carsomyr and Staff of magi dispel

themoot · Post by **themoot** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:26 pm

What exactly will hits by carsomyr and Staff of Magi dispel? I know that spell protections are undispellable. But I have read that Staff of Magi dispels combat protections, IE: protection from magic weapons, mantles, and carsomyr does not. I have also heard the other way around. I know that when I fought Kangaxx he threw up an improved mantle and carsomyr didn't dispel. That could have been because he had a spell trap up that blocked the effect, but I'm not sure that carsomyr's dispel is a "spell" exactly. That also could have been because Kangax was a higher level than carsomyr's dispel. What level do both weapons dispel things at anyways? I'm confused. The dispel ability is worthless if it can't dispel combat protections. Stoneskin is the only spell that mages cast that stay on themselves, besides combat protections. I'm not even sure that stoneskin is dispelled. I've never seen an enemy cast tensor's, or haste. Cleric sometimes cast stregth of one and defensive harmony, but those spells don't scare me.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:11 am

Dispell magic is an awesome spell if you know how to target it and your lev. is high enough (his effectivness is level dependant).
It will dispell about everything (that's why an Inquisitor that casts it at twice his lev is so strong!).
As for the two weapons the staff of Magi dispell (hif you hit the target) is effective because if I remeber well it uses the lev. of the wielder or twice it (as an Inquisitor), while Carsomir dispell is blocked at 10th lev. so it actually doesn't dispell things: get a fix for it (is included automatically in the "Item upgrade mod")

themoot · Post by **themoot** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:27 pm

Lompo, I don't think dispel magic is an awesome spell. I use keldorn's dispel sometimes, to dispel holds, entangles, domination, that sort of thing. However, I know for a fact that spell protections are not dispellable, which really sucks. I am willing to trust you that carsomyr's dispel is stuck at tenth level. However, when I looked at carsomyr in infinity editor, there was no level indication in the dispel magic affect. The dispel magic that comes with the sword 3 times a day is stuck at 15th level. Also, Carsomyr removed alot more affects(aka ghoul touch, flameblade) than Staff of magi, and had a "remove physical protections" affect. Staff of magi has no "remove physical protections". I really thought that staff of magi didn't dispel as well as carsomyr, before your post. Also, I think that spell protections affect both weapons dispel. The spell description for spell protections includes, "innate spell-like affects". So, three questions: 1. How are you reaching the conclusion that the dispel on carsomyr is stuck at 10th level? Are you just relying on the text in the Items upgrade mod? 2. Does the dispel affect the lower magic resistance spell when cast on enemies? 3. Does the dispel affect go through spell protections?

Grandpa · Post by **Grandpa** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:48 pm

The information you and lompo provided is incorrect. These two items can dispel ANY enchantments (spell protections, combat protections, poison, confusion, et cet) and always succeed with a successful hit. Dispel/Remove magic are probably the 2 most useful spells in ToB, they can dispel everything with a successful roll, while Carsomyr and SotM only need to hit. Anything that lowers resistance cannot be dispelled, you have to wait until it's duration is up.

For more, read:

http://members.chello.nl/%7Ej.vanthull/BG2SR/Home.html

themoot · Post by **themoot** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:32 am

Spell protections are not dispellable. I have used Keldorn's dispel (effective level 30 or so) on spell protections and they are not dispelled. The game even says that spell protections are not dispellable. Also, the dispel doesn't affect anything else, if spell protections are up. The spell protection blocks the dispel. The website is wrong, Grandpa, try it out in the game. Carsomyr doesn't dispel everything on a sucessful hit. I've never dispelled a combat or spell protection with Carsomyr. You are right about lower resistance.

I recently looked at the .itm files in infinity editor and noticed that carsomyr has a 1 in the second parameter, whereas SoM has a 0. Someone at a pocket plane forum suggested that this means that SoM dispels everything, and carsomyr casts a dispel based on the characters level. Since the "power" slot of carsomyr is a 15, maybe that level is set at 15. I'm more confused than ever. Does anyone know what Carsomyr and SoM will dispel and whether spell protections block the affect?

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:56 am

[QUOTE=themoot]Spell protections are not dispellable. I have used Keldorn's dispel (effective level 30 or so) on spell protections and they are not dispelled. The game even says that spell protections are not dispellable. Also, the dispel doesn't affect anything else, if spell protections are up. The spell protection blocks the dispel. The website is wrong, Grandpa, try it out in the game. Carsomyr doesn't dispel everything on a sucessful hit. I've never dispelled a combat or spell protection with Carsomyr. You are right about lower resistance.

I recently looked at the .itm files in infinity editor and noticed that carsomyr has a 1 in the second parameter, whereas SoM has a 0. Someone at a pocket plane forum suggested that this means that SoM dispels everything, and carsomyr casts a dispel based on the characters level. Since the "power" slot of carsomyr is a 15, maybe that level is set at 15. I'm more confused than ever. Does anyone know what Carsomyr and SoM will dispel and whether spell protections block the affect?[/QUOTE]

I do believe you are wrong. Many a lich and mage have fallen within seconds after Keldorn used his Inquisitor dispel magic right after they became hostile. Are you sure you are all patched up, baldurdash included?

themoot · Post by **themoot** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:37 pm

I have the official patch, but I don't have the baldurdash patch. I don't understand why baldurdash would change whether dispel works on spell protections. The game says that dispel doesn't work on spell protections. They introduced special spells (Ruby ray, secret word) to counter spell protections because dispel does not work. If spell trap, a ninth level spell, which is meant to counter 30 levels of spells, could be dispelled by a third level spell I would be disapointed. Dispel also works on everything, whereas the spell protection dispellers are limited to spell protections. It would make dispel, particularly in an inquisitor, too powerful. This is a baldurdash fix that I wouldn't install. Mage battles are hard because they throw up a combat and spell protection. They can't be hurt until ruby ray then breach are cast. If one keldorn dispel could kill any mage, that would make wizards too easy.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:57 pm

[QUOTE=themoot]I have the official patch, but I don't have the baldurdash patch. I don't understand why baldurdash would change whether dispel works on spell protections. The game says that dispel doesn't work on spell protections. They introduced special spells (Ruby ray, secret word) to counter spell protections because dispel does not work. If spell trap, a ninth level spell, which is meant to counter 30 levels of spells, could be dispelled by a third level spell I would be disapointed. Dispel also works on everything, whereas the spell protection dispellers are limited to spell protections. It would make dispel, particularly in an inquisitor, too powerful. This is a baldurdash fix that I wouldn't install. Mage battles are hard because they throw up a combat and spell protection. They can't be hurt until ruby ray then breach are cast. If one keldorn dispel could kill any mage, that would make wizards too easy.[/QUOTE]

Not so as it will
a) dispell any buffs on your party (and they are essential for survival)
b) only work against low level mages who shouldn't pose too much of a problem anyway.

themoot · Post by **themoot** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:21 pm

keldorn's dispel works against all mages(in SOA). I'm pretty sure the most powerful mage is kangaxx at level 26. Most mages are level 18 tops. By the time Keldorn is 14 his dispels work 100% of the time against all but kangaxx, some liches, and maybe Jon (I'd have to check). I know that kangaxx is level 26, and so Keldorn has a 50% chance of dispel against him at level 13. Look at the creature files in SK. But anyways, I don't want to argue about the usefulness of dispel. I want to know what Carsomyr and SoM will dispel, and whether or not spell protections block this affect. Has anyone ever dispelled a combat protection or a spell protection with Carsomyr or SoM?

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:49 pm

Sorry to further the argument, but Xyx' spell guide further supports my point (the one that it dispels all, not the one that it's not overpowered)

As to your question: I seem to recall Staff of the Magi and Carsomyr to having different 'types' of dispel; staff of the magi would dispel all spells on a mage [like the spell itself] while carsomyr would only dispel certain effects (I'm not certain; I can't remember). I also remember a baldurdash fix to fix the bug, but I can't find it now - as a matter of fact I can't find any fixes featuring the dispel spell.
Sorry if I'm not of much help - my memory seems to be failing me

I'm pretty sure at least one of them dispelled both magic and combat protections, though...

themoot · Post by **themoot** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:24 pm

As I stated to grandpa, I think that the guide is wrong. The game text and my game experience back me up. Maybe I'm just having really bad luck dispelling with keldorn. Nuff said.

As for the carsomyr and SoM comment, this is more what I'm looking for. Based on the pocketplane forum, I now think that SoM is a better dispeller. But I would like to know what exactly both weapons will dispel, and whether or not their dispel is affected by spell protections.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:14 am

I don't currently have the game installed, but wouldn't it be rather easy to extract both files and then take a look at them in IEEP? The difference should be apparent there...

Ieldra · Post by **Ieldra** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:23 am

[QUOTE=themoot]As I stated to grandpa, I think that the guide is wrong. The game text and my game experience back me up. Maybe I'm just having really bad luck dispelling with keldorn. Nuff said.

As for the carsomyr and SoM comment, this is more what I'm looking for. Based on the pocketplane forum, I now think that SoM is a better dispeller. But I would like to know what exactly both weapons will dispel, and whether or not their dispel is affected by spell protections.[/QUOTE]

The main question is how the interaction between Spell Immunity: Abjuration and Dispel Magic works. The Dispel Magic arcane spell will not affect a character protected by SI:Abj, nor will it bring the protection down. The same applies to Globe of Invulnerability and Spell Trap. If the items' Dispel works like the spell (except for the area effect, of course), there should be no difference. The items should not affect enemies protected by SI:Abj, Globe of Invulnerability or Spell Trap. It's been a while, but IIRC, my experience supports this.

The items should affect combat protections like Stoneskin, Protection from Magical Weapons and suchlike, unless the enemy is protected as above, in which case nothing should happen.

The items should also dispel Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, all types of invisibility, any type of Spell Immunity except Abjuration, Protection from Fire/Acid/Cold/Electricity/Elements/Magical Energy etc. etc., again, unless the enemy is protected by the spells mentioned above.

At last, there are the Spell Turning/Deflection spells. I'm not sure about them. Since they work only on spells cast directly at someone, it might just be that the Dispel Magic spell, as cast from a mage, is unaffected and may bring the protection down, while dispels from an item hit are affected and don't go through.

Anyway, chances are, if you can't affect an enemy with an item dispel, either they are too high in level or protected by one of three specific spells: Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Trap or Spell Immunity:Abjuration.

Ah, and I forgot: if you fight liches, they are completely immune to all spells of level 5 or lower. That includes Dispel Magic. The items shouldn't work either.

Baldursgate Fan · Post by **Baldursgate Fan** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:51 am

[QUOTE=Vicsun]I do believe you are wrong. Many a lich and mage have fallen within seconds after Keldorn used his Inquisitor dispel magic right after they became hostile. Are you sure you are all patched up, baldurdash included?[/QUOTE]

Vicsun is right. There are indeed Baldurdash patches to fix the dispel bugs in Carsomyr and Staff of Magi. To quote from the description on Staff of Magi fix:

"This update also resolves the problem of all the equipped abilities of the Staff (including its Armour Class bonus) being dispellable by Dispel Magic, Dead Magic Zones and Beholder Anti-Magic Rays, as other equipped items' abilities are considered to be active as long as the item is held."

themoot · Post by **themoot** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:28 pm

I had a great idea yesterday. I tested Carsomyr SoM, and the dispel function against my own party members. I loaded my mage up with mantles, protection from weapons, and spell protections, and then started hitting him with carsomyr and SoM. What I found was that although the text "Dispel affect" was displayed, not everything was dispelled. Some people are probably reading that message and thinking that everything was dispelled, even though their weapons aren't hitting, their spells aren't working, and the enemy is still showing the spell. Here are my results.

CONCLUSIONS:
Dispel does not dispel spell protections. It will dispel everything else, and will dispel things when a spell protection is up. IE if you cast spell turning and then mantle, and then keldorn casts dispel, the mantle will disapear, and the spell turning will stay. Globes of invulnerablity (even minor) are also not dispelled, even though the text says that they are, probably because dispel is a third level spell. The spell guide website is wrong. The game text is right. Spell protections are not dispellable.

Carsomyr doesn't dispel spell protections or combat protections. It can't even dispel stoneskin. It is broken. This is probably because the second parameter of the dispel affect in the item file is 1 not 0, as I stated in my second post. The blokes at pocketplane were wrong about the affect of this parameter. Infinity Editor says that this parameter needs to be 0 and they are right. I'm going to change this parameter to 0 in my games.

Staff of magi will dispel everything but spell protections. If a spell protection and a combat protection are both up, the combat protection will dispel, the spell protection will not. However, it will not dispel protection from magic weapons, because it can't hit. I wouldn't want baldurdash to change this.

Grandpa · Post by **Grandpa** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:37 pm

Spell turning and deflection type spells can reflect dispel. I usually pierce shield those, then dispel/breach for combat protections. Legitimate Carsomyr dispels at level 15, while Staff of the Magi dispels all. Sorry, I was using a cheating Carsomyr that, like the Magi staff, ignores the targets level (changes one string, you can take the fix/cheat from the Item Upgrade mod).

themoot · Post by **themoot** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:52 pm

I don't accept that. I banged on my mage with a stone skin like 30 times with an un-modded carsomyr. The dispel affect text played, but stoneskin was not dispelled. Same with mantle, protection from weapons. Carsomyr isn't set at a level, it just doesn't work. I put imoen in my partty to get another mage, and she was only 13 level. Even if carsomyr did dispel at level 15, it would have had a 60 % chance of dispelling. Staff of magi doesn't dispel everything, but leaves spell protections and protection from magic weapons in place. These are the facts, try them out yourself like I did. Don't just say that spell protections can be dispelled because you read it on the misguided spell guide website like you did in your first post.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:52 pm

[QUOTE=themoot]Carsomyr doesn't dispel spell protections or combat protections. It can't even dispel stoneskin. It is broken. [/QUOTE]
You are right - I found the following post on Baldurdash's forums. One of the bugs in the post is:
Carsomyr's (both +5 in SoA and upgradable to +6 in ToB) Dispel Magic ability on hitting a target in melee was broken; barely worked at all.

ensaro dai · Post by **ensaro dai** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:49 am

Besides the fact that the dispel magic function aint working the right way, there is no doubt that the Carsomyr is one (if not thé) of the best 2-handerswords in the game (both SoA+ToB)!