectively letting them cast them at the same level or similar level (Dominate Person, Hold Person, Dire Charm, Emotion X and especially Great Shout which is Bard level 6 and Sorc. 8 meaning both get it at level 16.). Once my Bard's Chromatic Orb spell hit the Paralyse effect he was absolutely deadly. He's essentially an Arcane caster with tricks than can fight.

His Base attack bonus advances faster than a Sorc. so he can attack more often, and he starts with better weapon proficiencies. I was actually considering having 2 Bards and a Sorc. rather than 1 bard, 1 sorc and 1 wizard because the extra fighting power would be useful. Once they get Healing Circle, they become great healers too.

The bard gives you a little more verstility in your line up than pure Sorc. they are not really front line fighters, better suited to second rank archery, healing and disabling spells while the tanks fight up front, but when needed they can pitch in very easily, throwing on a Mirror Immage and walking into the fray.

Dont write off the Bard, his fighting ability keeps him useful, particularly if you multi class him to Rogue (as I have) for some sneak attacks. You can also equip him with items that allow him some direct damage attacks too if you want. another HIGHLY useful ability of his is the Use Magic Item skill. bards get this as a class skill and it allows them to use Raise Dead and other clerical scrolls and wands you would otherwise be unable to if you cleric died. There's nothing worse than fighting a big battle and having to reload because you cleric bought it at the end thanks to a last minute critical hit.

egervari2 · Post by **egervari2** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:27 pm

From what I can remember, yes, a bard is very inherior to a Sorceror. It's also inferior to a fighter, a rogue and a cleric.

So what does it have going for it? Songs.

When I used to play, I tried out aasimar sorceror(19)/bard(11) builds that worked out fairly well. They had a ton of spells and the charisma bonus worked for both types. Since you don't really get that many spells in the highest sorceror levels in levels 20-30, you might as well get low-level ones from the barb class instead of just a few here and there from the sorceror class. You will get way more spells this way. And yeah, you get the songs so when you sorceror isn't doing squat, you can linger your songs and do all sorts of neat things.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:23 pm

All good answers... but not what i wanted..

egervari2 · Post by **egervari2** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:16 pm

[QUOTE=Wrath-Of-Egg]All good answers... but not what i wanted..[/QUOTE]
Bard is a splash class, not a main one. Moreover, it's a long-term splash class that needs 11 levels in most but not all cases. It's like a ranger being a splash to other main classes. So in it's own right, it's not really meant to be compared to a sorceror. That's why I gave my analysis on how a sorceror/bard is more powerful than a plain sorceror. So in a way, if it was not for the bard, the sorceror could not become all that it could be

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:16 am

Wrath, are you still asking why Ling-something Song is cheating? Well, it's not

According to another post, it's kind of cheesy because it works when you pause the game, too... That's not really fair, it's like casting Time Stop (which is, as far as I know, is not available in IWD II).

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:41 am

well... i was just hoping to get decent answer from those who thinks it is cheating..

like what makes it cheating ect... ect.. ect..

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:18 am

That it works even when you pasue the game. I think that's all.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:15 am

read this thing...

http://www.forumplanet.com/planetbaldur ... 470284&p=2

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:56 am

Well, nothing to add to that

Let's call it a bug, then. To play on bugs := cheese