Do Star Wars Movies and Video games place too much importance on Jedis?

[Darth-Kibbles]

Well here's a rant and some comments about what I hope to see in KOTOR II. (o any future Kotor game).

When I was growing up, just a wee kid, I watched SW and ESB for the 1st time and of course loved it. I would always play Star Wars With my older sister and she would always want to be Han Solo or Princess Leia. Of course, I wanted to be Luke. I was obsessed with Jedis and I thought that If I concentrated really, really, really hard I could levitate a rock .. or My House!

My sister constantly ragged on Luke, calling him a "whiner" and telling me about her little crush on Han. I thought this was the dumbest thing ever.. "han solo??" Pshaw..he can't even levitate a pencil.

But then I watched the Trilogy when it was re-released and I finally realized what she had said all those years ago. Luke really wasn't so hot and I would rather make out with Leia than Levitate a rock. Hey, I'd rather make out with that slave girl that flirted with Boba than levitate a rock.

Anyways, moving on to something resembling a point.. I couldn't believe how much all of the SW PC games (with a few exceptions) put so much emphasis on being a Jedi. SW Jedi Knight II fo example, it starts you off as a soldier but once you get that Saber and some force speed and that's all you need!

I remember when they announced a SW Massive Online game. In the preview it said they will limit the Number of Jedis. Why? Well, they thought everyone would choose to role-play as a Jedi and the world would be boring. Well, excuse me, but I don't want to be a Jedi.

The new movies also put soooo much emphasis on jedis, disecting them to pieces and removing most of their mystery. we Have medichlorians, a new jedi council, a Padawan system, etc. There was no "everyman" in this new trilogy.

Ok, so what about Kotor. Well true, you do have the choice to forgo your force powers at any time which I have played, but you can still tell this game is oriented towards Jedis. A well made Jedi can get through this game faster and with laughable ease. There are a ton of good, perhaps overpowered, force powers.

I would love it if the new game did not intermix Jedis with "Han Solo" types. I find it unrealistic and unnecessary that a Jedi can whip out a thermo detonator for fun and then use Jedi heal and then use a land mine and then throw out some force storm. Though I know lots of people like this kind of mixing.

I would prefer if SW had "classes", "Jedi" "soldier" and "droid" and you pick a "class" and develop your character independently. Then in each class, there could be a sub-class. For example, as a soldier you could be a human or a Wookie (no armor allowed). As a droid, an Hk or a T3 type of droid. jedis would not get grenades or land minds but would start off with jedi powers.

I believe this would greatly enhance replayability and everyone would want to play it one time for each class. There could be different missions for each. For example, a human-soldier needs to seduce a beautiful princess and a Jedi needs to find a crystal to build his light-saber.

Well, what do you think Jedi fans?

[fable]

[QUOTE=Darth-Kibbles]Well here's a rant and some comments about what I hope to see in KOTOR II. (o any future Kotor game).
[/QUOTE]

That being the case, it doesn't belong in the KotoR forum, and has everything to do with the KotoR 2 forum. Where it's moving.

[vinmi pasu]

Ok first up, I kind of agree with you on this one.
Admitedly the idea of getting a soldier and turning him into a real badass is a real attraction, although i have done it with canderous, (in one of my play throughs he barely got scratched on the star forge.) but there is a certain detachment from the NPC's.
As regards the emphasis being on jedis all the time, we can only assume that a company as big as lucasarts wouldnt want to spend big bucks developing a game for a niche market.
The fact of the matter is the magical draw a jedi has. The powers they harness and the thrill of dispatching enemies with a flick of ones wrist. There isnt anyone among us who at some point hasnt wished they could fire off some force lightning. (the boss, the mother in-law, the local thug)
That is the reason why jedi based games will always outsell the others.
There have been non-jedi games though, Bounty hunter, battlegrounds, republic commando, not forgetting the starfighter and rogue squadron games.
And as I understand it, on SWG you can be anyone doing anything you choose.
The star wars galaxy is a place of fantasy, and a place where we all can live out those fantasies.
It just so happens that a lot of people want to be those magical wizards who who walk the path between darkness and light.

[Aegis]

Let's make a quick comparison here, of Star Wars games with Jedi as the main characters, to Star Wars games where Jedi are not the main characters:

Non-Jedi:
Dark Forces
Rebellion
Force Commander
Galatic Battlegrounds
The X-Wing series
The Tie Fighter series
Rogue Squadran series
Shadows of the Empire

There are a few more, that I just can't happen to think of right now, but moving on.

Jedi based:
Dark Forces: Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight 2
Jedi Academy
Force Battles
Knights of the Old Republic

Inbetween:
Star Wars: Galaxies

Now, keep in mind, there were roughly 3 or 4 games in both the Tie Fighter and X-Wing series, not to mention three Rogue Squadran games. Compare that to the Jedi based games, well...

So, it's obvious Lucas Arts isn't pumping out a mass amount of 'Jedi only' games.

Next point. Whats to stop a Jedi from using blasters, and Thermal detonators and such? Just because a Jedi is skilled with a lightsaber, and has the force, doesn't mean those things become unusable. To say otherwise would be to deny reality. They obviously favour the saber and powers, as is represented by the constant use of them, by Jedi's, but those other things are not alien to them.

Next. George Lucas didn't create this whole new system with the new Trilogy. The fans did. That is what makes Star Wars what it is, the fans. They have created the majority of the expanded universe. George Lucas is only focusing on his particular story. The focus of the story is not on the Jedi, it's on Anakin, who happens to be a Jedi. You still a large amount of other types of characters, evident in Jango Fett, the female changling, the Droid/Clone army, etc.

Lastly, the Star Wars games do have classes, with the Jedi class having it's own tree behind it completely within the D20 system. Not only that, but their is also the soldier, scoundrel and scout class, not to mention numerous prestige classes. (Mind you, there is no Droid class, and for good reason).

Anyway, I think I'm about done with this for now.

[Darth-Kibbles]

Ok but hold on here.. many of the games you mentioned as "non-jedi" are much older like the original dark forces. Therefore the technology, especially the "unreal" gaming engine had not been developed and Jedi oriented games are a new phenomenon. I believe Galactic Battlegrounds, though not centred around role-playing, did allow the creation of Jedis.Anyways, it makes much more sense for Real Time Strategy games and flight simulators to not be jedi oriented.

Next point. Whats to stop a Jedi from using blasters, and Thermal detonators and such?

Well, for one thing I'm not aware of any point in the original or new trilogy where a jedi decides to use a grenade instead of force/lightsaber. So it's not "realistic" in terms of the SW universe.

You still a large amount of other types of characters, evident in Jango Fett, the female changling, the Droid/Clone army, etc.

Sorry but I disagee, in the original Star Wars, the non-jedis had a much more significant role. Han Solo with Leia and Chewbacca and C-3po appeared together, without powers or lightsabers in about 1/2 of Empire and a huge chunk of SW.

In the new trilogy, the story revolves around a Jedi's fall from grace. In the first 2 of the new movies you see a Jedi, either Obi Wan, Anakin, Qui-Gonn or Yoda in almost every single one of the scenes.

[Aegis]

Keep in mind, that in the original trilogy, the Jedi were all but extinct, as well, with only 4 living Jedi (though, there could've been more). Two of those being Sith, and the other two being Obi Wan and Yoda. There was an active purge of the Jedi from the galaxy, which is why other characters appeared to take the spotlight. The main story, though, still focused around Luke, Vader and the Empire, it just had strong supporting characters.

As for the new trilogy, what you're arguing is that a story about a Jedi, should not actually have the Jedi in it, essentially. Well, that sort've defeats the purpose of the story being based on a Jedi.

As for many games being older than Dark Forces, I count One. Star Wars Rebellion was released just before Dark Forces was. The rest came out after Dark Forces.

Well, for one thing I'm not aware of any point in the original or new trilogy where a jedi decides to use a grenade instead of force/lightsaber. So it's not "realistic" in terms of the SW universe.

It's funny you say that, because George Lucas had a big hand in the creation of the Star Wars Universe, as well as the D20 game system based on Star Wars, and Lucas was the one who insisted that a Jedi would still maintain the ability to use such weapons. Just because they opt not to on a regular basis, doesn't mean they can't, and doesn't make it unrealistic, as you put it. If anything, it takes away from the realism, regardless of mythos, universe or story, for a certain line of people to suddenly not use weapons, just because they have a light saber and mystical powers.

To make an analogy, the forces in Iraq. The Americans are the most advancely equiped forces in the world, and yet many of them exchanged their M-16's for the AK47, simply because it suited the situation better. The same is true in the Star Wars universe. If a Jedi can't get the job done with the Force, or a light saber, but can with a Thermal Detonator, well, whats to stop that Jedi from using the massive explosive?

Your whole rant/argument strikes me as being one based on the fact you happen to not like Jedi, and are jealous of the spotlight they receive in what appears to be a particularly fond universe to you. The problem is, though, that you seem to want to ignore everything but the newest of Star Wars games, and the movies, even while they now only make up a small portion of the Star Wars universe in whole. You seem not to realize that the most successful books in the Expanded Universe are not actually the New Jedi Order books, but rather, the rogue Squadran books. Not only that, but there are numerous books detailing the exploits of Han, Leia, Chewie (until Salvatore screwed that whole thing up), not to mention a swath of other non-jedi figures.

I suggest you take a look at those, if you're tired of seeing the Jedi get all the spotlight. You'll then realize that's not the case, and the Jedi are just one cog of the universe that makes it interesting.

[Admo]

Another thing you must remember is that the Jedi are, by tradition, a defensive group only, there to protect and guard, not to conquer. Hence the light-saber in the first place, which will block almost anything, and their use of the force also relates to this ethos. They represent the chivalry and honor of real Knights of European legend and myth. Thermal detonators are also not a particularly controlled method, killing more or less everything in their blast radius, friend or foe.

It would definitely be unrealistic that they couldn't use other weapons, since anyone, more or less, can use them. Someone that had never seen a thermal detonator, once given a brief demonstration, would be able to arm and throw one - so why couldn't a Jedi?

I imagine we'll see a slightly more agressive side to the Jedi in the final part of the new trilogy, as they simply try to cope with their devastating losses and instinct for survival.

[Curry]

[QUOTE=Aegis]Let's make a quick comparison here, of Star Wars games with Jedi as the main characters, to Star Wars games where Jedi are not the main characters:

Non-Jedi:
Dark Forces
Rebellion
Force Commander
Galatic Battlegrounds
The X-Wing series
The Tie Fighter series
Rogue Squadran series
Shadows of the Empire

There are a few more, that I just can't happen to think of right now, but moving on.

Jedi based:
Dark Forces: Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight 2
Jedi Academy
Force Battles
Knights of the Old Republic

Inbetween:
Star Wars: Galaxies

[/QUOTE]

You forgot Battlefront

[fable]

If you're only going to post a line or two, Curry, please don't quote a 20-line post before it. Thanks.

[KrazyJedi]

Darth Kibbles,

Keep in mind that the Star Wars multiverse is based on a combination of space opera and the old movie serial format. Characters in both tended to be somewhat extreme and archetypical (or is it archetypal?). The Good Guys were really, really good and the Bad Guys were really, really evil. Our Hero battles impossible odds to defeat the Bad Guys and save the galaxy.

This is why Jedi and Sith come the fore in the Star Wars universe, be it movies, books or games. The Jedi are the Good Guys and the Sith are the Bad Guys and there's no doubt as to who is who. The conflicts in space opera have to be BIG. This isn't the demolitions squad chasing the police officer turned bad who blows up people on buses because he lost his pension. The spaceships are not just huge, they're TREMENDOUS, planet-busting death machines. The whole galaxy or universe is threatened if the Bad Guys aren't stopped. Furthermore, the deck is stacked in their favor and they're dealing from the bottom. Thus, having two extremely powerful factions at either end of the good-evil scale is a natural for this type of storytelling. It doesn't have to be *Jedi* per se, it could be the Space Patrol, ray guns in hand, staving off the evil minions of Dr. Strange and the Mysterons. It could be Indiana Jones hurrying to find the Ark before it falls into the hands of the Nazis and enables them to take over the world. E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series, if you can find it, is another excellent example.

Using more mundane weaponry would tend to dilute the heroic and operatic qualities of the Jedi and Sith. That said, there was never any intimation in any of the movies that Jedi could not or would not use more mundane weapons. In fact, Luke uses the Force to grab a perfectly ordinary blaster then tries to shoot Jabba in Return of the Jedi. In Empire Strikes Back, he chases Boba Fett and the Imperials through Cloud City with blaster in hand, not pulling out the lightsaber until he realizes he's up against Vader. He defeats the Rancor by *throwing* a regular rock at the door control instead of flicking it with a bit of the Force or using the Force to hurl a rock at it. Obi-wan used some Force-enhanced fisticuffs in his fight with Jango Fett. But a lightsaber requires the wielder use the Force to be effective and able to win through overwhelming odds. It makes for a much tighter story as space opera. It also gets the opponents in much closer proximity, opening up many stroytelling options in action and dialogue.

Knights of the Old Republic is part game, part interactive movie. It is heavily story-driven, so some difficulty is sacrificed to allow the player to progress through the story without too much trouble. However, it is entrirely possible to limit Force influence by using fewer Force powers and more mundane weapons (which you seem to have tried from your postings), making a more difficult but entirely playable game. Your character can be a soldier/guardian and team up with Canderous and HK-47 to sweep aside everyone who stands between you and your rightful destiny as ruler of the galaxy. On the other hand, you can be a scoundrel/consular then team up with Bastila and Jolee, using the Force and your lightsabers to overcome impossible odds and save the galaxy from the clutches of Malak. It's up to the player. This is a difficult balance to strike, and the quality of the result speaks volumes of the design team. On the other hand, such a format wouldn't work at all for a book/movie, nor should it. Thus it makes perfect sense for Jedi to dominate when present in a movie or book, but be much more flexible in something like SW:KOTOR.

[Darth-Kibbles]

Characters in both tended to be somewhat extreme and archetypical (or is it archetypal?). The Good Guys were really, really good and the Bad Guys were really, really evil.

Ahh but a main hero, Han Solo was not extremely good or evil. Also, Darth Vader is another example of a mix.


The whole galaxy or universe is threatened if the Bad Guys aren't stopped. Furthermore, the deck is stacked in their favor and they're dealing from the bottom.

I just don't see why this has to mean the story must be focused on Jedis. As you refer to other movies, I will do the same. Do you watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Well one point that is widely agreed upon is that season 6 and 7 were not as good as the 1st 3 seasons, similar to the idea that the 1st trilogy is better so far than the new trilogy. I theorized that the reason why is because they lack the "everyman". No Han Solo and Chewie in the new Star Wars. Buffy became focused upon Spike, Willow and Buffy and left out Dawn, Giles and Xander.


In fact, Luke uses the Force to grab a perfectly ordinary blaster then tries to shoot Jabba in Return of the Jedi. In Empire Strikes Back, he chases Boba Fett and the Imperials through Cloud City

ahh, but Luke was not a Jedi during the original trilogy, until the very end. The original trilogy was not "jedi-centred" and that's one subtle reason why I feel it was superior to the new trilogy.

however, it is entrirely possible to limit Force influence by using fewer Force powers and more mundane weapons (which you seem to have tried from your postings), making a more difficult but entirely playable game

Well yes, you can do it but I think the key is that you are playing the game differently than it was intended in order to challenge yourself. If you are doing this, the game should have been harder in the first place. A soldier would have had their own strengths and weaknesses like a Jedi and the gameplay fom start to finish would be different. This would create a more natural challenge with more replayability.

[KrazyJedi]

[QUOTE=Darth-Kibbles]
Ahh but a main hero, Han Solo was not extremely good or evil. Also, Darth Vader is another example of a mix.[/QUOTE]

Not really. It's not necessarily the *personality* of the character, but what *side* he is on. In space opera, you can have a character who isn't so nice personally, but fights with the Good Guys, and there's really no doubt about who he's working with. You KNEW Han Solo was one of the Good Guys, even if he didn't admit it to himself for a while. He had a shady past, but also a heart of gold, which is a stock space opera character.

Throught the first three movies, *Vader* was evil, through and through, until his redemption. Anakin is still fighting with the Good Guys, and when he falls, he'll be part of the Bad Guys. Either way, you have no doubt which side of the fence he falls on.

Incidentally, never watched Buffy, so no comment.

[QUOTE=Darth-Kibbles]
ahh, but Luke was not a Jedi during the original trilogy, until the very end. The original trilogy was not "jedi-centred" and that's one subtle reason why I feel it was superior to the new trilogy.
[/QUOTE]

I think the original trilogy was better myself, as well.

However, your point was you had never seen a Jedi use mundane weapons in the movies, and Luke clearly did even when he was trained as one (remember he uses the Force to grab an ordinary blaster pistol in Jabba's palace). He was most certainly a Padawan, which is no more than a Jedi-in-training. I would argue he became a Jedi *Knight* at the end of Return of the Jedi. Yet both Padawans and Knights are considered Jedi.

[QUOTE=Darth-Kibbles]
Well yes, you can do it but I think the key is that you are playing the game differently than it was intended in order to challenge yourself. If you are doing this, the game should have been harder in the first place. A soldier would have had their own strengths and weaknesses like a Jedi and the gameplay fom start to finish would be different. This would create a more natural challenge with more replayability.[/QUOTE]

They DO have their own strengths and weaknesses. Soldiers wear armor and use big weapons to fight their way through. Powerful Jedi can't wear heavy armor (or they limit the Force Powers they can use if they do) and use a combination of the Force and melee to win. Scoundrels can talk their way out of many things and use Stealth to sneak right past their enemies. The game is so finely balanced that sometimes it's difficult to be aware of these things.

Anyway, dragging this back to topic, the Star Wars saga as a whole is focused on Jedi because they are so central to the story. Space opera relies heavily on the Good-Evil dichotomy, which the Jedi provide. Light Jedi are good, Dark Jedi are bad. This is unlike, say Dune, which is very convoluted and political. You have a similar grand scale and some good guys and bad guys, but it's not always obvious who is who and everybody has their own agenda.

[maverick8088]

Actually,the original trilogy was focused on the Jedi, it's just that there weren't as many of them. I mean, Sidious(Emporer) and Vader were both Sith, while Luke, Yoda and Ben were Jedi, but they were the main characters, not Han Solo. However in the the new movies, there are literally thousands of Jedi and the story is about their fall and the Empire's rise. A sith lord and a fallen Jedi were key to those events so it's only natural they would be the main focus.

As to the Weapons a Jedi uses, Luke said in Shadows of the Empire that once he became good enough with his saber he wouldn't bother carrying a blaster, and when he entered Xizor's castle he left it behind. He also said that MOST jedi of the Old Republic disdained to carry a blaster. But He didn't say all. Since you are playing as a character who is (re-)discovering his Jedi Talents late in life, it is perfectly reasonable to see him/her throw a grenade or fire a gun.

On more humorous note, Darth Kibbles, do you fart before you make a statement? 'Coz everytime you try to make a point you say "Ahh" first.

Ahh but a main hero

ahh, but Luke was not a Jedi

A little more fiber in your diet will clear that right up.