Note I didn't say "dying". It's not dying, and won't for a long time, but is it decaying? I say this because I notice the sharp drop in quality of gameplay in recent years. Compare BG to NWN. I only use that as an example because I know no others personally, but that's why I'm asking: is there a steady decay? Maybe it's an industry-wide decay in quality, but it shows the most in RPGs, because at the heart of every RPG is its storyline. If an RPG's story sucks, then it's nothing more than pretty eye candy; something any FPS can offer for less money and more choice of weaponry. I don't know, but RPGs recently have tried to "lighten" the storyline load. Even relatively "old-timer" recent games did this; compare Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal to BGII:SoA. I mean, so many people get so angry when I say, "If you want cool graphix and 'tank the damage and shoot everyone' kind of game, please get Doom or Quake and get off our backs!" I don't understand. Am I wrong? Sure, cool graphics IS important. Fighting IS important. But I always thought that wasn't what made a good RPG. Is that faulty logic?
So few RPGs lately have any kind of gripping story that I've given up completely on them. Adventure games are no better; there's but a SINGLE adventure title that I am even thinking of buying, and that's only because it's following a gosh-darned legacy. It's really sad to think about it. So what are your opinions? Is the genre of RPGs decaying, giving way to twitch-games like Doom?
Is the RPG genre decaying?
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Opalescence
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Is the RPG genre decaying?
"Unlimited technology from all over the universe, and we cruise around in a Ford POS."
- Agent J, Men in Black
Do you feel the Call?
- Agent J, Men in Black
Do you feel the Call?
I basically think you are correct. I've often felt the same over the last periode of time, especially after BG1+BG2:SoA. (and Fallout, PS:T and similar)
The genre is decaying, and my take on it - is that the success is the reason.
The RPG genre has becomed more "main-stream" over the last couple of years with the huge success of BG-series. Thus I think that more and more companies view this genre as a potential for making big bucks just by slapping on a RPG lable.
Thus focus on the gameplay/storyline is reduced for the "known sellers" of combat and fast actions. (SW:KotOR, NwN) and also very high level caps and insanely overpowered items (BG2:ToB, NwN:HotU).
This attact more powergamers then roleplayers, thus the games start to cater more to the powergamers then the roleplayers, which means even more action and high levels with insane items.
It also seems very much as RPGs are being "dumped" down in difficulties to cater to the lowest common denominator - especially when thinking difficulties regarding solving puzzles, solving quests and similar. It almost seems like developers think it is a crime to challenge players intellect.
And nowadays in RPG difficult, means that a monster is hard to kill (or 25 monsters are hard to kill if we are talking high level).
I know it is sterotypical, but I do belive that cross-platform RPGs have a part to play in this.
It also means that NPCs become more bland (Morrowind for instance) and the gameworld become more static (SW:KotoR, Morrowind) where your actions rarely seems to count much.
I unfortunally think it (RPGs) will continue to melt with the fast action games untill a day where the differences is hard to see. Then action games - and possible even FPS will be labled as RPG "because you take on a role and build up a character".
However - my hope is that some companies occasionally will go "old school" and think more about gameplay/story then action, easiness etc.
The genre is decaying, and my take on it - is that the success is the reason.
The RPG genre has becomed more "main-stream" over the last couple of years with the huge success of BG-series. Thus I think that more and more companies view this genre as a potential for making big bucks just by slapping on a RPG lable.
Thus focus on the gameplay/storyline is reduced for the "known sellers" of combat and fast actions. (SW:KotOR, NwN) and also very high level caps and insanely overpowered items (BG2:ToB, NwN:HotU).
This attact more powergamers then roleplayers, thus the games start to cater more to the powergamers then the roleplayers, which means even more action and high levels with insane items.
It also seems very much as RPGs are being "dumped" down in difficulties to cater to the lowest common denominator - especially when thinking difficulties regarding solving puzzles, solving quests and similar. It almost seems like developers think it is a crime to challenge players intellect.
And nowadays in RPG difficult, means that a monster is hard to kill (or 25 monsters are hard to kill if we are talking high level).
I know it is sterotypical, but I do belive that cross-platform RPGs have a part to play in this.
It also means that NPCs become more bland (Morrowind for instance) and the gameworld become more static (SW:KotoR, Morrowind) where your actions rarely seems to count much.
I unfortunally think it (RPGs) will continue to melt with the fast action games untill a day where the differences is hard to see. Then action games - and possible even FPS will be labled as RPG "because you take on a role and build up a character".
However - my hope is that some companies occasionally will go "old school" and think more about gameplay/story then action, easiness etc.
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CariesMolarescu
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The good ol' days...
Nah, I don't think it's decaying. Really good CRPG's always were rare; it's just that when we think back, say, fifteen years, we only remember the truly exceptional ones. Naturally when every new one comes out whe load all our expectations on it, and then get disappointed when it doesn't measure up.
Fallout and Fallout 2 were true pinnacles of the genre; IMO never matched in their strengths since. However, they're head and shoulders above the state of the genre in their time, too -- and there have been other games since that beat them in other areas while having at least a good deal of depth and open-endedness to the storyline, room for character customization, and atmosphere. And so what if some of them are FPS-style?
What I look for in a CRPG is immersion and suspension of disbelief. There are many, many ways to achieve this. Some games with strong RPG elements that have really done this for me, apart from the Fallouts, are Arx Fatalis, Deus Ex, and, most recently, KotOR. OTOH some that have left me completely cold are NWN, Sacred, and the Morrowind extensions (anticlimactic -- you have kicked butt on a deity, so what's there left to do?).
As to Morrowind itself, despite its flaws I loved it -- open-ended, huge, tons of side quests, great storytelling, complete freedom of movement, *great* atmosphere and "cultures," great character development and customization, immense amounts and varieties of loot... If only they had decent AI, dialogue trees, and combat, it would've been an instant classic. But story and depth-wise, Morrowind can stand tall next to anything: in this, it's a great promise of what new technology can do for the genre.
As to the stuff that's coming up, I'm really looking forward to KotOR II and VtM: Bloodlines, and further into the future, Dragon Age. The talent that's going into these games hasn't gone anywhere; only the toolset has changed and in fact vastly improved. I'm sure there will be many disappointments, but there will also be the occasional classic. Within the next few years, improvements in AI will permit interaction with NPC's that's promising much deeper emotional involvement in the games -- something that IMO is the bread and butter of RPG's, and something that CRPG's haven't yet been able to do even remotely as well as a group of people interacting around a table in even the most primitive of PnP games.
/Caries
Nah, I don't think it's decaying. Really good CRPG's always were rare; it's just that when we think back, say, fifteen years, we only remember the truly exceptional ones. Naturally when every new one comes out whe load all our expectations on it, and then get disappointed when it doesn't measure up.
Fallout and Fallout 2 were true pinnacles of the genre; IMO never matched in their strengths since. However, they're head and shoulders above the state of the genre in their time, too -- and there have been other games since that beat them in other areas while having at least a good deal of depth and open-endedness to the storyline, room for character customization, and atmosphere. And so what if some of them are FPS-style?
What I look for in a CRPG is immersion and suspension of disbelief. There are many, many ways to achieve this. Some games with strong RPG elements that have really done this for me, apart from the Fallouts, are Arx Fatalis, Deus Ex, and, most recently, KotOR. OTOH some that have left me completely cold are NWN, Sacred, and the Morrowind extensions (anticlimactic -- you have kicked butt on a deity, so what's there left to do?).
As to Morrowind itself, despite its flaws I loved it -- open-ended, huge, tons of side quests, great storytelling, complete freedom of movement, *great* atmosphere and "cultures," great character development and customization, immense amounts and varieties of loot... If only they had decent AI, dialogue trees, and combat, it would've been an instant classic. But story and depth-wise, Morrowind can stand tall next to anything: in this, it's a great promise of what new technology can do for the genre.
As to the stuff that's coming up, I'm really looking forward to KotOR II and VtM: Bloodlines, and further into the future, Dragon Age. The talent that's going into these games hasn't gone anywhere; only the toolset has changed and in fact vastly improved. I'm sure there will be many disappointments, but there will also be the occasional classic. Within the next few years, improvements in AI will permit interaction with NPC's that's promising much deeper emotional involvement in the games -- something that IMO is the bread and butter of RPG's, and something that CRPG's haven't yet been able to do even remotely as well as a group of people interacting around a table in even the most primitive of PnP games.
/Caries
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Bloodthroe
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I think many RPGs are decaying, somewhat. Games have gotten so advanced and give a wide universe that it takes such a vast amount of time and energy to complete them. Also many RPG's require that you spend a lot of time playing them and to play them frequently just to make an average powered warrior for yourself. MMORPGs specificly. Something I've heard World of Warcraft wants to change. Although, when it comes down to the average gamer like myself who only spends a few hours every 2-3 days playing a game, we like playing the shooter games like you mentioned. I do enjoy Halo. I can spend a few hours on it here and there and not have to worry about collecting items or leveling. I get to play a game that was made for the reason games were made. Entertainment, to pass the time and have fun. Which is funny, because growing up, RPGs were basically my favorite type of game. As with any hardcore gamer like me at the time.
On another note, it seems that ever since after Final Fantasy 7. The FF series has gotten to be more eye candy then rather a great game. Each FF game might be different to play then the one before it... but I'm just not the type to just jump into a long story for 100 hours anymore.
On another note, it seems that ever since after Final Fantasy 7. The FF series has gotten to be more eye candy then rather a great game. Each FF game might be different to play then the one before it... but I'm just not the type to just jump into a long story for 100 hours anymore.
I kill two dwarves in the morning, I kill two dwarves at night. I kill two dwarves in the afternoon, and then I feel alright. I kill two dwarves in time of peace and two in time of war. I kill two dwarves before I kill two dwarves, and then I kill two more.
I may be bad, but I feel good.
I may be bad, but I feel good.
I would personally never classify MMORPGs in the same genre as "normal" RPGs.
There is very little room for roleplaying in a MMORPG, because of the extreemly static world and the fact that it has to cater to thousands of players.
The illusion of RPG is broken when you complete a major quest, and it has absolutely no influence on anything, and two minutes later somebody else comes along and does the same quest. (amongst other things).
There is very little room for roleplaying in a MMORPG, because of the extreemly static world and the fact that it has to cater to thousands of players.
The illusion of RPG is broken when you complete a major quest, and it has absolutely no influence on anything, and two minutes later somebody else comes along and does the same quest. (amongst other things).
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CariesMolarescu
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[QUOTE=Xandax]I would personally never classify MMORPGs in the same genre as "normal" RPGs.
There is very little room for roleplaying in a MMORPG, because of the extreemly static world and the fact that it has to cater to thousands of players.
The illusion of RPG is broken when you complete a major quest, and it has absolutely no influence on anything, and two minutes later somebody else comes along and does the same quest. (amongst other things).[/QUOTE]
Which is why I don't care for MMORPG's. They end up all about MinMaxing and mechanics instead of storytelling and immersion, which is what I go after in games... although if the mechanics are really really good, "character engineering" has its fun too.
/Caries
There is very little room for roleplaying in a MMORPG, because of the extreemly static world and the fact that it has to cater to thousands of players.
The illusion of RPG is broken when you complete a major quest, and it has absolutely no influence on anything, and two minutes later somebody else comes along and does the same quest. (amongst other things).[/QUOTE]
Which is why I don't care for MMORPG's. They end up all about MinMaxing and mechanics instead of storytelling and immersion, which is what I go after in games... although if the mechanics are really really good, "character engineering" has its fun too.
/Caries
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Bloodthroe
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[QUOTE=CariesMolarescu]Which is why I don't care for MMORPG's. They end up all about MinMaxing and mechanics instead of storytelling and immersion, which is what I go after in games... although if the mechanics are really really good, "character engineering" has its fun too.
/Caries[/QUOTE]I'm going to ramble on here since I just woke up...
Well the point of a MMORPG is the MMO. So you can experiance a game and fight monsters with real people. Some people go for that. Although, some games are more MMO then RPG. Like everquest is often described as an internet chatroom with pretty avatars rather then an immersing game. So maybe thats not the MMORPG for you. I know it's not for me. Although in contrary to what Xandax said, those quests that don't effect the storyline any. Some games (like World of Warcraft) these mini missions are how you learn new spells and skills from your teacher and not everyone does the same missions because they are generated randomly and new ones are created everyday. Which may simulate a real environment. If I do choose to play a MMORPG (which I might not) World of Warcraft might be my choice. Since the gameplay seems to be enjoyable opposed to seeming monotonous.
/Caries[/QUOTE]I'm going to ramble on here since I just woke up...
Well the point of a MMORPG is the MMO. So you can experiance a game and fight monsters with real people. Some people go for that. Although, some games are more MMO then RPG. Like everquest is often described as an internet chatroom with pretty avatars rather then an immersing game. So maybe thats not the MMORPG for you. I know it's not for me. Although in contrary to what Xandax said, those quests that don't effect the storyline any. Some games (like World of Warcraft) these mini missions are how you learn new spells and skills from your teacher and not everyone does the same missions because they are generated randomly and new ones are created everyday. Which may simulate a real environment. If I do choose to play a MMORPG (which I might not) World of Warcraft might be my choice. Since the gameplay seems to be enjoyable opposed to seeming monotonous.
I kill two dwarves in the morning, I kill two dwarves at night. I kill two dwarves in the afternoon, and then I feel alright. I kill two dwarves in time of peace and two in time of war. I kill two dwarves before I kill two dwarves, and then I kill two more.
I may be bad, but I feel good.
I may be bad, but I feel good.
evolving?
[QUOTE=Opalescence]Note I didn't say "dying". It's not dying, and won't for a long time, but is it decaying? I say this because I notice the sharp drop in quality of gameplay in recent years. Compare BG to NWN. I only use that as an example because I know no others personally, but that's why I'm asking: is there a steady decay? Maybe it's an industry-wide decay in quality, but it shows the most in RPGs, because at the heart of every RPG is its storyline. If an RPG's story sucks, then it's nothing more than pretty eye candy; something any FPS can offer for less money and more choice of weaponry. [snip][/QUOTE]
Interesting you should bring up BG and NWN, as I think that exemplifies the problem: There's really only so far programming can go with open-ended storylines. I think BG went as far as a *profitable* game can go in that direction. No matter how many programming and storyboarding and writing hours are spent on alternative dialogue trees, a reasonably imaginative 12-year-old with good old pen and paper can come up with something you didn't think of.
Consequently, I view the lackluster basic storyline in NWN as more of an extended player tutorial. The real glory of the game is in the DM tools. Yes, those pretty much bite. But nobody'd bothered to include them before (to my knowledge). It's an acknowledgement that what RPGers want is a decent framework on which to hang their own ideas.
The future of CRPG is in user mods (IMHO, obviously), and it was smart to sell the tools for it.
[Caveat: I myself am an utterly dismal DM, but I fully appreciate those who excel at it.]
[QUOTE=Opalescence]Note I didn't say "dying". It's not dying, and won't for a long time, but is it decaying? I say this because I notice the sharp drop in quality of gameplay in recent years. Compare BG to NWN. I only use that as an example because I know no others personally, but that's why I'm asking: is there a steady decay? Maybe it's an industry-wide decay in quality, but it shows the most in RPGs, because at the heart of every RPG is its storyline. If an RPG's story sucks, then it's nothing more than pretty eye candy; something any FPS can offer for less money and more choice of weaponry. [snip][/QUOTE]
Interesting you should bring up BG and NWN, as I think that exemplifies the problem: There's really only so far programming can go with open-ended storylines. I think BG went as far as a *profitable* game can go in that direction. No matter how many programming and storyboarding and writing hours are spent on alternative dialogue trees, a reasonably imaginative 12-year-old with good old pen and paper can come up with something you didn't think of.
Consequently, I view the lackluster basic storyline in NWN as more of an extended player tutorial. The real glory of the game is in the DM tools. Yes, those pretty much bite. But nobody'd bothered to include them before (to my knowledge). It's an acknowledgement that what RPGers want is a decent framework on which to hang their own ideas.
The future of CRPG is in user mods (IMHO, obviously), and it was smart to sell the tools for it.
[Caveat: I myself am an utterly dismal DM, but I fully appreciate those who excel at it.]
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CariesMolarescu
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[QUOTE=Sophiaa]
The future of CRPG is in user mods (IMHO, obviously), and it was smart to sell the tools for it.
[Caveat: I myself am an utterly dismal DM, but I fully appreciate those who excel at it.][/QUOTE]
Perhaps. Then again, the trouble is that PnP games are so much "lighter" to DM than even the best CRPG's with DM tools. I've DM'ed (gamemastered, "keepered" etc. etc.) a fair variety of PnP RPG's since the original Dungeons & Dragons. I've also dabbled in modding NWN. The thing is that it takes me way way longer to come up with the most basic of dungeon crawls in NWN than to whip up an entire campaign framework in any PnP game.
In order for CRPG's to be really comparable to PnP games when it comes to gamemastering, we'd need tools that are immensely more powerful than we currently have. I've sometimes imagined what an ideal CRPG DM tool would be like. I've even given it a name: "Demiurge." It would be backed up by a library of objects and architectural elements, fractal algorithms to create constructs like terrains and towns, and algorithms to create random variations of the objects. So basically you could tell it:
"Let there be an old, large, run-down village by the edge of the desert. Let there be a road that climbs to a pass and the lands beyond. Let there be a well where the caravans assemble when they prepare to cross the desert or return. Let there be a ruined fortress on a hilltop by the village."
And Demiurge would generate such a village... and then populate it. Then the DM could point out individual spots in the village, add or modify the pre-generated denizens to flesh them out, add scripting points, and so on. You wouldn't need to place every model or building or whatnot separately; instead you could control the way the setting (and its population) worked by tweaking various parameters. The whole could be exported to existing game engines.
It's not actually as far-fetched as it seems -- games like SimCity etc. are pretty good at generating environments, games like The Sims are pretty good at modeling interactions between AI characters, and so on.
Any takers?
/Caries
The future of CRPG is in user mods (IMHO, obviously), and it was smart to sell the tools for it.
[Caveat: I myself am an utterly dismal DM, but I fully appreciate those who excel at it.][/QUOTE]
Perhaps. Then again, the trouble is that PnP games are so much "lighter" to DM than even the best CRPG's with DM tools. I've DM'ed (gamemastered, "keepered" etc. etc.) a fair variety of PnP RPG's since the original Dungeons & Dragons. I've also dabbled in modding NWN. The thing is that it takes me way way longer to come up with the most basic of dungeon crawls in NWN than to whip up an entire campaign framework in any PnP game.
In order for CRPG's to be really comparable to PnP games when it comes to gamemastering, we'd need tools that are immensely more powerful than we currently have. I've sometimes imagined what an ideal CRPG DM tool would be like. I've even given it a name: "Demiurge." It would be backed up by a library of objects and architectural elements, fractal algorithms to create constructs like terrains and towns, and algorithms to create random variations of the objects. So basically you could tell it:
"Let there be an old, large, run-down village by the edge of the desert. Let there be a road that climbs to a pass and the lands beyond. Let there be a well where the caravans assemble when they prepare to cross the desert or return. Let there be a ruined fortress on a hilltop by the village."
And Demiurge would generate such a village... and then populate it. Then the DM could point out individual spots in the village, add or modify the pre-generated denizens to flesh them out, add scripting points, and so on. You wouldn't need to place every model or building or whatnot separately; instead you could control the way the setting (and its population) worked by tweaking various parameters. The whole could be exported to existing game engines.
It's not actually as far-fetched as it seems -- games like SimCity etc. are pretty good at generating environments, games like The Sims are pretty good at modeling interactions between AI characters, and so on.
Any takers?
/Caries
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Bloodthroe
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To help explain what the heck I was talking about,
I mean that I remember playing an old 8bit RPG on my computer going around with my 8bit hero with gumdrop eyeballs... and casting magic missle. Which only people who played the old RPGs would know what magic missle is. Today's spells are called, like, Frost Nova or Monsoon. Anyways I'd go around killing monsters, collecting treasure, going back to town, selling the treasure, buying a broadsword or something and going out again until I killed the boss and walked to the next level of the dungeon. After you beat that level of the dungeon you would be satisfied and could take a break from the game. Now, many rpgs aren't satisfying unless you spend 100 hours beating the whole game. RPGs are getting too complicated. Which is good sometimes, because I like challenges, but if I'm going to play a video game, it's to chill out and relax. Get some down time. Why can't anyone make one simple RPG of the masses that I can zone out on?
Of course I don't believe RPGs are decaying. Just not coming up with the right material now. Sure it's nice to play these long, dramatic, story-twisting games, but I'm tired of the same crap.
edit- of course I'm thinking of RPGs like Final Fantasy and Star Ocean. Not NWN(which I haven't played) or diablo(which I have and liked.)
I mean that I remember playing an old 8bit RPG on my computer going around with my 8bit hero with gumdrop eyeballs... and casting magic missle. Which only people who played the old RPGs would know what magic missle is. Today's spells are called, like, Frost Nova or Monsoon. Anyways I'd go around killing monsters, collecting treasure, going back to town, selling the treasure, buying a broadsword or something and going out again until I killed the boss and walked to the next level of the dungeon. After you beat that level of the dungeon you would be satisfied and could take a break from the game. Now, many rpgs aren't satisfying unless you spend 100 hours beating the whole game. RPGs are getting too complicated. Which is good sometimes, because I like challenges, but if I'm going to play a video game, it's to chill out and relax. Get some down time. Why can't anyone make one simple RPG of the masses that I can zone out on?
Of course I don't believe RPGs are decaying. Just not coming up with the right material now. Sure it's nice to play these long, dramatic, story-twisting games, but I'm tired of the same crap.
edit- of course I'm thinking of RPGs like Final Fantasy and Star Ocean. Not NWN(which I haven't played) or diablo(which I have and liked.)
I kill two dwarves in the morning, I kill two dwarves at night. I kill two dwarves in the afternoon, and then I feel alright. I kill two dwarves in time of peace and two in time of war. I kill two dwarves before I kill two dwarves, and then I kill two more.
I may be bad, but I feel good.
I may be bad, but I feel good.
I think that CRPGs are doing great.
I looooved the BG and IWD series when they came out - it was my first return to RPGs since PnP D&D in the early 80's and they completely satisfied my desires and dreams of what the game should be - it was awesome.
I wasn't familiar with Diablo then, and since then I've come to feel that it isn't an RPG - perhaps an action/adventure game, but it is, IMO, a very different animal than the D&D licensed games.
Neverwinter Nights continued in the fine tradition of the D&D license, with better graphics, more options, and updated rules. I don't see any decline or decay in the RPG quality between BG and NWN. You might say that NWN is more linear, has a smaller world with fewer RPG options like strongholds and romances and highly interactive NPCs, but I look upon any of these games as a module in a larger scheme of campaigning.
But since NWN, only ToEE came out, and I thought it was great. Sure, it was small, but a great game doesn't have to include over 100 hours of play for me to llike it. Heck, PnP modules didn't take years to complete - some were quick, some were long, some were open-ended, and some were very linear - depending on the goals, the DM, and the module's characteristics. So I liked ToEE, but I did feel it was too short - but isn't that a benchmark for quality? I wanted more!
I used to be leery of non-D&D games - being somewhat rigid and opinionated - but then I took a chance on games like Gothic and Morrowind (MW) - and by God, they were incredible. Their gaming worlds, character development, NPCs, and broad scope and immersion level were mind-numbing.
I was put off by their difference from the top-down views and familair D&D rules in all my previous game experiences, but once I started playing, everything changed for me. These worlds are just as big as BG2 (well, I'm just guessing - MW may be bigger, Gothic 2 may be smaller), and the feeling of being in a real fantasy world was much more powerful than looking down at animation with colored circles at their bases.
Games like Gothic 2 and Morrowind are to me proof that CRPGs are very much full of life - and they both have sequels coming out in 2005. My only thought is that it would be great to take one of these type of games, and implement D&D rules and monsters - but how far off can that be? The D&D games have always been a favorite among many CRPG-ers, and the technology for games is amazing.
I look forward to continuing great things in CRPGs.
And BTW, if you haven't played Gothic 2 or Morrowind - give one of 'em a try, fer cryin' out loud!
I looooved the BG and IWD series when they came out - it was my first return to RPGs since PnP D&D in the early 80's and they completely satisfied my desires and dreams of what the game should be - it was awesome.
I wasn't familiar with Diablo then, and since then I've come to feel that it isn't an RPG - perhaps an action/adventure game, but it is, IMO, a very different animal than the D&D licensed games.
Neverwinter Nights continued in the fine tradition of the D&D license, with better graphics, more options, and updated rules. I don't see any decline or decay in the RPG quality between BG and NWN. You might say that NWN is more linear, has a smaller world with fewer RPG options like strongholds and romances and highly interactive NPCs, but I look upon any of these games as a module in a larger scheme of campaigning.
But since NWN, only ToEE came out, and I thought it was great. Sure, it was small, but a great game doesn't have to include over 100 hours of play for me to llike it. Heck, PnP modules didn't take years to complete - some were quick, some were long, some were open-ended, and some were very linear - depending on the goals, the DM, and the module's characteristics. So I liked ToEE, but I did feel it was too short - but isn't that a benchmark for quality? I wanted more!
I used to be leery of non-D&D games - being somewhat rigid and opinionated - but then I took a chance on games like Gothic and Morrowind (MW) - and by God, they were incredible. Their gaming worlds, character development, NPCs, and broad scope and immersion level were mind-numbing.
I was put off by their difference from the top-down views and familair D&D rules in all my previous game experiences, but once I started playing, everything changed for me. These worlds are just as big as BG2 (well, I'm just guessing - MW may be bigger, Gothic 2 may be smaller), and the feeling of being in a real fantasy world was much more powerful than looking down at animation with colored circles at their bases.
Games like Gothic 2 and Morrowind are to me proof that CRPGs are very much full of life - and they both have sequels coming out in 2005. My only thought is that it would be great to take one of these type of games, and implement D&D rules and monsters - but how far off can that be? The D&D games have always been a favorite among many CRPG-ers, and the technology for games is amazing.
I look forward to continuing great things in CRPGs.
And BTW, if you haven't played Gothic 2 or Morrowind - give one of 'em a try, fer cryin' out loud!