The Bard is perhaps my favourite class. I love the flexibility and utility they provide over the other more specialised classes. They have better offensive magic than clerics, better healing than Wizards and enough weapon proficiencies to be a capable combatant without having to multiclass.
The Bard seems to be a class that people love or hate, I'm interested in finding out what everyone thinks is the best race/multiclass/ability scores for a bard and what role they serve in your party.
Do you like the Rogue/Bard scout type, the spellsword Fighter/Bard or the super spellslinger Bard/Sorceror which gets around the low level spell selection problem and lets you cast forever?
I've tried a Bard/Rogue which worked fine as an archer and sneak attacker but was hampered by low melee ability and lack of Feats. I'm trying a Fighter/Bard at the moment, using the bard as an offclass for Mirror Image, Blink, Blur and Grease with a few other spells later, but only getting upto 4th level Bard spells. I want her to be an engine of death and pain weilding 2 weapons she's specialised in and throwing up Images to protect herself.
Best build for a Bard
Best build for a Bard
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Wrath-Of-Egg
- Posts: 1147
- Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:30 am
- Location: Finland.. or on that other place..
Fighter/bard works fine to me... Perhaps my fafourite bard build..
Rogue/bard It can be nice... but not for my taste..
Sorcerer/Bard.. Well if you take 11 bard levels to get all songs... it is going to take forever..
Rogue/bard It can be nice... but not for my taste..
Sorcerer/Bard.. Well if you take 11 bard levels to get all songs... it is going to take forever..
_________
How can you say no to this face?
But seriusly.. Party without Bard is not party...
I can understand that SYM forum.. mentally 6 year old people is just running around with scissors on their hand.
Last edited by Wrath-Of-Egg : Today
How can you say no to this face?
But seriusly.. Party without Bard is not party...
I can understand that SYM forum.. mentally 6 year old people is just running around with scissors on their hand.
Last edited by Wrath-Of-Egg : Today
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silverdragon72
- Posts: 850
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:53 am
- Contact:
.
...definetly druid / bard !
have a human female bard 9 / druid X with
STR 6 - DEX 13 - CON 10 - INT 13 - WIS 18 - CHA 16
as diplomat - support PC in a party of six !
having reached bard 5 - druid 3 I stopped her levelling up to keep the party average level down
...but she is a great diplomat with lots of skill points hard to hit due to expertise, MI & blur
normally she sings Timora's song - and cast a few barkskins and entangles
....she doesn't have killed anything beside a few kegs so far
...but that's no real problem in a party of 6 and will certainly change when she gets more levels !
...does anybody know if bard & druid-spells like MI, blur, barkskin and so on will conserve when she shapeshifts ?!
.
...definetly druid / bard !
have a human female bard 9 / druid X with
STR 6 - DEX 13 - CON 10 - INT 13 - WIS 18 - CHA 16
as diplomat - support PC in a party of six !
having reached bard 5 - druid 3 I stopped her levelling up to keep the party average level down
...but she is a great diplomat with lots of skill points hard to hit due to expertise, MI & blur
normally she sings Timora's song - and cast a few barkskins and entangles
....she doesn't have killed anything beside a few kegs so far
...but that's no real problem in a party of 6 and will certainly change when she gets more levels !
...does anybody know if bard & druid-spells like MI, blur, barkskin and so on will conserve when she shapeshifts ?!
.
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winter sorrow
- Posts: 71
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Am playing a drow bard and most likely will stay a pure class.
I'm not too sure, but I think starting stats were Str 17, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 4, Cha 16. As you can see, I decided to live with the -3 will save penalty. This was offset partly by the racial bonuses drow have versus enchantment spells and to will saves (both +2, not sure if they stack or if they're "either/or" bonuses), and of course SR. I also, have two dedicated (drow) clerics to buff up mental defenses.
With starting stats like these, it isn't hard to buff the bard up to be a decent fighting machine. So far the bard has the same amount of kills as my Duergar fighter. In my party, I have an Oghma cleric - I can easily boost the bards spellcasting DC with the eagle's splendor lvl 1 domain spell. I gave the bard Int 12 so that I can take the expertise feat at some point (useless in HOF mode I know, but not bad for most of normal when combined with the various illusion spells of the bard). Also, did this to put some points into talking skills and into pickpocket (to get specific items at the start like the Knucky and a 'free' ring of protection, which I got with only 3 points in pickpocket).
Fighter / Bard is great and much more effective than a Rogue / Bard. It's mainly due to the extra feats that you get. With a straight bard you have to be more picky with feats.
Personally I don't much point in the sorceror / bard esp in normal mode. I'd go with either a straight sorceror or bard if you want a good spellcaster.
I think you do retain MI, barkskin etc benefits if you shapeshift - not sure, will check. You can definitely continue to sing songs which is a bit weird. Personally, I'd have gone with a human cleric/bard with starting stats around
str 16, dex 12, con 14, int 4, wis 16 cha 14, or even a female drow bard/cleric (but I'd probably put more points into int). Maybe, tempus would be a good idea if you want a melee build as you'd get its innate +6 str ability and you'll get an extra animate dead spell (as a domain spell), which would help initially.
I'm not too sure, but I think starting stats were Str 17, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 4, Cha 16. As you can see, I decided to live with the -3 will save penalty. This was offset partly by the racial bonuses drow have versus enchantment spells and to will saves (both +2, not sure if they stack or if they're "either/or" bonuses), and of course SR. I also, have two dedicated (drow) clerics to buff up mental defenses.
With starting stats like these, it isn't hard to buff the bard up to be a decent fighting machine. So far the bard has the same amount of kills as my Duergar fighter. In my party, I have an Oghma cleric - I can easily boost the bards spellcasting DC with the eagle's splendor lvl 1 domain spell. I gave the bard Int 12 so that I can take the expertise feat at some point (useless in HOF mode I know, but not bad for most of normal when combined with the various illusion spells of the bard). Also, did this to put some points into talking skills and into pickpocket (to get specific items at the start like the Knucky and a 'free' ring of protection, which I got with only 3 points in pickpocket).
Fighter / Bard is great and much more effective than a Rogue / Bard. It's mainly due to the extra feats that you get. With a straight bard you have to be more picky with feats.
Personally I don't much point in the sorceror / bard esp in normal mode. I'd go with either a straight sorceror or bard if you want a good spellcaster.
I think you do retain MI, barkskin etc benefits if you shapeshift - not sure, will check. You can definitely continue to sing songs which is a bit weird. Personally, I'd have gone with a human cleric/bard with starting stats around
str 16, dex 12, con 14, int 4, wis 16 cha 14, or even a female drow bard/cleric (but I'd probably put more points into int). Maybe, tempus would be a good idea if you want a melee build as you'd get its innate +6 str ability and you'll get an extra animate dead spell (as a domain spell), which would help initially.
My Bard is curreently Fighter2/Bard2, Human with stats as follows:
Str 16 Int 12 Wis 3 Dex 16 Con 16 Cha 14
I took Fighter as my first level for the extra feat, so his feats are currently: Two weapon Fighting, Amibdex., Weapon Focus: Shortblades, Lingering Song and Rapid Shot.
I'm wondering if I should go for a Fight4/Bardx or Bard7-8/Fightx build. Or Fighter4/Rogue5/Bardx for some good sneak attack damage and plenty of UMD skill points from the Rogue levels. I love Great Shout and Mass Haste which you get at 16th level Bard, but you still get many good spells by level 7-8 Bard, all the good defensive ones anyway. Is it worth twice the levels for a couple more good spells?
I'm nearing my next level up so I need to make a decision on whether to I'm going to take rogue Levels or not. Sneak attacks are pretty nice in Normal and handy in HoF.
Str 16 Int 12 Wis 3 Dex 16 Con 16 Cha 14
I took Fighter as my first level for the extra feat, so his feats are currently: Two weapon Fighting, Amibdex., Weapon Focus: Shortblades, Lingering Song and Rapid Shot.
I'm wondering if I should go for a Fight4/Bardx or Bard7-8/Fightx build. Or Fighter4/Rogue5/Bardx for some good sneak attack damage and plenty of UMD skill points from the Rogue levels. I love Great Shout and Mass Haste which you get at 16th level Bard, but you still get many good spells by level 7-8 Bard, all the good defensive ones anyway. Is it worth twice the levels for a couple more good spells?
I'm nearing my next level up so I need to make a decision on whether to I'm going to take rogue Levels or not. Sneak attacks are pretty nice in Normal and handy in HoF.
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Just my two gold worth. I only played through once, (twice including the same charactors in heart of fury). My Bard, Auireland was a 50/50 ranger. She could about handel battlesquares. Crossbows and duelwield. Just quirks that may be better than a straight fighter, like tracking. I feel roll playing-wise a Paladin would be a good duel class.
Kind of cool topic, since when I play again I'd want a bard but did not know if it should be a pure bard for spell casting purposes. When do they peak?? Do they max at a spell casting level????
From her frozen North
P
Kind of cool topic, since when I play again I'd want a bard but did not know if it should be a pure bard for spell casting purposes. When do they peak?? Do they max at a spell casting level????
From her frozen North
P
Screamming!!!!!!!!!!!!
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winter sorrow
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:15 am
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@Heidrek
I'd pass on taking rogue levels. 5 points in UMD isn't great if you want to use some good higher level scrolls that the bard can't cast already (esp. some cleric scrolls). A 3d6 sneak attack bonus is nice, but if personally I'd go with the extra feats and slightly higher base attack bonus as a fighter. That is if you want to have more of a melee build bard - whether that is preferable to a spellcaster build bard all depends on what the rest of your party is like.
If you think you can reach level 6+ bard spells, go for the bard levels. If you think you'll only reach level 5 spells by the end of normal mode, take the rest of your levels in fighter - but I'd level up the bard until I get level 4 spells (mainly to get dominate person).
BTW you're wisdow score is very low for a human build. Your will saves must be super low! In my drow build, I've also lowered wisdom. But the drow gets an effective +4 racial save bonus (i.e the two do stack)! I've turned on the dice roll option in feedback and can see the +4 bonus kicking in. I think all enchantment spells have will saves (if allowed) and vice versa. Oh, and (I did ask this in another post but I'll put it here anyways) my drow are immune to command (not tried greater command yet) - it must fall within the 'sleep' spell category. SR and saves weren't even required - I confirmed with the feedback window.
@ Patrick
Bards peak very late - I think level 26 for spellcasting and level 11 for their songs. You'll probably not get the highest level spells in normal mode. However, getting level 7 spells is do-able in a very small party but level 6 is really where the party is at. Only prismatic spray is the decent level 7 spell.
There is basically a 'gap' (around levels 12-15) when your bard seems to not be gaining very much compared to other pure casters / melee fighters. At level 5 you gain a few summon spells that aren't bad but none of them will be great tanks, a healing circle spell that is pathetic compared to a cleric's heal at a similar class level, and a +3 weapon spell (which is not bad for certain enemies). So what a lot of people do is to take 11 levels of bard and dual/multi class to something else (e.g. rogue, fighter, ranger etc).
But a bard's level 6 spells are worth waiting for. Great shout (guaranteed stun and decent anti-mage spell), various better summon spells (esp. haste) and mass haste are excellent all-situation spells. You get these at level 16 I think.
I'd pass on taking rogue levels. 5 points in UMD isn't great if you want to use some good higher level scrolls that the bard can't cast already (esp. some cleric scrolls). A 3d6 sneak attack bonus is nice, but if personally I'd go with the extra feats and slightly higher base attack bonus as a fighter. That is if you want to have more of a melee build bard - whether that is preferable to a spellcaster build bard all depends on what the rest of your party is like.
If you think you can reach level 6+ bard spells, go for the bard levels. If you think you'll only reach level 5 spells by the end of normal mode, take the rest of your levels in fighter - but I'd level up the bard until I get level 4 spells (mainly to get dominate person).
BTW you're wisdow score is very low for a human build. Your will saves must be super low! In my drow build, I've also lowered wisdom. But the drow gets an effective +4 racial save bonus (i.e the two do stack)! I've turned on the dice roll option in feedback and can see the +4 bonus kicking in. I think all enchantment spells have will saves (if allowed) and vice versa. Oh, and (I did ask this in another post but I'll put it here anyways) my drow are immune to command (not tried greater command yet) - it must fall within the 'sleep' spell category. SR and saves weren't even required - I confirmed with the feedback window.
@ Patrick
Bards peak very late - I think level 26 for spellcasting and level 11 for their songs. You'll probably not get the highest level spells in normal mode. However, getting level 7 spells is do-able in a very small party but level 6 is really where the party is at. Only prismatic spray is the decent level 7 spell.
There is basically a 'gap' (around levels 12-15) when your bard seems to not be gaining very much compared to other pure casters / melee fighters. At level 5 you gain a few summon spells that aren't bad but none of them will be great tanks, a healing circle spell that is pathetic compared to a cleric's heal at a similar class level, and a +3 weapon spell (which is not bad for certain enemies). So what a lot of people do is to take 11 levels of bard and dual/multi class to something else (e.g. rogue, fighter, ranger etc).
But a bard's level 6 spells are worth waiting for. Great shout (guaranteed stun and decent anti-mage spell), various better summon spells (esp. haste) and mass haste are excellent all-situation spells. You get these at level 16 I think.
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Wrath-Of-Egg
- Posts: 1147
- Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:30 am
- Location: Finland.. or on that other place..
Well... Bards realy dont have high need for high intelligence..
_________
How can you say no to this face?
But seriusly.. Party without Bard is not party...
I can understand that SYM forum.. mentally 6 year old people is just running around with scissors on their hand.
Last edited by Wrath-Of-Egg : Today
How can you say no to this face?
But seriusly.. Party without Bard is not party...
I can understand that SYM forum.. mentally 6 year old people is just running around with scissors on their hand.
Last edited by Wrath-Of-Egg : Today
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winter sorrow
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:15 am
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Bards don't need points in intelligence if you don't need skill points in anything other than concentration and/or don't wish to take the expertise feat.
I normally do use the bard's other skills though and sometimes take expertise feat for normal mode play. You can gain some nice items right at the start by pickpocketing and fodder to sell (I usually do this to equip my party with a couple of +1 weapons asap). If you take the human bard, you can minimise intelligence to 3 and just use the bonus skill point that humans get.
I normally do use the bard's other skills though and sometimes take expertise feat for normal mode play. You can gain some nice items right at the start by pickpocketing and fodder to sell (I usually do this to equip my party with a couple of +1 weapons asap). If you take the human bard, you can minimise intelligence to 3 and just use the bonus skill point that humans get.
Over the course of the game, I'd recommend taking a total of about 16-18 Bard levels. This gives you all the songs and almost all the good spells with quite a few uses of them. Great Shout is the combat Bards best friend. Shout at someone then go to town on them dual weilding while they're stunned. As soon as they wake up, Shout again - it's got a casting time of 1. If they get stunned for 2 rounds instead, you can get in a Mirror Image before re-shouting.
Going pure Bard might be a decent idea, but if you really just want access to Wail of the Banshee, Power Word: Blind and Mass Dominate, you'd probably be better going Bard26/Fighter4 so you can get weapon specialisation to up your damage. You can feel free to pump your level up attrib. points into Cha and Con as there are many good ways of upping your Str in the game . Still you want a Str of at least 18 if you're going to be any sort of real force in combat. Low con. can be overcome with Mirroe Images and other illusions that reduce the chance of getting hit. A Mirror Imaged, Blinking, Blurred Bard with the Blind Fight feat to reduce the chance of concealment misses is pretty hard to hurt, and if you drop a Power Word Blind on your enemies, most will miss automatically against one of the concealaments. Even without the Power Word, 70% concealment along with Mirror Images and possibly Improved Invis. will make you pretty hard to hurt.
Going pure Bard might be a decent idea, but if you really just want access to Wail of the Banshee, Power Word: Blind and Mass Dominate, you'd probably be better going Bard26/Fighter4 so you can get weapon specialisation to up your damage. You can feel free to pump your level up attrib. points into Cha and Con as there are many good ways of upping your Str in the game . Still you want a Str of at least 18 if you're going to be any sort of real force in combat. Low con. can be overcome with Mirroe Images and other illusions that reduce the chance of getting hit. A Mirror Imaged, Blinking, Blurred Bard with the Blind Fight feat to reduce the chance of concealment misses is pretty hard to hurt, and if you drop a Power Word Blind on your enemies, most will miss automatically against one of the concealaments. Even without the Power Word, 70% concealment along with Mirror Images and possibly Improved Invis. will make you pretty hard to hurt.
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silverdragon72
- Posts: 850
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.
...a little bit off topic:
what really would be nice for a bard:
- one or two free armoured arcana feats reaching higher levels
- or double effect when taking this feat
- or just some kind of spell-failure reduction when increasing level
...would make sense as a bard should be a light armoured fighter who can cast spells!
.
...a little bit off topic:
what really would be nice for a bard:
- one or two free armoured arcana feats reaching higher levels
- or double effect when taking this feat
- or just some kind of spell-failure reduction when increasing level
...would make sense as a bard should be a light armoured fighter who can cast spells!
.
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Wrath-Of-Egg
- Posts: 1147
- Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:30 am
- Location: Finland.. or on that other place..
Yes.. i would say that thing would be sweet!
But then there would thing called balanced classes..
Yes bard is unbalanced.. but still if that thing makes bard too strong that thing will get my no vote..
But then there would thing called balanced classes..
Yes bard is unbalanced.. but still if that thing makes bard too strong that thing will get my no vote..
_________
How can you say no to this face?
But seriusly.. Party without Bard is not party...
I can understand that SYM forum.. mentally 6 year old people is just running around with scissors on their hand.
Last edited by Wrath-Of-Egg : Today
How can you say no to this face?
But seriusly.. Party without Bard is not party...
I can understand that SYM forum.. mentally 6 year old people is just running around with scissors on their hand.
Last edited by Wrath-Of-Egg : Today
Even with an improved version of Armoured Arcana, the bard wouldn't be over powered. Doesn't Temple of Elemntal Evil allow bards to cast in light armour anyway?
I think that would be a great idea. A boost in power for the bard but not too much. A bard will never be as good a fighter as Pal/Bard/Rang/Fight as they get better Bab and HP, plus many other combat advantages. A low level bard is only any good as an archer and at high levels he's still lacking the HP and number of attacks but is compensated by his tricks. Giving the Bard a free Armoured Arcana feat every 3 levels or so means that at middle levels he can actually be a viable combatant despite his low HP and fewer attacks. Not as good a s a fighter, but still viable, just as it should be. As it is, a Rogue is a better combatant as at least they have sneak attacks and can wear armour without losing their biggest advantage.
Also, if there is one class that should get bonus feats, it's the Bard, the self proclaimed jack of all trades. Wizards and Fighters get bonus feats, and Rogues get special feats only they can take at 10th Level, but the Bard, a blend of all three don't?
I think that would be a great idea. A boost in power for the bard but not too much. A bard will never be as good a fighter as Pal/Bard/Rang/Fight as they get better Bab and HP, plus many other combat advantages. A low level bard is only any good as an archer and at high levels he's still lacking the HP and number of attacks but is compensated by his tricks. Giving the Bard a free Armoured Arcana feat every 3 levels or so means that at middle levels he can actually be a viable combatant despite his low HP and fewer attacks. Not as good a s a fighter, but still viable, just as it should be. As it is, a Rogue is a better combatant as at least they have sneak attacks and can wear armour without losing their biggest advantage.
Also, if there is one class that should get bonus feats, it's the Bard, the self proclaimed jack of all trades. Wizards and Fighters get bonus feats, and Rogues get special feats only they can take at 10th Level, but the Bard, a blend of all three don't?
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Galuf the Dwarf
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[QUOTE=Heidrek]Even with an improved version of Armoured Arcana, the bard wouldn't be over powered. Doesn't Temple of Elemntal Evil allow bards to cast in light armour anyway? [/QUOTE]
Ah, my specialty!
*reads ToEE manual*
That is correct, Heidrek.
Ah, my specialty!
*reads ToEE manual*
That is correct, Heidrek.
Dungeon Crawl Inc.: It's the most fun you can have without 3 midgets and a whip! Character stats made by your's truly!
Pitty Bards are not too hot in that game huh?
Oh someone mentioned about low Will saves from dropping Wis. While this is true, Will is one of the Bards favoured saves (along with Reflex). This offsets the loss of Wisdom. A low Wis Bard will probably have the same Will Save as a fighter or rogue of the same level. One small advantage of the Bard is they get 2 favoured saves rather than 1. There are some other classes that have this too.
There seem to be a few choices for the Fighter/Bard. The 'spell slinger who can fight' Bardx/Fighter4, the 'Fighter with Tricks' Fighterx/Bard11 and the most 'best of both worlds' Fighterx/Bard16-18.
The first option allows the full range of Bard spells with Weapon Specialisation and a few extra feats, HP and slightly better BAB from the fighter levels.
The second is the basher that uses the bard levels for some defensive spells like Mirror Image and Buffs like Emot: Hope to supliment his bashing ability.
The last is a balance of the two. It allows for almost all of the Bards good spells including the ever useful Mass Haste and Great Shout. Plenty of extra Feats and good BaB from the Fighter levels. I'm leaning toward this one at the moment. I think I'll take about 7 or 8 Bard Levels in Normal Mode then the rest in HoF.
Oh someone mentioned about low Will saves from dropping Wis. While this is true, Will is one of the Bards favoured saves (along with Reflex). This offsets the loss of Wisdom. A low Wis Bard will probably have the same Will Save as a fighter or rogue of the same level. One small advantage of the Bard is they get 2 favoured saves rather than 1. There are some other classes that have this too.
There seem to be a few choices for the Fighter/Bard. The 'spell slinger who can fight' Bardx/Fighter4, the 'Fighter with Tricks' Fighterx/Bard11 and the most 'best of both worlds' Fighterx/Bard16-18.
The first option allows the full range of Bard spells with Weapon Specialisation and a few extra feats, HP and slightly better BAB from the fighter levels.
The second is the basher that uses the bard levels for some defensive spells like Mirror Image and Buffs like Emot: Hope to supliment his bashing ability.
The last is a balance of the two. It allows for almost all of the Bards good spells including the ever useful Mass Haste and Great Shout. Plenty of extra Feats and good BaB from the Fighter levels. I'm leaning toward this one at the moment. I think I'll take about 7 or 8 Bard Levels in Normal Mode then the rest in HoF.
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