help that God may only be able to give, but i'll seek it here anyways...

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:01 am

[QUOTE=dark_raven]somthing good, but quite shocking... my ex just called me and said she found herself another boyfriend! thoe she still loves me, she said she knew she couldn't put me through this situation and she was going to try to let me go! -ÐR[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a solution

At least the resposibility of making the decision is not yours to bear anymore - but you still have some things to work out, like trying to friends... Not easy at all...

dark_raven · Post by **dark_raven** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:11 pm

fable wrote:@Dark Raven, often the "I don't wanna compete with somone else for you" speech is the "let's just be friends because I'm uninterested" speech translated into the NICE language. Whether this is true in your case or not, lies between you and your ego.

...I truly love you... I almost have you back... i love you...

this was in the last e-mail my ex sent me. see what i mean?

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:26 pm

[QUOTE=dark_raven]this was in the last e-mail my ex sent me. see what i mean?[/QUOTE]

No. But it's good to believe in something.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:38 pm

[QUOTE=Brynn]Uh... Sorry CE, but I don't think that's a good idea. Thinking that everything is free and acceptable, and this "take what you want" way of thinking is exactly what makes this world as it is, imho... (no offense meant, though)[/QUOTE]

Now, Dark Raven is not considering open relationships due to his religion, but in general: how do you mean that honest agreements between grown-up people, is related to the conflicts and cruelty of humanity?

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:45 pm

I'll voice an alternative opinion here, thus demonstrating why I almost never offer romantic advice on this forum!

I think Dark Raven should stop worrying about girlfriends altogether, whether in monogamous or polygamous relationships. Instead he should worry about more important things like schoolwork, family, and his good friendships that he needs to cultivate now for the rest of his life. At 17, my opinion is that girlfriends come and go, and the less he frets about them now, the more enjoyable those relationships will be. Wait for additional maturity before really getting serious; say another 8 to 10 years.

Note, my feelings come from both being a father now, and having a youth spent in wild self-flagellation over girls and relationships, which I now regret as time miss-spent.

asurademon · Post by **asurademon** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:09 pm

@ Fable, I did read down, but somehow I over looked a couple posts (that's what I get for posting when I'm tired lol).

Back on the other subject that was brought up in this thread

Quoting C Elegans
"The only solution I see if you love both and want to have a romatic and sexual relationship to both, is that you asked them what they would think about having a polygamic relationship. Of course you must grant them access to other partners as well, then."

Not necessarily true, if someone really wanted to have a polygamous relationship where their partners are monogamous with them, but they aren't monogamous with their partners, all they'd have to do is find some people that like that idea, and could agree to having that sort of relationship. It may not be easy to find people that want that sort of relationship, but it's not entirely impossible.

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:55 am

[QUOTE=C Elegans]Now, Dark Raven is not considering open relationships due to his religion, but in general: how do you mean that honest agreements between grown-up people, is related to the conflicts and cruelty of humanity?[/QUOTE]

That's not exactly what I meant by relating to "this world"

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, sorry.

As I see many people find it hard to establish and maintain a "normal" relationship, and one of the reasons may be that everything is free these days, you don't have to bear resposibility for anything - if you get enough of someone, you can just leave him/her. You can get anybody and anything you want. If you want two girls at the same time, why not? Just do what you want, it's a free world! Well, though it sounds good and convincing, I don't believe that people who consider themselves well-grown can truly accept these kind of relationships, no matter what they say. Everybody is looking for love, respect and safety, imho. But then I can be wrong. I couldn't take part in anything like that, that's sure. I can speak only for myself, though.

frogus23 · Post by **frogus23** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:36 am

[QUOTE=Brynn]As I see many people find it hard to establish and maintain a "normal" relationship, and one of the reasons may be that everything is free these days, you don't have to bear resposibility for anything - if you get enough of someone, you can just leave him/her. You can get anybody and anything you want. If you want two girls at the same time, why not? Just do what you want, it's a free world! Well, though it sounds good and convincing, I don't believe that people who consider themselves well-grown can truly accept these kind of relationships, no matter what they say. Everybody is looking for love, respect and safety, imho. But then I can be wrong. I couldn't take part in anything like that, that's sure. I can speak only for myself, though.[/QUOTE]
You are very mistaken. Love, respect and safety? I'm sure a lot of people are looking for these (although some look for pleasure, dominance and excitement, for example) - but people find them in different places. Not everybody will feel love, safety and respect in the same kind of relationship that you would feel it.
Monogamy is an idiosyncratic aspect of Christian doctrine, IMO. It is not the norm across cultures and time periods (i.e. you are on dodgy ground saying it is normal), and whatsmore, even if it were 'normal' this alone does not make it good in any way IMO.

A lack of responsibility and accountability?
In a relationship, nobody is accountable to social norms or Christian doctrine or any outside factors at all. In a relationship you are accountable to yourself, and to the other people in the relationship. If two people in love is committment and respect, then you cannot call three people in love lack of responsibility or not being 'well-grown'.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:08 am

[QUOTE=Brynn]...if you get enough of someone, you can just leave him/her. You can get anybody and anything you want. If you want two girls at the same time, why not? Just do what you want, it's a free world! Well, though it sounds good and convincing, I don't believe that people who consider themselves well-grown can truly accept these kind of relationships, no matter what they say.[/QUOTE]

If I understand you correctly, you're stating that some people simply aren't taking responsibility for maintaining a relationship: they use the "it's a free world, I'll do what I want" argument to justify arrangements that are superficial, then refuse to place energy into the day-by-day working out of problems, strengthening of ties, creation of excitement, etc. While this in itself is true, I don't see the correlation to what you call,earlier in your post, a "normal" relationship--by which, I assume you're implying a heterosexual couple...? Or even a homosexual couple; still, some cultures have successfully existed for centuries in which polygamy and polyandry have been both normal, and successful. Even in the US, the Mormons (who are among the most conservative people on just about every issue you'd care to find, if you'd care to look for that) still permit polygamy, and it exists alongside monogamy without any problem under both Utah law and social custom.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:19 am

[QUOTE=Gwalchmai]...Note, my feelings come from both being a father now, and having a youth spent in wild self-flagellation over girls and relationships, which I now regret as time miss-spent.

[/QUOTE]

This is sound advice, and worth taking. Although I haven't reached the ripe old age Gwally has attained yet, I've been around for a while and share a similar view. Of course, I'll point out that this sort of advice was given to me by my father when I was going through this sort of stuff...and I never listened. Instead, I am sitting here now, many years later, saying you should listen.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:33 am

It's not easy to put your whole life in perspective, especially not at age 17, but chances are, you won't be with either one of these young women twenty years from now. If you believe in monogamy, then you might have to get used to the idea of "serial monogamy", which means going from one serious, committed relationship to the next. It's completely different from polygamy, but over the course of time, you will have been with multiple partners. This entails a lot of difficult questions. How do you break up with someone? Will you ever see her again? How do you treat an "ex"? Every time you get monogamously involved with someone, you have to make a painful choice: by saying "yes" to one person, you have to say "no" to everyone else. That's what making choices is all about. If you want to be a well-adjusted adult, get used to it.

dark_raven · Post by **dark_raven** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:48 pm

you say that i probally won't be with either of these young ladies in ten to twenty years... i was talking to my girlfriend yesterday about marrage. we have plans already and her uncle said that he'd pay for the whole thing (which i'm not arguing with

). i'm planing on proposing to her on her 20th birthday... thats 3 years from this saturday. we are really committed to each other.

as for my ex, me and her still have love for each other but sence she got another boyfriend, we have spent less time together and she is now really committed to him. so i still love her but as far as getting back together with her, thats not going to happen.

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:06 am

Fable, you're right (and you got me correctly

). And I also added that I can speak only for myself, so if other people choose to live a different life with different kind of relationships, I'm not here to judge them (I have no intention, nor he right to do so). I'm just saying that I don't approve of this, and I wouldn't advise anybody (especially teenagers) to accept open relationships. That's all.

DR: do you consider your problem solved now? Are you OK with this situation?

Adahn · Post by **Adahn** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:05 am

I don't doubt you love both girls, and that it's indeed honest true love. After all we all know that Ivanhoe experienced true love for both the Jewish girl and the Princess, but you're going to have to find a way to get closure, do the matture thing and chose. You'll always have that pain in the pit of your stomach, and I should know. I've done some terrible things in past relationship, and they used to haunt me so bad I couldn't sleep at night, and I would get depression attacks, or rage ones.

I've gotten closure since then, and helped the other persons move on as well. I'm happy now with my girlfriend, and I love her more than anything on earth. But really, if you're suffering as you are now, your ex must be suffering too. If you really do love her, set her free from the pain. Tell her in all honesty, that you love her, so much... that you would sacrifice your own happiness, for hers. That's all the advice I can give you my friend.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

[QUOTE=Brynn]Fable, you're right (and you got me correctly

). And I also added that I can speak only for myself, so if other people choose to live a different life with different kind of relationships, I'm not here to judge them (I have no intention, nor he right to do so). I'm just saying that I don't approve of this, and I wouldn't advise anybody (especially teenagers) to accept open relationships. That's all. [/QUOTE]

I don't know if it's a matter of advising it. Personally, I've no interest in it, myself, but if and when young people are experimenting with the possibilities of sexual and cultural relationships, I'm inclined to think it's only to fair to remind them of all options. Far too many people have suffered through entire lives of misery, because they didn't even consider certain lifestyles as available choices--much less rejected them. One doesn't have to personally advocate the prizes that lie behind every door, in order to point out all the doors for those who are so inclined. Each to their own, and more power to them, IMO.

dark_raven · Post by **dark_raven** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:13 pm

side thought

rereading many posts, i've noticed that people keep mentioning sexual relations with the 2 girls... i must ask this question... when did i say that i wanted to be sexually invalved with both of them? i'm 17... thats like, atleast 4 years too young to even consider a sexual relation. and the first time i'm planing on having my relationship turn to a sexual one is after i've married one of them (which is going to be my current girlfriend). i do admit that i have thought of it befor, but every time i do, i find myself thinking of the downside of premarital sex more then the up side of it.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:32 pm

I think people did mention sexual relationships because they didnt see any reason to assume a religous fundamentalist viewpoint. For many people sex is considered a natural and important, or even essential, aspect of romantic relationships.

Adahn · Post by **Adahn** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:51 pm

[QUOTE=Dottie]I think people did mention sexual relationships because they didnt see any reason to assume a religous fundamentalist viewpoint. For many people sex is considered a natural and important, or even essential, aspect of romantic relationships.[/QUOTE]

Ok now I've calmed down from a "Rage" like state recently, but I don't think you should start calling his beliefs fundamentalist... He may have other viewpoints and ideals than us but... let's try to respect him as best we can alright? If he believes pre-marrital sex is a sin or whatever, it's his right. I personally don't, you probably don't. To each his own.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:00 pm

There was no disrespect meant, but the idea that premarital sex is wrong is rarely found outside fundamentalist religous groups. That made me suggest this was a reason people assumed sex with someone you love and have a relationship with is something desirable.

Adahn · Post by **Adahn** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:07 pm

[QUOTE=Dottie]There was no disrespect meant, but the idea that premarital sex is wrong is rarely found outside fundamentalist religous groups. That made me suggest this was a reason people assumed sex with someone you love and have a relationship with is something desirable.[/QUOTE]

You mean more "concervative" religious groups. In southern united states it's kind of common. I should know, my girl friend's father would shoot my ass off with a shot gun if he found out I was *oning his daughter before marriage hehe.