Necromancers

Death Knight · Post by **Death Knight** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:00 pm

Are Necromancers always evil????Of corse not! Im a necromancer and im true nutral!What do you guys think?

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:02 am

Necromancers don't have to be evil, but surrounding yourself with death. So this is easilly used to make a npc or opponent cooler.

The problem could be in studying, how do you practice the study of death magic?
So in dnd, necromance is looked upon by the common -non adventurers- folk as evil IMO.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:24 am

[QUOTE=Rob-hin]Necromancers don't have to be evil, but surrounding yourself with death. So this is easilly used to make a npc or opponent cooler.

The problem could be in studying, how do you practice the study of death magic?
So in dnd, necromance is looked upon by the common -non adventurers- folk as evil IMO.[/QUOTE]

What about Necromancers that learn the arts of death in order to exterminate undead? There seem to have been a number of anti-undead necromancy spells springing up as of lately, correct?

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:33 am

Yes, but most of the necro spells affect people. It draws energy from them, invokes fear or silmpy kill them. Necromance also uses undead, summon undead/ ghasts/ mummies etc.

The Thrue necromance prestige class requires a player to be of a NON good alignment. Same goes for the Pale master prestige class. It may not be evil per se, but it's far from good.

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:57 am

Animate Dead has the [evil] descriptor, so it practicing it is evil, so necromancers are evil.

Death Knight · Post by **Death Knight** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:59 am

But Necromancers totaly kick ass!

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:20 pm

Whether or not the character itself is evil is dependant on the player and the GM - how the world is set up from the GM's point of view.

There are neutral gods of death in Greyhawk and Faerun (dunno about other worlds), so a necromancer servant of these gods may not necessarily be evil. Adjusting spell descriptors can also be done with the okay of the GM.

However, that said, most would consider the "art" of necromancy itself to be evil, IMO.

The "arse kicking" of necros is a given.

Cheers,
TGHO

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:27 pm

DND has a squed version of morality, all beings fall into categories, some of which are BORN and unalterable (despite the sentience of the creatures).

Its a silly bad excuse to have the moral high ground for massacaring creatures for not looking like you.

If you follow the base dnd morality system, then necromancy will be evil.

If you deviate from it like almost everyone who actually has a PLOT to their game does, then they can be good or neutral. I mean really, whats so bad about raising the dead?

Paranitis · Post by **Paranitis** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:36 pm

Actually I believe that EVERY sentient race other than demons/devils are not BORN evil..but are more easily persuaded into evil by their surroundings.

You can get a drow or an orc or something like that to not be evil.

A necromancer though to me I don't see as being good because you are warping and twisting the energy of living beings..neutral definately, but not good.

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:38 pm

how do you know they are warping and twisting natural engeries?

Isnt magic the same then?

Isnt raising skeletons the same as making constructs, just from bones?

It really all depends on your setting.

And why do demons and devils have to be inherantly evil? what makes them evil? I mean they ARE sentient, that means they can think. There has to be SOMETHING that would make them evil if they can think.

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:23 pm

[QUOTE=taltamir]how do you know they are warping and twisting natural engeries?

Isnt magic the same then?

Isnt raising skeletons the same as making constructs, just from bones?

It really all depends on your setting.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it does really depend on the setting, however a skeleton generally was originally part of a living creature, and thus it is not the same as making a construct such as a clay or stone golem (which are made from non-organic material).
Thus the necromancer is twisting "natural energies" because they are upsetting the "natural cycle of life and death". Skeletons are not meant to do anything but decay and moulder away (once the creature has died, that is). You'd have to set up a world, or belief system, where the creature donates, or gives permission for its skeleton to be used after death.

[QUOTE=taltamir]And why do demons and devils have to be inherantly evil? what makes them evil? I mean they ARE sentient, that means they can think. There has to be SOMETHING that would make them evil if they can think.[/QUOTE]

Generally, it is what they are. By 3.5 Edition rules, Demons and Devils are listed as "always evil aligned". A GM can change this as they wish (I do in my games). However, the default is that they are evil.

Cheers,
TGHO

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:16 pm

well, either you go by the rules to the letter, or you dont, its called DM prorogative. The rules are no excuse for demons being inheratly evil, the rules are actually kinda bland and limited.

Also, cley and the like was once part of a living creature too, it just decated etc. Practically everything on earth was part of a living creature once. Even if it wasnt there is BOUND to be some biological material there.
"natural cycle of life and death" is what YOU beleive in IRL. But who said there is one? what is natural anyways? Why do you have to set up a system where people donate it? why does it make it any different? many would argue that necromancy, even if the person donates his body, is still wrong.

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 4:35 am

[QUOTE=taltamir]well, either you go by the rules to the letter, or you dont, its called DM prorogative. The rules are no excuse for demons being inheratly evil, the rules are actually kinda bland and limited.[/QUOTE]

<Shrug> If you don't like the rules, change them. I do.

[QUOTE=taltamir]Also, cley and the like was once part of a living creature too, it just decated etc. Practically everything on earth was part of a living creature once. [/QUOTE]

Actually, no, rocks and clay are silicates, not carbonates. As such, they are inorganic compounds, not organic compounds.

[QUOTE=taltamir]Even if it wasnt there is BOUND to be some biological material there. "natural cycle of life and death" is what YOU beleive in IRL. But who said there is one? what is natural anyways? Why do you have to set up a system where people donate it? why does it make it any different? many would argue that necromancy, even if the person donates his body, is still wrong.[/QUOTE]

Hey, mate, it wasn't me. The guys who wrote the 3rd rules, go talk with them if you have a problem with their interpretation of said rules.

Within the structure of said rules, the act of necromancy is seen to be an evil act, working against nature. The rules further define nature as "the natural world" and all it emcompasses. Now, leaving all IRL stuff completely out of this discussion, within that contex the magical practice of using the remains of a now dead creature as a mindless or controlled slave is noted as an evil act (the Animate Dead spell has the evil descriptor).

If you think that this is unreasonable - change it. Just come up with a viable reason to support your hypothesis, and no worries mate.

Cheers,
TGHO

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:24 am

"Actually, no, rocks and clay are silicates, not carbonates. As such, they are inorganic compounds, not organic compounds."

They are not organic compounds NOW, but the atoms which compose them could have been part of that in the past. Take diamonds for example, you can make a diamond golem, diamonds are almost exclusively made of ancient living matter which was trapped under earth for a long time.

When you forge a steel blade you use coal, coal was also once a part of a living creature (just like oil but nothing uses oil for forging).

My point is that the rules are based on semi scientific facts, but the creators of said rules know very little about science and how the world works.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:30 am

Isn't that all a bit far feched?

Necromancy IMO directly affects the undead, as to golems etc. are very indirectly related to it.
The skeleton is still very human, a pebble is just a pebble.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:37 am

[QUOTE=Rob-hin]Isn't that all a bit far feched?

Necromancy IMO directly affects the undead, as to golems etc. are very indirectly related to it.
The skeleton is still very human, a pebble is just a pebble.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, so a wizard who affected rocks, minerals, and similar inorganic but natural substances would likely be called a Geomancer instead.

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:37 am

but, the ground from which it is made is FULL of dead matter.

Diamond golems are made exclusively from compressed dead matter, so a diamond golem would contain alot MORE dead matter. One you die you decay, you are eaten by other things, your molecules break apart (some of them, depending how long you wait) and go to other place. Earth has about the same amount of water now as it always did, its accounted for. Almost every single molecule has been part of a living creature once, almost every single molecule was peed by someone at one point. Its just how things work.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:39 am

[QUOTE=taltamir]but, the ground from which it is made is FULL of dead matter.

Diamond golems are made exclusively from compressed dead matter, so a diamond golem would contain alot MORE dead matter. One you die you decay, you are eaten by other things, your molecules break apart (some of them, depending how long you wait) and go to other place. Earth has about the same amount of water now as it always did, its accounted for. Almost every single molecule has been part of a living creature once, almost every single molecule was peed by someone at one point. Its just how things work.[/QUOTE]

But it is NOT living after the creature has fully passed. Spirits linger for some reason, but once a corpse is completey gone, it's gone. Your nutrients go somewhere, but your life force doesn't go with it.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:43 am

It's true what you say taltamir, theoratically, but it's not how people think.
Are you evil because you use a pc wich is made of dead material?

(ugh, gross thought

)

taltamir · Post by **taltamir** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:26 pm

"But it is NOT living after the creature has fully passed."

Well, it is not living matter after all the meat decayed off of the bones either. In fact its non living as soon as it becomes DEAD. Your theory of life force is setting dependant, and isn't the official explanation either.