Religion
Religion
So all, lets hear some lively discussion on religion, I want to hear what you have to say. I myself hate religion, having lost my faith very young.what are your thoughts
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fable
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Losing the faith your parents have thrust upon you doesn't necessarily equate to hating religion, you know, even if nothing replaces it. 
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Blacktears
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having no religon and having no beleif system are differnt things to me so I fully except my beleifs and live by them but I worship no idol god or philosiphy. But if you must look to made up or other wise unseeable figures then I would always choose the Wiccan belief system over anyother
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fable
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Guys, please: let's not turn this into a dump-on-religion ground, okay? There are many people who believe in various religions, and they don't feel that their dieties are "made up." If you want to insult 'em, go offline and do it in the privacy of your own home.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
I don't hate religion. I hate the things some humans do in the name of religion.
Religions can in my view provide many good things to people as well, for instance giving comfort by, amongst other things, palcing a form of responcibility for uncontrollable events; For instance complicated illness, death, in the family or what not.
It makes it somewhat easier for some people to cope with a loved one being terminal ill, if the concept of "greater meaning" is introduced, which can help ease some emotional pain.
There are many other possible examples of such things, but I don't feel the need to bring them up .
Personally - I have no need for such comfort. I rest "in myself" so to speak. I accept not having control over things and my psyche is strong enough to accept whatever bad things that have happend and likely still can happen to me. (mental strenght is my main positive charactertrait, in this world it seems)
But I can also see where others might feel the need to turn to things like religion.
The place where things go wrong in my view - is is when religion is used as a fundamental truth ("God" says this and that, so it is right and everything else is wrong) and/or used to suppress other peoples views and oppinions.
I hate when religious fanatics uses their religion as reason for opressing or killing somebody else, but I don't hate the religon as a consequnce thereoff.
The world would be much better in my view if people just decided that religion was a personal matter, and that each religion was equal. But that will never happen I fear - unless something external happens to change the behaviour of the human race
Religions can in my view provide many good things to people as well, for instance giving comfort by, amongst other things, palcing a form of responcibility for uncontrollable events; For instance complicated illness, death, in the family or what not.
It makes it somewhat easier for some people to cope with a loved one being terminal ill, if the concept of "greater meaning" is introduced, which can help ease some emotional pain.
There are many other possible examples of such things, but I don't feel the need to bring them up
.Personally - I have no need for such comfort. I rest "in myself" so to speak. I accept not having control over things and my psyche is strong enough to accept whatever bad things that have happend and likely still can happen to me. (mental strenght is my main positive charactertrait, in this world it seems)
But I can also see where others might feel the need to turn to things like religion.
The place where things go wrong in my view - is is when religion is used as a fundamental truth ("God" says this and that, so it is right and everything else is wrong) and/or used to suppress other peoples views and oppinions.
I hate when religious fanatics uses their religion as reason for opressing or killing somebody else, but I don't hate the religon as a consequnce thereoff.
The world would be much better in my view if people just decided that religion was a personal matter, and that each religion was equal. But that will never happen I fear - unless something external happens to change the behaviour of the human race
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fable
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[QUOTE=Xandax]I rest "in myself" so to speak.[/QUOTE]
I like this a lot, and I would say it's true of my lack of expectations or any need for comfort from religion. That said, I *do* believe in intuited truths of existence that can't be rationally understood or measured. I consider myself a religious person in terms of the way my beliefs come from within me, rather than from any external dogma. (As I've mentioned before in SYM several times, I'm a trad/Gardnerian witch and Wiccan, initiated almost 27 years ago.)
Lack of dogma doesn't mean my religious views or the tools I use to appreciate the universe are unstructured. I have a clear set of opinions; but as I'm just as limited in my perceptions as anyone else, I'd like to think I know better than to try and present my personal truths as universal revelations.
This reminds me of an old Kahlil Gibran anecdote, written before he began thinking he was a gifted saint. It seems there were two demons watching, invisibly, as a human stumbled upon a piece of Ultimate Truth lying on the ground. The human recognized it for what it was, and fled, overjoyed.
"You screwed up there," smirked one demon to the other, who was in charge of that area. "You left that Ultimate Truth lying about, and now he's seen it."
"Yes," replied the second, "and I'll have the finest time in the universe helping him turn it into an evangelical religion."
I like this a lot, and I would say it's true of my lack of expectations or any need for comfort from religion. That said, I *do* believe in intuited truths of existence that can't be rationally understood or measured. I consider myself a religious person in terms of the way my beliefs come from within me, rather than from any external dogma. (As I've mentioned before in SYM several times, I'm a trad/Gardnerian witch and Wiccan, initiated almost 27 years ago.)
Lack of dogma doesn't mean my religious views or the tools I use to appreciate the universe are unstructured. I have a clear set of opinions; but as I'm just as limited in my perceptions as anyone else, I'd like to think I know better than to try and present my personal truths as universal revelations.
This reminds me of an old Kahlil Gibran anecdote, written before he began thinking he was a gifted saint. It seems there were two demons watching, invisibly, as a human stumbled upon a piece of Ultimate Truth lying on the ground. The human recognized it for what it was, and fled, overjoyed.
"You screwed up there," smirked one demon to the other, who was in charge of that area. "You left that Ultimate Truth lying about, and now he's seen it."
"Yes," replied the second, "and I'll have the finest time in the universe helping him turn it into an evangelical religion."
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
I personally am a Christian, which is what I chose to be (not thrust on me). Out of interest I don't actually consider it a religion, but most people think of it as one so I don't mind it being called one.
[QUOTE=Xandax]The world would be much better in my view if people just decided that religion was a personal matter, and that each religion was equal.[/QUOTE]Do you mean that all religions are right? Because I don't think that actually works. If some people say we die once and are judged, and some people say we are reincarnated until we reach nirvana, I don't think it's possible for both people to actually be right. They can both believe they are right but there are things that are true or false regardless of what people believe. Or did you mean something else by religions being 'equal'?
[QUOTE=Xandax]The place where things go wrong in my view - is is when religion is used as a fundamental truth ("God" says this and that, so it is right and everything else is wrong) and/or used to suppress other peoples views and oppinions.[/QUOTE]Sorry to have to clarify everything, but do you mean there is a better place to look for fundamental truths, or that there can be no fundamental truths?
[QUOTE=Xandax]The world would be much better in my view if people just decided that religion was a personal matter, and that each religion was equal.[/QUOTE]Do you mean that all religions are right? Because I don't think that actually works. If some people say we die once and are judged, and some people say we are reincarnated until we reach nirvana, I don't think it's possible for both people to actually be right. They can both believe they are right but there are things that are true or false regardless of what people believe. Or did you mean something else by religions being 'equal'?
[QUOTE=Xandax]The place where things go wrong in my view - is is when religion is used as a fundamental truth ("God" says this and that, so it is right and everything else is wrong) and/or used to suppress other peoples views and oppinions.[/QUOTE]Sorry to have to clarify everything, but do you mean there is a better place to look for fundamental truths, or that there can be no fundamental truths?
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[QUOTE=Arrylium]<snip>
Do you mean that all religions are right? Because I don't think that actually works. If some people say we die once and are judged, and some people say we are reincarnated until we reach nirvana, I don't think it's possible for both people to actually be right. They can both believe they are right but there are things that are true or false regardless of what people believe. Or did you mean something else by religions being 'equal'?
<snip>
[/QUOTE]
I don't see or belive any God or religion to be the one truth.
To me, the notion of a singular (in the aspect of religion, due to some religions holding more then one deity) divine entity is unlogical, amongst other things, because of the diversity and history of the human race. It would seem unlikely that chrisitanity (for example) would have found the ultimate thruth when thinking it might as well be Hinduisme or Budhisme that has - or any other religion that exsist or have existed.
Thus I don't "belive" that what any one religion states/expresses holds more validation for other people then what any other given religion or beliefsystem does. I see religion and various other beliefsystems as a guide in how one wishs to live his or her life, and as long as other peoples belifsystem dosen't infringe on others peoples personal freedoms, then they all hold equal validation in my view - for the given person that belive in it.
It is when people try to enforce their "religous/beliefsystem rules" on others that I think the problem arises.
I don't hold more validation to neither reincarnation then I do an afterlife in the Christian manner of thinking, and I can't deem that one is "better" then the other.
[QUOTE=Arrylium]<snip>
Sorry to have to clarify everything, but do you mean there is a better place to look for fundamental truths, or that there can be no fundamental truths?[/QUOTE]
Fundamental truths is a very tricky and abstract concept, because in our diversified and uneven world, there dosen't seem to be any fundamental truths.
One also needs to clarify in wich aspect of the existance that we view truths - is it truth in human society, physical existance, the universe etc.
When speaking of religion -I would very much expect it to be the first - truth in a human society. Thus - for instance: "killing is bad".
Truths in that manner are - as it seems currently and historically - very much a subjective matter. What one person in the rich western world holds as a truth, dosen't neasecarily apply to a poor starving outcast in a 3rd world country.
Any "truths" that is held today didn't apply to human beings living in the ancient Egypt or Rome. And I strongly doubt it would apply to human beings living 5000 years from now (if we as a race still exists).
What we live in now is a snapshot of our history - and intermission - and I am not arrogant (I don't really want to use arrogant because of the negative meaning, but it is the only word I currently can find that matches) to declare that I know better then people that will come after me.
Thus - currently - I'd have to say that I don't belive there is or can be a fundamental truth. Now I agree with for instance the concept that murder is bad, but I don't think I hold the truth that murder at instances can't be justifiable.
(I hope some sence can be made of my rambelings )
Do you mean that all religions are right? Because I don't think that actually works. If some people say we die once and are judged, and some people say we are reincarnated until we reach nirvana, I don't think it's possible for both people to actually be right. They can both believe they are right but there are things that are true or false regardless of what people believe. Or did you mean something else by religions being 'equal'?
<snip>
[/QUOTE]
I don't see or belive any God or religion to be the one truth.
To me, the notion of a singular (in the aspect of religion, due to some religions holding more then one deity) divine entity is unlogical, amongst other things, because of the diversity and history of the human race. It would seem unlikely that chrisitanity (for example) would have found the ultimate thruth when thinking it might as well be Hinduisme or Budhisme that has - or any other religion that exsist or have existed.
Thus I don't "belive" that what any one religion states/expresses holds more validation for other people then what any other given religion or beliefsystem does. I see religion and various other beliefsystems as a guide in how one wishs to live his or her life, and as long as other peoples belifsystem dosen't infringe on others peoples personal freedoms, then they all hold equal validation in my view - for the given person that belive in it.
It is when people try to enforce their "religous/beliefsystem rules" on others that I think the problem arises.
I don't hold more validation to neither reincarnation then I do an afterlife in the Christian manner of thinking, and I can't deem that one is "better" then the other.
[QUOTE=Arrylium]<snip>
Sorry to have to clarify everything, but do you mean there is a better place to look for fundamental truths, or that there can be no fundamental truths?[/QUOTE]
Fundamental truths is a very tricky and abstract concept, because in our diversified and uneven world, there dosen't seem to be any fundamental truths.
One also needs to clarify in wich aspect of the existance that we view truths - is it truth in human society, physical existance, the universe etc.
When speaking of religion -I would very much expect it to be the first - truth in a human society. Thus - for instance: "killing is bad".
Truths in that manner are - as it seems currently and historically - very much a subjective matter. What one person in the rich western world holds as a truth, dosen't neasecarily apply to a poor starving outcast in a 3rd world country.
Any "truths" that is held today didn't apply to human beings living in the ancient Egypt or Rome. And I strongly doubt it would apply to human beings living 5000 years from now (if we as a race still exists).
What we live in now is a snapshot of our history - and intermission - and I am not arrogant (I don't really want to use arrogant because of the negative meaning, but it is the only word I currently can find that matches) to declare that I know better then people that will come after me.
Thus - currently - I'd have to say that I don't belive there is or can be a fundamental truth. Now I agree with for instance the concept that murder is bad, but I don't think I hold the truth that murder at instances can't be justifiable.
(I hope some sence can be made of my rambelings
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I agree with whoever made the point, I dont truly hate religion, I hate what people are willing to do in the name of it, for example the slaughter of Incas and other native peoples by the Spaniards, in an attempt to "cure the ehathen savages of their barbaric beliefs" that is actually something taken from a writing by Pizzaro
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Sean The Owner
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My veiw on different christian religions isn't good at times, truthfully i also dont like what people do for their religion and thats just say about the people who belive that going out and punching me standing at the bus stop in my school uniform just because of what religion they belive i am.
In Northern Ireland this is a big problem many people get murdered or maimed every day and thats children as well and its for no reason other than people being angry at the so called enforced border on Ireland and people being angry at the people who are angry about the border which means that since the people of the country belive they are rite we had a hell of o load of shooting here in the past and that is why religion is lost on me and i dont particularly care.
In Northern Ireland this is a big problem many people get murdered or maimed every day and thats children as well and its for no reason other than people being angry at the so called enforced border on Ireland and people being angry at the people who are angry about the border which means that since the people of the country belive they are rite we had a hell of o load of shooting here in the past and that is why religion is lost on me and i dont particularly care.
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Lookie!
I tend to appear briefly and disappear very quickly after that, try not to let it bother you.
Me = Muslim. Everybody pretty much knows my views. But if you want a more detailed explanation do ask.
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
The term "religion" has, in my mind, developed a rather negative connotation over time. Rather than being an indicator of people losing interest in spiritual matters, I think it more has to do with the oppression that entire peoples and cultures suffered by the hands of certain spiritually-oriented groups with an aggressive interest in their own secular advancement. A gentle way of putting it, but an accurate one I think.
Let's face it, a good number of people could care less about spiritual matters. For many, their connection with the spiritual is one forged in their childhood - taught, not acquired. There are some who progress from what they have been taught by those who reared them into something that is their own, discovering for themselves a faith. But for the majority, I think, the spiritual is not spiritual to them - it's quite material, concerning itself with material goals and motivations (i.e, many people attend huge Baptist churches in the South primarily to make business contacts). Perhaps this is where the problem lies, and why so many spiritually-oriented organizations are indistiguishable from an aggressive corporate entity in the dog-eat-dog world of business.
Myself, I was brought up in a religiously indifferent household. I spent most of my spare time while in the house reading encyclopedias and my older sister's science fiction collection. It wasn't until later in life that I encountered religion and made my own observations and decisions concerning it. I don't particularly care for religion as it is known today.
Let's face it, a good number of people could care less about spiritual matters. For many, their connection with the spiritual is one forged in their childhood - taught, not acquired. There are some who progress from what they have been taught by those who reared them into something that is their own, discovering for themselves a faith. But for the majority, I think, the spiritual is not spiritual to them - it's quite material, concerning itself with material goals and motivations (i.e, many people attend huge Baptist churches in the South primarily to make business contacts). Perhaps this is where the problem lies, and why so many spiritually-oriented organizations are indistiguishable from an aggressive corporate entity in the dog-eat-dog world of business.
Myself, I was brought up in a religiously indifferent household. I spent most of my spare time while in the house reading encyclopedias and my older sister's science fiction collection. It wasn't until later in life that I encountered religion and made my own observations and decisions concerning it. I don't particularly care for religion as it is known today.
CYNIC, n.:
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
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corsair
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ahhh, how I have missed the ol' religion discussions. Anyways, I am a believer in Christ. I don't think "religion" is what I have. I have a personal relationship with my ressurected Lord and Savior. I don't need to pray to a statue, go to chruch everyday, or eat a wafer to show my love to my God. All he requires is that I follow his Holy Word. This includes such things as: Praying, living a pure life, going to church (not because it is neccessary for Salvation, but because his word tells us not to forsake the gathering of ourselves (thats somewhere in Hebrews 11) and it is great to be with other beilievers to worship Him together), witnessing (yes, im one of those people that likes to go up to people and talk to them about Heaven and Hell (btw, check out http://www.needgod.com)) and other things. I know a lot of people that hate relegion. I don't mind that, because religion has done some horrible things. You know, the funny thing is, people say that they dont have a relegion, and that they don't believe anything. Well, webster defines relegion as
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
Not beliveing in God is a belief that most Athiest and Agnostics hold with ardor and faith. Im not sure where I am going with this post, but its turned into a general religion discussion... (I guess thats what the topic starter wanted) Anyways, maybe I will get some more coherent thoughts together later...
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
Not beliveing in God is a belief that most Athiest and Agnostics hold with ardor and faith. Im not sure where I am going with this post, but its turned into a general religion discussion... (I guess thats what the topic starter wanted) Anyways, maybe I will get some more coherent thoughts together later...
John 3:16-17
16-For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, so that anyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
17-Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
16-For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, so that anyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
17-Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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fable
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Not beliveing in God is a belief that most Athiest and Agnostics hold with ardor and faith.
Corsair, if you're going to start quoting Webster about religion, you should look up other words describing various religions before you start ascribing qualities to 'em they don't have. Agnosticism, for example, is the uncertainty about whether any deity exists. You can hardly hold to tis "with ardor and faith." You can try, but it hardly any agnostic I'm aware of, does.
Corsair, if you're going to start quoting Webster about religion, you should look up other words describing various religions before you start ascribing qualities to 'em they don't have. Agnosticism, for example, is the uncertainty about whether any deity exists. You can hardly hold to tis "with ardor and faith." You can try, but it hardly any agnostic I'm aware of, does.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Maharlika
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My thoughts...
I'm Roman Catholic. I see religion as a personal relationship with God.
Not the rites and ceremonies.
Not the politics that go with it.
"God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts."
I'm Roman Catholic. I see religion as a personal relationship with God.
Not the rites and ceremonies.
Not the politics that go with it.
"God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts."
"There is no weakness in honest sorrow... only in succumbing to depression over what cannot be changed." --- Alaundo, BG2
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Also, you can't confuse faith in an object with faith in God.
For instance, I have faith that when I sit down in a chair, that chair will support my weight. That is a proven faith, one that has proven itself time and again, and can be relied on. It is also different from religious faith.
Faith in God, on the other hand, is an intangible faith. As it stands, there is no perfect proof on the existence of God. This belief is based on a faith that he is there, not a knowledge.
I believe the expanded discussion about this rests within the theory of Meta-physics, but as I tend to focus in Ethics, and I don't know for sure.
Oh, and for the record, as many here know, I am an ardent Secular Humanist (among a couple others, I believe, on the boards). Essentially, it's Atheism, that thinks that many religions on the right track with the morals and ethics involved, we just choose to for-go the belief in God part.
For instance, I have faith that when I sit down in a chair, that chair will support my weight. That is a proven faith, one that has proven itself time and again, and can be relied on. It is also different from religious faith.
Faith in God, on the other hand, is an intangible faith. As it stands, there is no perfect proof on the existence of God. This belief is based on a faith that he is there, not a knowledge.
I believe the expanded discussion about this rests within the theory of Meta-physics, but as I tend to focus in Ethics, and I don't know for sure.
Oh, and for the record, as many here know, I am an ardent Secular Humanist (among a couple others, I believe, on the boards). Essentially, it's Atheism, that thinks that many religions on the right track with the morals and ethics involved, we just choose to for-go the belief in God part.
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Sean The Owner
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