Best race for sorceror
Best race for sorceror
What do you think the best race for sorceror is? I played with an Aismar sorceror that was pretty good. However, now that I look closely at the drow race, I think that they would make a far better sorceror. Thoughts?
And the Cosmic AC said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!"
I choose the wild elf only because they get proficiencies in bow and large swords. I think they get the same racial modifier as their more common cousins do. My other choice was the tiefling.
J
J
Fifteen birds in five firtrees,
Their feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze!
But, funny little birds, they had no wings!
O what shall we do with the funny little things?
Their feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze!
But, funny little birds, they had no wings!
O what shall we do with the funny little things?
Is there any point in advancing beyond level 20? I have only just begun to play IWD2 so I dont know much. If there is advancement beyond level 20 then perhaps the subraces with level penalties are not so good for casters.
SO I would say human or half elf if you want one level of something else with your sorceror.
SO I would say human or half elf if you want one level of something else with your sorceror.
You can't handle the truth!
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Wrath-Of-Egg
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Well you will have enough spells when you are at level 20.. but the rest is up to you..
_________
How can you say no to this face?
But seriusly.. Party without Bard is not party...
I can understand that SYM forum.. mentally 6 year old people is just running around with scissors on their hand.
Last edited by Wrath-Of-Egg : Today
How can you say no to this face?
But seriusly.. Party without Bard is not party...
I can understand that SYM forum.. mentally 6 year old people is just running around with scissors on their hand.
Last edited by Wrath-Of-Egg : Today
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winter sorrow
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Any race with a +2 charisma bonus is going to make their spells 5% harder to save against. The only races that have this bonus are aasimar and the drow. In practice, I find their ECL penalties to be a minor annoyance.
The daylight penalty makes little difference to a drow sorceror. You're not going to melee so the attack and damage penalties don't matter. And most of the game takes place indoors. As an elf, you're immune to sleep type spells (the biggest problem in the early game for a low HP spellcaster) and have magical resistance that cuts in before there is any question of you making your save roll.
Out of the aasimar and drow, I prefer the latter. Also, there is the added bonus of having a feat in bows - though I must admit that I don't use bows for my sorceror as crossbows tend to be a superior choice for this class. Of cource, drow also make excellent wizards and the above comments apply as well. A drow specialist wizard is far from weak..
If you want to play a wizard, you can try a deep gnome. Dead easy to play in the early game esp if you max out dexterity, choose shield as one of your starting spells and give him / her a heavy crossbow. With blur and mirror images to start, this character is near impossible for the enemy to hit and can actually make a good substitute tank in the beginning. Use in a ECL heavy party of 3 or 4 to make levelling up easier. I normally go for the illusionist or conjuror/enchanter depending on whether I feel like sacrificing skull trap / wail of banshee / animate dead or all the useful (at least in normal mode) evocation spells.
The daylight penalty makes little difference to a drow sorceror. You're not going to melee so the attack and damage penalties don't matter. And most of the game takes place indoors. As an elf, you're immune to sleep type spells (the biggest problem in the early game for a low HP spellcaster) and have magical resistance that cuts in before there is any question of you making your save roll.
Out of the aasimar and drow, I prefer the latter. Also, there is the added bonus of having a feat in bows - though I must admit that I don't use bows for my sorceror as crossbows tend to be a superior choice for this class. Of cource, drow also make excellent wizards and the above comments apply as well. A drow specialist wizard is far from weak..
If you want to play a wizard, you can try a deep gnome. Dead easy to play in the early game esp if you max out dexterity, choose shield as one of your starting spells and give him / her a heavy crossbow. With blur and mirror images to start, this character is near impossible for the enemy to hit and can actually make a good substitute tank in the beginning. Use in a ECL heavy party of 3 or 4 to make levelling up easier. I normally go for the illusionist or conjuror/enchanter depending on whether I feel like sacrificing skull trap / wail of banshee / animate dead or all the useful (at least in normal mode) evocation spells.
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silverdragon72
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the SR of a drow is nice...
...but not necessary if you take an aasimar pal1/sorcX having extremly good saves...
...and for an aasimar you can mix in the pal-level without exp-mali
...the disadvantage of the lost level is reduced by the lower ECL-penalty...
...btw. I don't think that the ECL-penalty is such a big problem in IWD2 cause
1. you start with more EXP (every race needs 1000 EXP for the 2nd level) !
2. with the lowered average party level you get more EXP - means an ECL-heavy party will get to level 20 ~ as fast as a non-ECL party !
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the SR of a drow is nice...
...but not necessary if you take an aasimar pal1/sorcX having extremly good saves...
...and for an aasimar you can mix in the pal-level without exp-mali
...the disadvantage of the lost level is reduced by the lower ECL-penalty...
...btw. I don't think that the ECL-penalty is such a big problem in IWD2 cause
1. you start with more EXP (every race needs 1000 EXP for the 2nd level) !
2. with the lowered average party level you get more EXP - means an ECL-heavy party will get to level 20 ~ as fast as a non-ECL party !
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winter sorrow
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I agree with silverdragon in that with an ECL heavy party, the ECL is not a real hinderance to level advancement. It only becomes more of a problem if you don't have a ECL heavy party and don't use level squatting to keep your average party levels lower.
Also, agree that pal 1 / sorc x is a decent alternative to a drow sorc in general. However, the sleep spell that enemy magi are so fond of casting will still hit your aasimar pal / sorc at lower levels as there is no save if you have 4 or less hit dice. I'm not sure about this, but I think that command and greater command count as sleep spells - if this is true then all elves do have a very useful immunity. Then again, the aura of courage of a pal is also good - there's nothing worse than your sorceror running around like a headless chicken while you cleric runs after him trying to remove fear, leaving your tanks to get butchered. But, as with all things, good preparation and tactics will make almost any choice of race a good one for a sorceror. Even a strongheart halfling sorceror is can be a fairly decent choice: extra feat to instantly go for greater spell focus in one school, possible starting dexterity of 20 to have +7 attack with a heavy crossbow, nice bonus against fear effects.
Also, agree that pal 1 / sorc x is a decent alternative to a drow sorc in general. However, the sleep spell that enemy magi are so fond of casting will still hit your aasimar pal / sorc at lower levels as there is no save if you have 4 or less hit dice. I'm not sure about this, but I think that command and greater command count as sleep spells - if this is true then all elves do have a very useful immunity. Then again, the aura of courage of a pal is also good - there's nothing worse than your sorceror running around like a headless chicken while you cleric runs after him trying to remove fear, leaving your tanks to get butchered. But, as with all things, good preparation and tactics will make almost any choice of race a good one for a sorceror. Even a strongheart halfling sorceror is can be a fairly decent choice: extra feat to instantly go for greater spell focus in one school, possible starting dexterity of 20 to have +7 attack with a heavy crossbow, nice bonus against fear effects.
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silverdragon72
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[QUOTE=winter sorrow]However, the sleep spell that enemy magi are so fond of casting will still hit your aasimar pal / sorc at lower levels as there is no save if you have 4 or less hit dice. I'm not sure about this, but I think that command and greater command count as sleep spells - if this is true then all elves do have a very useful immunity.[/QUOTE]
...you're right with the sleep spell - but I've never seen someone casting this spell - most enemie caster use "hold person" but I've never seen a sleep spell !
...and you wake up after you get hit the 1st time...
..so sleep isn't a problem in IWD2 from my point of view!
AFAIK the command spells doesn't count as sleep - but maybe they failed to penetrat your drows SR...
btw. my aasimar pal2/sorcX with a CHA+7 made every save so far (AFAIR)
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...you're right with the sleep spell - but I've never seen someone casting this spell - most enemie caster use "hold person" but I've never seen a sleep spell !
...and you wake up after you get hit the 1st time...
..so sleep isn't a problem in IWD2 from my point of view!
AFAIK the command spells doesn't count as sleep - but maybe they failed to penetrat your drows SR...
btw. my aasimar pal2/sorcX with a CHA+7 made every save so far (AFAIR)
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winter sorrow
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Must be me. I often see sleep and command spells being used against me in the early stages of the game. Agree that it isn't usually a problem as you wake up with one hit, but there were times during my first few games when I was sent to sleep but the enemy ignored my sleeping mage (and cleric) and pummelled my tanks to death. Again, I completely agree that hold person is by far the bigger headache to deal with. But my drow's SR usually stops that dead. Even if it doesn't my will saves (including the +2 bonus?) usually stop that as well.
So, command spells don't count as sleep spells? Oh well, would have been too good to be true. I'll pay more attention to the feedback box..
In your experience SD, does the pal / aasimar have a good save vs wail of banshee spell? Am thinking of the mage from the six followers(?) party that casts wail every now and then. I think with a +7 bonus from CHA, about +4 or 5 base fortitude save and let's say +2 bonus from CON, you get an approx save of 14 for a level 15 or so character. For a mage casting wail with no spell focus and prime casting stat of 19, the DC is 23 I think. So, you only have about 50% chance of resisting a wail spell, at least on paper.
So, command spells don't count as sleep spells? Oh well, would have been too good to be true. I'll pay more attention to the feedback box..
In your experience SD, does the pal / aasimar have a good save vs wail of banshee spell? Am thinking of the mage from the six followers(?) party that casts wail every now and then. I think with a +7 bonus from CHA, about +4 or 5 base fortitude save and let's say +2 bonus from CON, you get an approx save of 14 for a level 15 or so character. For a mage casting wail with no spell focus and prime casting stat of 19, the DC is 23 I think. So, you only have about 50% chance of resisting a wail spell, at least on paper.
In a mixed race Party with ECL and Non ECL characters i'd have to say go with Human or Wild Elf. Human give the bonus Feat and skill points so you can afford to drop Int to pump your Con or Dex score and still have enough skill points to keep your Spellcraft and Concentration up.
If you've got a party full of ECL characters, then Drow seems like the best option. Although Asamiir isn't a bad idea either. Problem is that while you won't have a problem with the XP you get, you will find getting to 3rd level a bit of a problem, particularly for the Drow unless you are playing a very small party.
The two characters I always want to advance quickly are my Cleric and Sorceror, so I'm still keen on the Non ECL races.
Wild Elf gives you great Dex and the Bow feat to make your Sorc. a good archer too. while still allowing you to Multiclass later to the class(es) of your choice.
If you've got a party full of ECL characters, then Drow seems like the best option. Although Asamiir isn't a bad idea either. Problem is that while you won't have a problem with the XP you get, you will find getting to 3rd level a bit of a problem, particularly for the Drow unless you are playing a very small party.
The two characters I always want to advance quickly are my Cleric and Sorceror, so I'm still keen on the Non ECL races.
Wild Elf gives you great Dex and the Bow feat to make your Sorc. a good archer too. while still allowing you to Multiclass later to the class(es) of your choice.
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I think Humans are the best option, specially if you allow some min-maxing for the reason Heidrek said before: you can drop int. without losing skill points necessary to spelcraft/concentration, plus you have a bonus feat.
No other no ECL race gives you the same benefit. Wild elf allow you an easier multiclassing, but they dont give you such great bonus, the best being the resistance to enchantment spells; the bow feat isn't that great, xbows are much better for sorcerer and you want be able to maximize dex (considering you will max char. and con. first).
The other good option are Aesimars and Drow: both are well suited for the job, with drows with better bonus but with heavier ECL penalty. But, as Heidrek, stated you want your sorcerer and clerics to level up in the fastest way: I would choose a Drow only if I play a total ECL party and never if you don't plan to play HoF unless you use a in a small party (you need 16 lev. to be able to cast 8th lev spells, and with 6 person party you should reach 16th/17th lev with your non ECL members).
No other no ECL race gives you the same benefit. Wild elf allow you an easier multiclassing, but they dont give you such great bonus, the best being the resistance to enchantment spells; the bow feat isn't that great, xbows are much better for sorcerer and you want be able to maximize dex (considering you will max char. and con. first).
The other good option are Aesimars and Drow: both are well suited for the job, with drows with better bonus but with heavier ECL penalty. But, as Heidrek, stated you want your sorcerer and clerics to level up in the fastest way: I would choose a Drow only if I play a total ECL party and never if you don't plan to play HoF unless you use a in a small party (you need 16 lev. to be able to cast 8th lev spells, and with 6 person party you should reach 16th/17th lev with your non ECL members).
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silverdragon72
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a drow sorc is defiently a very good choice...
...cause drow is for almost every class the best choice (btw. I don't like deep-gnomes even if they are good )
...but for this reason I tend to use non-drow PCs where it's possible without loosing to much power... (but an all drow party is definetly very powerfull)
with the aasimar pal2/sorcX - I even don't see any disadvantages
- the 2 Pal levels give you saves equal to the drow SR
- gives you all armor & martial weapon profs
- immunity to fear is just great (gelugons & co.)
- additional 12 HP are quite good at the beginning
- and even a lay on hands healing 12 HP instantly can be very ahndy in the beginning !
btw. even with the 2 Pal level and a party of six I don't see any EXP problems:
I'm right now at end of the rivercaves (BS complete) with an pal2/sorc12 and a party average level of 9.8 -> 9 !
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a drow sorc is defiently a very good choice...
...cause drow is for almost every class the best choice (btw. I don't like deep-gnomes even if they are good
)...but for this reason I tend to use non-drow PCs where it's possible without loosing to much power... (but an all drow party is definetly very powerfull)
with the aasimar pal2/sorcX - I even don't see any disadvantages
- the 2 Pal levels give you saves equal to the drow SR
- gives you all armor & martial weapon profs
- immunity to fear is just great (gelugons & co.)
- additional 12 HP are quite good at the beginning
- and even a lay on hands healing 12 HP instantly can be very ahndy in the beginning !
btw. even with the 2 Pal level and a party of six I don't see any EXP problems:
I'm right now at end of the rivercaves (BS complete) with an pal2/sorc12 and a party average level of 9.8 -> 9 !
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With lev. squatting and/or muling you solve the exp. problems, but if you want to start with a six member party you can't muling, and I don't like extreme lev. squatting (why should I play for most of the game underpowered to be overpowered only at the end?).
BTW I've never played HoF and I don't know if I'll play it in the future, so my consideration are for normal mode only.
That said I believe that the best races for sorceror are: humans (for normal mode, 6 party member, no diplomat), drows (HoF, small party), Aesimar (more multi pourpose, best if you want a diplomat); the first and the last allow you tu multi to a paladin, but I would first reach an high lev. of sorcerer and then take a paladin lev.: sorcerer are offensive power for me, and I prefer to have tham able to cast better spells (clerics can protect/buff them, fighters/summons will avoid beating).
In your case the difference is between a 12/2 sorc. pally and a 14 sorc: a 14 sorc. can cast 7th lev. spells (finger of dead/D.B.F.) which you sorc. wan't be able to cast for the next 2 lev (loooong way), and when yor sorc. will reach 14/2 a normal sorc. will be 16 (Abhw, symbol hopelesness) and will be almost the end of the game (normal).
Yes you have better saving throws, but nothing that exaltation/caotic commands and death ward can/t fix in a better way.
So taking pally lev. is good but I would take them later.
BTW I've never played HoF and I don't know if I'll play it in the future, so my consideration are for normal mode only.
That said I believe that the best races for sorceror are: humans (for normal mode, 6 party member, no diplomat), drows (HoF, small party), Aesimar (more multi pourpose, best if you want a diplomat); the first and the last allow you tu multi to a paladin, but I would first reach an high lev. of sorcerer and then take a paladin lev.: sorcerer are offensive power for me, and I prefer to have tham able to cast better spells (clerics can protect/buff them, fighters/summons will avoid beating).
In your case the difference is between a 12/2 sorc. pally and a 14 sorc: a 14 sorc. can cast 7th lev. spells (finger of dead/D.B.F.) which you sorc. wan't be able to cast for the next 2 lev (loooong way), and when yor sorc. will reach 14/2 a normal sorc. will be 16 (Abhw, symbol hopelesness) and will be almost the end of the game (normal).
Yes you have better saving throws, but nothing that exaltation/caotic commands and death ward can/t fix in a better way.
So taking pally lev. is good but I would take them later.
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silverdragon72
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lompo you are right that it is good to have higher spell-levels earlier...
...but on the other hand level 6 or 7 spells 1st gets handy in the monastry...
- ok might be nice for completing BS - but it's also no problem without them - only need haste, stoneskin & chromatic orb
- icetempel are more or less a pure melee levels - only need some defensive buffing & chromatic orb (rules against remorhaz & aurils!)
- for the river-caves casting web and fireballs is more then enough !
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lompo you are right that it is good to have higher spell-levels earlier...
...but on the other hand level 6 or 7 spells 1st gets handy in the monastry...
- ok might be nice for completing BS - but it's also no problem without them - only need haste, stoneskin & chromatic orb
- icetempel are more or less a pure melee levels - only need some defensive buffing & chromatic orb (rules against remorhaz & aurils!)
- for the river-caves casting web and fireballs is more then enough !
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I agree with you that you don't need the high spell earlier, but you will need them later.
Passing from 14th lev. to 16th. lev is a long way, and when you'll get 7th lev. when a pure sorc. gets Adhw/S.o.H.. And when finally (maybe at the very end of normal, if squatting/muling etc) you'll get them a pure sorc. will get Wail of the Banshee!!!!.
Going back a pure sorc. gets fireball at 6th (Goblin fortess?), your built at that lev. will be able to cast M.I. and that makes difference!
On the other hand you get better saving throws, but you don't need them either (use protective spells) and some extra h.p., although nice, are not what makes you sorc. strong.
Powerful spells make sorcerer strong.
Only after you get lev. 9 spells (around 19/20 lev) I think it's worth taking 1 lev. of paladin, definetly not 2 (immunity to fear isn't that important).
Passing from 14th lev. to 16th. lev is a long way, and when you'll get 7th lev. when a pure sorc. gets Adhw/S.o.H.. And when finally (maybe at the very end of normal, if squatting/muling etc) you'll get them a pure sorc. will get Wail of the Banshee!!!!.
Going back a pure sorc. gets fireball at 6th (Goblin fortess?), your built at that lev. will be able to cast M.I. and that makes difference!
On the other hand you get better saving throws, but you don't need them either (use protective spells) and some extra h.p., although nice, are not what makes you sorc. strong.
Powerful spells make sorcerer strong.
Only after you get lev. 9 spells (around 19/20 lev) I think it's worth taking 1 lev. of paladin, definetly not 2 (immunity to fear isn't that important).
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silverdragon72
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[QUOTE=lompo]I agree with you that you don't need the high spell earlier, but you will need them later.
Passing from 14th lev. to 16th. lev is a long way, and when you'll get 7th lev. when a pure sorc. gets Adhw/S.o.H.. And when finally (maybe at the very end of normal, if squatting/muling etc) you'll get them a pure sorc. will get Wail of the Banshee!!!!.
Going back a pure sorc. gets fireball at 6th (Goblin fortess?), your built at that lev. will be able to cast M.I. and that makes difference!
On the other hand you get better saving throws, but you don't need them either (use protective spells) and some extra h.p., although nice, are not what makes you sorc. strong.
Powerful spells make sorcerer strong.
Only after you get lev. 9 spells (around 19/20 lev) I think it's worth taking 1 lev. of paladin, definetly not 2 (immunity to fear isn't that important).[/QUOTE]
...hmmmm...-...had fireballs already since 1st level of the goblin fortress !
btw. having an ECL-heavy party and using some level squatting - 3 of my PCs are about 2 level higher as they should be...
...but level-squatting has one major disadvantage - when you take the squatted levels you will have an higher party average as you should have at this point (getting less EXP from now on) - and you will need extremly long for levelling afterwards !
...fear immunity is great - there are so many enemies having auras and besides paladin gives +4 to saves against fear for the rest of the party !
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Passing from 14th lev. to 16th. lev is a long way, and when you'll get 7th lev. when a pure sorc. gets Adhw/S.o.H.. And when finally (maybe at the very end of normal, if squatting/muling etc) you'll get them a pure sorc. will get Wail of the Banshee!!!!.
Going back a pure sorc. gets fireball at 6th (Goblin fortess?), your built at that lev. will be able to cast M.I. and that makes difference!
On the other hand you get better saving throws, but you don't need them either (use protective spells) and some extra h.p., although nice, are not what makes you sorc. strong.
Powerful spells make sorcerer strong.
Only after you get lev. 9 spells (around 19/20 lev) I think it's worth taking 1 lev. of paladin, definetly not 2 (immunity to fear isn't that important).[/QUOTE]
...hmmmm...-...had fireballs already since 1st level of the goblin fortress !
btw. having an ECL-heavy party and using some level squatting - 3 of my PCs are about 2 level higher as they should be...
...but level-squatting has one major disadvantage - when you take the squatted levels you will have an higher party average as you should have at this point (getting less EXP from now on) - and you will need extremly long for levelling afterwards !
...fear immunity is great - there are so many enemies having auras and besides paladin gives +4 to saves against fear for the rest of the party !
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winter sorrow
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Level squatting means not levelling up when you are prompted to upon attaining the next level's worth of XP.
The point of this is the computer looks at your current average party level when it decides how much XP to dish out for a kill. If your average party level is too high, it is possible to not receive any XP for a kill. Squatting is a way of ensuring that you continue to receive XP at certain points in the game. However, when you do eventually level up you will be at a higher level than you would normally be and so you could receive little or no XP after that. Think of it as a way of accelerating your level advancement early on.
The other time that squatting is useful is when you have drow, gray dwarves, deep gnomes mixed with non ECL races. You can squat the non ECL characters to lower your average party level a bit and make it easier for the ECL ones to advance.
Of course, you can exploit this and have e.g. a four character party with a single level 1 or 2 character to level squat and drag your average party levels down.
The point of this is the computer looks at your current average party level when it decides how much XP to dish out for a kill. If your average party level is too high, it is possible to not receive any XP for a kill. Squatting is a way of ensuring that you continue to receive XP at certain points in the game. However, when you do eventually level up you will be at a higher level than you would normally be and so you could receive little or no XP after that. Think of it as a way of accelerating your level advancement early on.
The other time that squatting is useful is when you have drow, gray dwarves, deep gnomes mixed with non ECL races. You can squat the non ECL characters to lower your average party level a bit and make it easier for the ECL ones to advance.
Of course, you can exploit this and have e.g. a four character party with a single level 1 or 2 character to level squat and drag your average party levels down.