@taltamir
Rock and clay have never been part of a living creature, unless that living creature swallowed some dirt and then excreted it. Silicates are INorganic molecules. Check with a Chemistry textbook if you need more details. Diamonds are compressed carbon, and as such, are organic. Furthermore, the time frame required to make a diamond is incredibly long - the carbon molecules in any diamond in existance are going to be a long way removed from any living being.
Regardless, as I previously said, remember Rule 0 - if you (as the GM) don't like something about the worldsetting or rules then change it! It is entirely up to you.
As per the 3rd Ed rules, Necromancy is generally seen as evil, for the reasons we have outlined already. Go and check the Eberron campaign book, in that the elves keep their ancestors alive through Necromancy and it is not seen as evil (it is, in fact, seen as good).
Cheers,
TGHO
Necromancers
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The Great Hairy
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Not ALL rocks are silicate, most are composed of many various materials, take a vulcanic eruption for example, it will cover everything in its path, including all animals (who are too slow to escape) and all plants, the trees, the shrubs, all of them. It will then cool down and form a rock formation, throughtout the rocks will be traces of organic matter. This is what I was talking about. It might be possible to get your hands on some pure material, but not very likely.
Also organic and living isnt the same, Living creatures are composed mostly of organic matter, but contain MANY other various elements, for example our blood contains a bunch of iron, our bones and nails are also prime locations for non organic matter (or that of other creatures). On the other hands, there are many organic things that arent alive. Like diamonds. and artificatiall or naturally occuring organic compounds.
Also organic and living isnt the same, Living creatures are composed mostly of organic matter, but contain MANY other various elements, for example our blood contains a bunch of iron, our bones and nails are also prime locations for non organic matter (or that of other creatures). On the other hands, there are many organic things that arent alive. Like diamonds. and artificatiall or naturally occuring organic compounds.
I do not have a superman comples; for I am God, not superman!
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The Great Hairy
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I'm not going to discuss basic Chemistry here, I'm just going to suggest you go to the local library and read up on the subject.yada yada you accuse me of not knowing any chemistry/physics/biology whatever, I explain what I do know, you repeat, I repeat, and so on...
Listen, I do know chemistry, I do know biology, I do not phsics... I would not be presumptious and think that you know nothing about those subject, but instead I have the brains to realise we are not communicating with each other clearly.
Its obviously a matter of definitions, and semantics.
The definition I am using is:
Rock n.
Relatively hard, naturally formed mineral or petrified matter; stone.
A relatively small piece or fragment of such material.
A relatively large body of such material, as a cliff or peak.
A naturally formed aggregate of mineral matter constituting a significant part of the earth's crust.
One that is similar to or suggestive of a mass of stone in stability, firmness, or dependability: The family has been his rock during this difficult time.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rock
Well, actually I was thinking very slightly differenltly then this defintion, but it somewhat official and I thought you would like it...
So drop your condensating attitude. This is your second post a row in which you accuse me of not knowing basic sciences.
Listen, I do know chemistry, I do know biology, I do not phsics... I would not be presumptious and think that you know nothing about those subject, but instead I have the brains to realise we are not communicating with each other clearly.
Its obviously a matter of definitions, and semantics.
The definition I am using is:
Rock n.
Relatively hard, naturally formed mineral or petrified matter; stone.
A relatively small piece or fragment of such material.
A relatively large body of such material, as a cliff or peak.
A naturally formed aggregate of mineral matter constituting a significant part of the earth's crust.
One that is similar to or suggestive of a mass of stone in stability, firmness, or dependability: The family has been his rock during this difficult time.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rock
Well, actually I was thinking very slightly differenltly then this defintion, but it somewhat official and I thought you would like it...
So drop your condensating attitude. This is your second post a row in which you accuse me of not knowing basic sciences.
I do not have a superman comples; for I am God, not superman!
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jopperm2
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Waxing Metaphysical, no I promise I'm not really a necromancer..
Undead and constructs have some very fundemental differences. A construct acts very much like a robot. It does exactly what it is programmed or commanded to do and nothing more. Undead do what they are told for as long as they are commanded, once released from command they have a will of thier own. They are not magically powered like a construct. They are powered by negative energy. It's like the dark side of the Force, made up of Rage and Hatred.. If left to their own, undead will seek to destroy life whenever possible and further whatever evil they can comprehend. One could make a Golem out of bone but it would be no more a skeleton than a flesh Golem is a zombie. Now channeling energy is obviously an aligned act, good for positive, evil for negative, but what about Animate Dead? Since it is also a Wizard/Sorcerer spell it may have had the potential to be neutrally aligned. Take a look at the spell Chill Touch. It causes a negative energy field to form around the hand in effect. The arcane caster in question does not have to personnally connect with the plane of origin of the energy and channel it through himself to get it to come into existance like a cleric does. He merely manipulates metaphysical forces to bring over a small measured amount of it to the material plane and use it. Therefore it's use is not a matter of good vs. evil.. The energy can be used against an evil foe just as easily as a good one.. We are thus fighting fire with fire so to speak. So wouldn't using an animated corpse to slay an evil creature be the same thing? No. The idea of creating undead is in escence to bring about the being of a creture of pure evil whose life force is made of evil energy for the sole purpose of enslaving it and forcing it to do your bidding even though it desires nothing else but to break free of your control and destroy you and the rest of the despicable living creatures on the disgusting plane you brought it to. Doesn't sound all that holy to me.. Just thought I would weigh in.. My games tend to be very realistic so I make a definable science of everything..
Undead and constructs have some very fundemental differences. A construct acts very much like a robot. It does exactly what it is programmed or commanded to do and nothing more. Undead do what they are told for as long as they are commanded, once released from command they have a will of thier own. They are not magically powered like a construct. They are powered by negative energy. It's like the dark side of the Force, made up of Rage and Hatred.. If left to their own, undead will seek to destroy life whenever possible and further whatever evil they can comprehend. One could make a Golem out of bone but it would be no more a skeleton than a flesh Golem is a zombie. Now channeling energy is obviously an aligned act, good for positive, evil for negative, but what about Animate Dead? Since it is also a Wizard/Sorcerer spell it may have had the potential to be neutrally aligned. Take a look at the spell Chill Touch. It causes a negative energy field to form around the hand in effect. The arcane caster in question does not have to personnally connect with the plane of origin of the energy and channel it through himself to get it to come into existance like a cleric does. He merely manipulates metaphysical forces to bring over a small measured amount of it to the material plane and use it. Therefore it's use is not a matter of good vs. evil.. The energy can be used against an evil foe just as easily as a good one.. We are thus fighting fire with fire so to speak. So wouldn't using an animated corpse to slay an evil creature be the same thing? No. The idea of creating undead is in escence to bring about the being of a creture of pure evil whose life force is made of evil energy for the sole purpose of enslaving it and forcing it to do your bidding even though it desires nothing else but to break free of your control and destroy you and the rest of the despicable living creatures on the disgusting plane you brought it to. Doesn't sound all that holy to me.. Just thought I would weigh in.. My games tend to be very realistic so I make a definable science of everything..
"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security,
will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
which goes against everything dnd stands for.
Dnd is designed to appeal to the hack and slash community, everything is designed with one goal, balance in killing powers. After designing that, they add on to it explanations and story, which almost ALWAYS conflict and make absolutly no sense at all.
Dnd is designed to appeal to the hack and slash community, everything is designed with one goal, balance in killing powers. After designing that, they add on to it explanations and story, which almost ALWAYS conflict and make absolutly no sense at all.
I do not have a superman comples; for I am God, not superman!
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jopperm2
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I disagree.. Hackmaster is designed for that..
Have you ever read Forgotten Realms? There is so much information there that you know exactly how magic works and can use that to get a lot of great RP..
We have come up with a lot of great solutions in games I have been in because we can think in terms of how things work.
Have you ever read Forgotten Realms? There is so much information there that you know exactly how magic works and can use that to get a lot of great RP..
We have come up with a lot of great solutions in games I have been in because we can think in terms of how things work.
"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security,
will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
EX1: Sorcerer vs. Wizard. How sorc requires components. etc
EX2: Arcane Spell Failure.
EX3: HP
EX4: Poison and backstab (you can charge a naked level 20 fighter in the bathtub, heavily armed, with poisoned daggers, and he will likely win if you are 10 or so levels below him).
EX5: Specialized wizards. they decide to give up a school to focus on another... oh, and they can never undo it, they also cannot use ANY items made of these schools, there is no possibility whatsoever for gaining a single spell you like from a forbidden school... AND, the explanation is always "the player chooses to give it up to get those extra powers, they know the cost" even though its supposedly them just not "bothering" with a school.
I wouldnt go into a debate and what exactly is wrong with each of these roleplaying wise, if you checking wizards forums you will see PAGES upon pages of it.. artcles, whatever.
EX2: Arcane Spell Failure.
EX3: HP
EX4: Poison and backstab (you can charge a naked level 20 fighter in the bathtub, heavily armed, with poisoned daggers, and he will likely win if you are 10 or so levels below him).
EX5: Specialized wizards. they decide to give up a school to focus on another... oh, and they can never undo it, they also cannot use ANY items made of these schools, there is no possibility whatsoever for gaining a single spell you like from a forbidden school... AND, the explanation is always "the player chooses to give it up to get those extra powers, they know the cost" even though its supposedly them just not "bothering" with a school.
I wouldnt go into a debate and what exactly is wrong with each of these roleplaying wise, if you checking wizards forums you will see PAGES upon pages of it.. artcles, whatever.
I do not have a superman comples; for I am God, not superman!
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jopperm2
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I agree with some of that, but like I said, I come up w/ answers to those questions and use them in my game.. But anyway, that's for another thread.. This one is about how Undead are purely evil and some other things are not.
"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security,
will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
Heh, alright...
And just for the record, I DO come up with explanations, most of which are far more creative then the average person's, In fact I have been posting those on the wizards forums..
BUT.
1. I have to come up with my own explanations, which just validates the point that the current explanation is a thin "flavor" added to a predisigned balanced for combat system (rather then make up a setting and build combat around it).
2. Read the DMG, all it talks about is balancing (not even bothering to mention combat since its obvious thats what its speaking of...)
3. Even I cannot explain some things, as all possible explanations conflict since the things are WAY too far off (or rather, all non cheesy explanations... aside from the "a deity decided it shall be so and altered reality to make it so")
While not there are certain games more notorious in this regard, DND is right up there.
And just for the record, I DO come up with explanations, most of which are far more creative then the average person's, In fact I have been posting those on the wizards forums..
BUT.
1. I have to come up with my own explanations, which just validates the point that the current explanation is a thin "flavor" added to a predisigned balanced for combat system (rather then make up a setting and build combat around it).
2. Read the DMG, all it talks about is balancing (not even bothering to mention combat since its obvious thats what its speaking of...)
3. Even I cannot explain some things, as all possible explanations conflict since the things are WAY too far off (or rather, all non cheesy explanations... aside from the "a deity decided it shall be so and altered reality to make it so")
While not there are certain games more notorious in this regard, DND is right up there.
I do not have a superman comples; for I am God, not superman!
As far as the demon/devil thing and why they are inherently evil..they come from planes that are evil to a certain degree..I think demons are chaotic evil and devils are lawful evil..or maybe it is the other way around. But that's because the planes they come from are lawful evil and chaotic evil.
TECHNICALLY speaking from a Forgotten Realms perspective..I believe Orcs were also brought into Faerun from another plane..I just don't know if it was an aligned plane or a general plane like Faerun is on.
If a demon or devil was perhaps born on Faerun then I can see them having a little more room for alignment alteration..but otherwise not.
And people consider playing with bodies (necromancy) evil because even though the person has been dead long enough for all it's flesh to be removed..you are still playing with their left over corpse that actually used to be a specific person, and people don't like that. Sure, dirt is made from formerly living material..but it isn't a whole person..it's a millimeter worth of flesh from bob here, a bone chip of frank there, maybe some hair from julie..etc. It isn't bob or frank or julie, it's just a very small amount of what they formerly were to the point where there is no recognition at all of who they were.
Making a flesh golem or gone golem might be a little messed up too though, heh. But I could have sworn you had to have access to necromantic spells to create those.
TECHNICALLY speaking from a Forgotten Realms perspective..I believe Orcs were also brought into Faerun from another plane..I just don't know if it was an aligned plane or a general plane like Faerun is on.
If a demon or devil was perhaps born on Faerun then I can see them having a little more room for alignment alteration..but otherwise not.
And people consider playing with bodies (necromancy) evil because even though the person has been dead long enough for all it's flesh to be removed..you are still playing with their left over corpse that actually used to be a specific person, and people don't like that. Sure, dirt is made from formerly living material..but it isn't a whole person..it's a millimeter worth of flesh from bob here, a bone chip of frank there, maybe some hair from julie..etc. It isn't bob or frank or julie, it's just a very small amount of what they formerly were to the point where there is no recognition at all of who they were.
Making a flesh golem or gone golem might be a little messed up too though, heh. But I could have sworn you had to have access to necromantic spells to create those.