Imoen vs Jan

Anjelen79 · Post by **Anjelen79** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:37 pm

I just exited the Underdark, with Imoen in my party. I'm thinking of getting Jan back, tho (after having removed him to make room for Yoshimo). She's dual 13mage/7thief, he's a 11mage/12thief.
I plan on continuing into ToB. Do I need a proper thief there? My other mage is Edwin.

Should I stick with Imoen, or get Jan?
Thanks!

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:55 pm

Imoen or Jan: The Eternal Question. Why not both? There's no reason you need a "balanced party" to win. It's exceptionally easy to win with any kind of party.

But if it's a choice, I'd go with Jan: best thief in the game, an excellent mage (particularly after he can use all devices in ToB), and some of the snappiest dialog. Great writing for the character.

me0w · Post by **me0w** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:47 pm

"(after having removed him to make room for Yoshimo)"

I think we all know where the arguement lies, its really not Jan vs Imoen.

I'd say the choice is quite clear, keep that scum, or go for one of the funnest characters ever.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:57 pm

Deoend is you want a thief who can cast spells (Jan) or a mage who can pick locks and deal with traps (Imoen).

Oh yeah, and Imoen is integral to the storyline, your sister, and more powerful, if that helps your decision.

Edar Macilrille · Post by **Edar Macilrille** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:03 am

For effectiveness I do not like any of them. Sure Jan is an OK thief (it is not that hard to make a better one yourself though, but you will miss the dialogue, which is sad). But he gets injured all the time and is a liability that way. You basically have to devote people to guard him against even the smallest goblin or kobold (well yes, so I am exaggerating), even my Multiplayer-controlled-by-me-homemade sorcerer is tougher than Jan. Unfortunately. No tough Hobbits here...
And Imoen sucks as a thief, sister or not. I never understood why the Imoen in BG II is lower-level thief than the one you end BG I with. Personally I would have changed her to mage around lvl 8- 12. But, as Cespenar says "well then...".

Anjelen79 · Post by **Anjelen79** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:09 am

Ok then, let me put it this way... Do you need a good thief in ToB, or will Imoen suffice? Perhaps this should be in ToB forum then, tho...

Ieldra · Post by **Ieldra** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:38 am

You can get by with Imoen. Get a few potions of Master Thievery or Perception just in case she needs it, that should be enough.

What you will miss are Thief HLAs. I have always wanted to try the famous Spike Traps, and Use Any Item is priceless. But I can't stand Jan, he's so annoying. So after playing a Swashbuckler once (and forgetting about traps altogether in that game), I never again had a Thief with HLAs in my party. Too bad. I really wish there was a non-evil Thief NPC mod with some interesting content, but so far I haven't found any.

Valmont · Post by **Valmont** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:33 am

Had same dilemma. I went for Jan myself.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:07 pm

[QUOTE=Ieldra]You can get by with Imoen. Get a few potions of Master Thievery or Perception just in case she needs it, that should be enough.

What you will miss are Thief HLAs. I have always wanted to try the famous Spike Traps, and Use Any Item is priceless. But I can't stand Jan, he's so annoying. So after playing a Swashbuckler once (and forgetting about traps altogether in that game), I never again had a Thief with HLAs in my party. Too bad. I really wish there was a non-evil Thief NPC mod with some interesting content, but so far I haven't found any.[/QUOTE]

shadow keeper in spike traps...

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:29 pm

[QUOTE=Edar Macilrille]For effectiveness I do not like any of them. Sure Jan is an OK thief (it is not that hard to make a better one yourself though, but you will miss the dialogue, which is sad). But he gets injured all the time and is a liability that way. You basically have to devote people to guard him against even the smallest goblin or kobold (well yes, so I am exaggerating), even my Multiplayer-controlled-by-me-homemade sorcerer is tougher than Jan. Unfortunately. No tough Hobbits here...
And Imoen sucks as a thief, sister or not. I never understood why the Imoen in BG II is lower-level thief than the one you end BG I with. Personally I would have changed her to mage around lvl 8- 12. But, as Cespenar says "well then...".[/QUOTE]

There's a mod somewhere on this forum that has Imoen as a 10th level Swashbuckler/1st level Age at the beginning of Irenicus' dungeon. It makes the dungeon tricky until you pick up Yoshimo (no thief, unless you're one), but it's a lot of fun. It also makes sense, storyline wise, and Imoen is a better thief in the end for it.

Ieldra · Post by **Ieldra** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:32 am

[QUOTE=Klorox]There's a mod somewhere on this forum that has Imoen as a 10th level Swashbuckler/1st level Age at the beginning of Irenicus' dungeon. It makes the dungeon tricky until you pick up Yoshimo (no thief, unless you're one), but it's a lot of fun. It also makes sense, storyline wise, and Imoen is a better thief in the end for it.[/QUOTE]

Use Refinements' Imoen the Swashbuckler together with Dungeon-Be-Gone - no more Chateau Irenicus trickiness... getting through the first level of the dungeon without a Thief is annoying, not so much because of the traps but because of all the chests you can't open.

@Userunfriendly: yes, I could do that, but it feels too much like cheating - as opposed to some other things I do with Shadowkeeper.

Miser · Post by **Miser** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:06 am

Jan, I choose you!

Jan is better.

Imoen is a bad thief. She can't be entirely depended upon to disarm traps or open locks. Although it's true that they have similar stat points in open locks and find traps, the fact that Jan can keep leveling gives him the edge over Imoen. His starting gear and his race gives him additional bonuses.

As a mage, with Imoen, you'll have a pure mage to work with. (well, she's not really a pure mage, but that 40k exp makes nearly no difference.) If you play SoA, Imoen can get lv7 and lv8 spells. Still, I would choose Jan since he gets more spell-slots.

ToB is where Jan really shines. Project image and simulacrum gives him a load more spike traps and lets him place up to 10 traps without any disappearing. 200d6 damage, as we know, can easily kill any monster in the game. He can still make Planetar/skeleton/invisible stalker armies, like Edwin, but not as broken. His strength lies really with his increased trap-count.

ensaro dai · Post by **ensaro dai** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 5:31 am

I think you use your thief mostly for pockpicking/detecting traps etc etc. Imoen suits it well enough, but if you like backstab/trap abilities you should go with Jan. If you rather have a Good mage with a little bit of sufficient thiefing skills you should go for Imoen, she can sort the traps and lockpicks, but isnt much of a thief besides it!

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:36 am

[QUOTE=Ieldra]You can get by with Imoen. Get a few potions of Master Thievery or Perception just in case she needs it, that should be enough.

What you will miss are Thief HLAs. I have always wanted to try the famous Spike Traps, and Use Any Item is priceless. But I can't stand Jan, he's so annoying. So after playing a Swashbuckler once (and forgetting about traps altogether in that game), I never again had a Thief with HLAs in my party. Too bad. I really wish there was a non-evil Thief NPC mod with some interesting content, but so far I haven't found any.[/QUOTE]

What about the greatest and coolest character in BG - Haer'Dalis?

At higher levels he gets the same abilities, excellent comapnion, charming personality, astonishing battle skills (dual wielding and stuff) - what else would you need?

Valmont · Post by **Valmont** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:18 am

Hmmmm... I hadn't even thought of Haer'dalis... Too late now, tho. I've chosen Jan, and I'm about to enter Suldanesselars Palace. Thanks for your thoughts tho, people!

Ieldra · Post by **Ieldra** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:23 am

Haer'Dalis has not all the important Thief abilities. Apart from that, he sucks....

me0w · Post by **me0w** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:31 am

You can have a difference of opinion and not like his character, because he is rude, abnoxious, etc. But you must admit, he is a good character, his dex draining blade is very nice. He is a blade!! He isn't as much of an ass if your a woman, I think.

You don't really NEED thief abilities anyway, just get knock and mirror immage and your fine. He also has good lore (If I remember correctly) He really is a great character, let him grow on you.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:35 am

He really is a great character, let him grow on you.

In a game like BG2, where you can win with literally any combination of party members, it really does come down to this: the characters you enjoy, the great dialog, and the strategic thinking involved in using them to best advantage.

Ellester · Post by **Ellester** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:25 pm

Imoen will be a better mage, but since you have Edwin you really don’t need another good mage. As mentioned Jan will have better thief abilities, and the thief HLA’s are pretty darn nice. I would choose Jan. If you didn’t have Edwin I would choose Imoen.

One thing of note, Jan can’t cast Horrid Wilting, because he’s an Illusionist. If you love this spell then stay with Imoen.

Ieldra · Post by **Ieldra** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:07 am

[QUOTE=me0w]You can have a difference of opinion and not like his character, because he is rude, abnoxious, etc. But you must admit, he is a good character, his dex draining blade is very nice. He is a blade!! He isn't as much of an ass if your a woman, I think.[/QUOTE]

Well, I admit he is an *interesting* character, even though I don't like him. I know you're a Blade fan, but I don't understand their appeal, so, yes, I don't think he's a particularly useful character. If it were only his personality, there would be parties where he fit.

[QUOTE=me0w]You don't really NEED thief abilities anyway, just get knock and mirror immage and your fine. He also has good lore (If I remember correctly) He really is a great character, let him grow on you.[/QUOTE]

A party without Remove Traps *can* be played, but it's annoying. It's almost as annoying to change your mages' spell configuration every time you enter an area with dozens of locked chests and doors. And Thief HLAs are great. My preference list would be: Imoen, then Jan, and then, perhaps, Haer'Dalis, but only after considering everyone else.