Human Existance

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:51 pm

I am currently researching material for an article on sustainable paper, which ended up leading me to this website: http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/
It seems apt to post in this thread.. interesting stuff

Gromph · Post by **Gromph** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:26 pm

[QUOTE=Chanak]I don't see humanity as an anomaly in nature. We're a product of the mechanisms of this planet like all other lifeforms on earth are, both simple and complex. We're saddled with a unique and rather unappealing condition, however. We're capable of drastically altering the environment which surrounds us in a relatively short amount of time. In my opinion, this ability seems more of an instinctual drive in humans rather than a conscious choice. While change is the rule and the way the planet operates, humans can tinker with this process, accelerating it or taking it in an entirely different direction which can have drastic consequences that go well beyond the local in effect.

While I'm very cynical about humanity at this point in time, I'm retaining the irrational hope that something good will emerge from this mess.[/QUOTE]

I agree, just because we cause terrible repercusions due to our actions in the world we aren't an anomoly in existence, look at disease for a moment, they cause death and sickness on masive levels, yet that is the role they play in the world, what we do and are is the result of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. We are doing what we have always been doing, the only difference is that now we have the means to do it faster, easier and on a larger scale

CopperWater · Post by **CopperWater** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:12 pm

I believe that humans are the only the animal that has real feelings. Sure a dolphin can feel pain and be 'sad' about it but i doubt it truely understands its feelings. I am just a closed-minded idiot but i think that mankind is the best race and why not burn down the rainforest? I realy dont give a damn about some frogs and slugs who need the trees, I want some paper to write down different ways to hurt other animals with. Animals only live to live, they serve no purpose except to be eaten on the food chain. Man is at the top of the food chain and we didnt get there eating carrot sticks and i am all for killing animals for trophies since they only exist only to feed someone.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:50 pm

No species looks out for anything but itself. If a carnivore didn't have a fullness sensation it would eat the planet into extinction. I say who cares about the other species, humans look out for humans.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:18 pm

[QUOTE=jopperm2]No species looks out for anything but itself. If a carnivore didn't have a fullness sensation it would eat the planet into extinction. I say who cares about the other species, humans look out for humans.[/QUOTE]

Anyone read in the news lately about a group of divers off the shores of New Zealand having been saved from a great white shark by a pod of dolphins?

Apparently the dolphins started to circle the divers, bringing them closer together, and keeping the shark away. Amazing.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:41 pm

Dolphins just like screwing with sharks. That and they don't have anything to do all day and food and sex get boring for an underwater mammal.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:19 pm

[QUOTE=jopperm2]Dolphins just like screwing with sharks. That and they don't have anything to do all day and food and sex get boring for an underwater mammal.

[/QUOTE]

If they are that bored, why not watch the shark attack the humans, then afterwards "screw" with the shark? Maybe dolphins aren't into bloodsport?

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:38 pm

[QUOTE=jopperm2]No species looks out for anything but itself. If a carnivore didn't have a fullness sensation it would eat the planet into extinction. I say who cares about the other species, humans look out for humans.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry, but that is complete nonsense. Plenty of species look after other species, though not under all circumstances. Humans are one of them. You can think it is unnecessary ofcourse, but its only your opinion. There are facts to be found.

[QUOTE=CopperWater]I am just a closed-minded idiot[/QUOTE]

Do you think that is desirable? What criteria do you use to determine which species is the best? What purpose do you find in human live that does not exist in other animals?

If you truly think that animal lives have no other value than to serve human interests then you should atleast be aware many of them are fundamental for our survival.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:41 pm

Maybe.. I really don't know what dolphins do to have a good time, I saw them doing some weird stuff at seaworld once.. Too explicit for here.. I doubt seriously that they gave a crap about those people, it's hard to say waht the motive was.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:43 pm

[QUOTE=Dottie]I am sorry, but that is complete nonsense. Plenty of species look after other species, though not under all circumstances. Humans are one of them. You can think it is unnecessary ofcourse, but its only your opinion. There are facts to be found..[/QUOTE]

Such as?

[QUOTE=Dottie]
Do you think that is desirable? What criteria do you use to determine which species is the best? What purpose do you find in human live that does not exist in other animals?

If you truly think that animal lives have no other value than to serve human interests then you should atleast be aware many of them are fundamental for our survival.[/QUOTE]

Only until we find a way to synthesize them properly, then we can cull them like the rest of the dead weight.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:46 pm

[QUOTE=CopperWater]I believe that humans are the only the animal that has real feelings. Sure a dolphin can feel pain and be 'sad' about it but i doubt it truely understands its feelings. I am just a closed-minded idiot but i think that mankind is the best race and why not burn down the rainforest? I realy dont give a damn about some frogs and slugs who need the trees, I want some paper to write down different ways to hurt other animals with. Animals only live to live, they serve no purpose except to be eaten on the food chain. Man is at the top of the food chain and we didnt get there eating carrot sticks and i am all for killing animals for trophies since they only exist only to feed someone.[/QUOTE]

I try, occasionally, to hold out some optimism that humanity has a chance of getting it right. However, posts such as the above only reinforce my cynicism and the belief that we may well poison ourselves, and everything else along with us, within the next 100 years or so (if not sooner).

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:50 pm

[QUOTE=jopperm2]Maybe.. I really don't know what dolphins do to have a good time, I saw them doing some weird stuff at seaworld once.. Too explicit for here.. I doubt seriously that they gave a crap about those people, it's hard to say waht the motive was.[/QUOTE] There are extensive studies detailing that captive animals do not behave in the same way as their wild counterparts.

Also, I think Ysh's example of the dolphins does indeed indicate that certain species will take care of other species.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:55 pm

Yeah, the seaworld dolphins act like a swingers club on exstacy..

I really don't think there is any evidence that they care to help anyone though.. but if altruism floats their boat, go for it.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:29 pm

jopperm2 wrote:Such as?

Aside from the one Yshania just stuck in your face you can look at this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2145887.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1746828.stm
And the other side of the story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/300889.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/654452.stm

If you wonder why the dolphines act like they do it might be interesting to know that their behaviour is exactly the same as when they protect their young from sharks.

Only until we find a way to synthesize them properly, then we can cull them like the rest of the dead weight.

Yes, that is correct. Why do you find this morally acceptable? How does it differ from killing of members of your own species?

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:35 pm

CopperWater wrote:I believe that humans are the only the animal that has real feelings. Sure a dolphin can feel pain and be 'sad' about it but i doubt it truely understands its feelings. I am just a closed-minded idiot <snip>

If you wish to alter that, I can recommend you to do some reading about ethology (the scientific study of animal's behaviour) and basic psychology.
Emotions, or feelings, are a very basic response-system that is crucial to all vertabrates and perhaps also other life forms. You share basic emotions, such as fear or pleasantness, with a snake. Complex emotions such as admiration or empathy, you share with apes and probably dophins and whales. (Sea mammals have been less studied due to practical problems). There are some higher cognitive functions that may be species specific to humans, but "feelings" is not a higher cognitive function, it is very basic. I am not sure what you mean by "understand it's feelings", would you like to elaborate on that?

but i think that mankind is the best race and why not burn down the rainforest?I realy dont give a damn about some frogs and slugs who need the trees, I want some paper to write down different ways to hurt other animals with. Animals only live to live, they serve no purpose except to be eaten on the food chain. Man is at the top of the food chain and we didnt get there eating carrot sticks and i am all for killing animals for trophies since they only exist only to feed someone.

You are entilted to your opinions although I find them immoral, however, immoral or not, there are many points in your reasoning that needs elaboration.

By the same reasoning, do you also acknowledge that a lion wants food and has the right to eat you and your family? What do you mean with "top of the food chain?" Man is not a top predator, if that is what you mean. We are the most powerful species in terms of controlling our environment, but that is something different. Do this give us certain rights to exploit other species, and why so?

What do you mean with "we didn't get there eating carrot sticks"? Do you mean humankind did something special to deserve to exploit other species? Do you view evolution as intentional? Please explain.

Jopperm2]Only until we find a way to synthesize them properly wrote:
Firstly, why clone or "synthesise" species that are already here? Do you have any idea of the resources needed to clone even a bunch of rats? Why should these resources be used to make animals we need that already exist, rather than just avoiding making them extinct?

Secondly, do you have any basic knowledge about climatology and ecology? Do you realise that if you kill off a lot of sea living animals, the oceans will actually change dramatically, which in turn will affect not only vegetation but also climate and atmosphere? Do you also realise that we are very, very far from enough knowledge to re-create such things as stable climate systems and atmosphere that is both breathable to us, and protects us from the lethal cosmic radiation?

No species looks out for anything but itself.

I am sorry, but your statements seems very ignorant. I think both Jopperm2 an d Copperwater lacks basic knowledge about ethology. It is surprising that you have a lot of opinions about things you clearly have very little knowledge about.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:10 pm

[QUOTE=Dottie]Aside from the one Yshania just stuck in your face you can look at this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2145887.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1746828.stm
And the other side of the story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/300889.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/654452.stm

If you wonder why the dolphines act like they do it might be interesting to know that their behaviour is exactly the same as when they protect their young from sharks.[/QUOTE]

I don't see what the second 2 links had to do with this.. Also, about the first 2 links.. This represents a very minute amount of animals, one lioness does not prove anything at all. BTW has anyone considered how accurate a testimony from a guy who just spent 2 days bobbing in the ocean is? I doubt a court would accept it. I'm not inclined to just take it as it is. Plus these animals are acting out of misplaced insticts it seems, maybe I'm incorrect there.. It doesn't seem that they are really interested in promoting the wellbeing of all living things though.

[QUOTE=Dottie]
Yes, that is correct. Why do you find this morally acceptable? How does it differ from killing of members of your own species?[/QUOTE]

First, that was intended as a joke.
Second, when I typed it I was envisioning a Matrix-like world wrapped in metal hundreds of years from now giggling.
Third, I don't really care if it's moral and it differs a great deal that it's another species. Most people will eat another species but not their own..
Fourth, there are many times that I don't mind advocating the killing of my own species.. I wonder what people taste like.. I bet it's a bit like rabbit. Or maybe more like veal.

PS> Ysh didn't stick anything in my face, I think that story is an exception at best and a load of crap at likely.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:13 pm

[QUOTE=C Elegans]
Do you realise that if you kill off a lot of sea living animals, the oceans will actually change dramatically, which in turn will affect not only vegetation but also climate and atmosphere? Do you also realise that we are very, very far from enough knowledge to re-create such things as stable climate systems and atmosphere that is both breathable to us, and protects us from the lethal cosmic radiation?

I am sorry, but your statements seems very ignorant. I think both Jopperm2 an d Copperwater lacks basic knowledge about ethology. It is surprising that you have a lot of opinions about things you clearly have very little knowledge about.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do realise that, see above about joke-nature of the comment, also I don't really care bout animal behaviour besides how we can use it to benefit us. And by us I mean me.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:22 pm

[QUOTE=jopperm2]I don't really care bout animal behaviour besides how we can use it to benefit us. And by us I mean me.[/QUOTE]

If you don't care about animal behaviour and thus do not intend to get any knowledge about the subject, then your opinions on the subject are totally invalid ignorant fantasies and deserve to the be treated as such.

If you do care about how you personally can benefit from animal behaviour, it would be impossible for you to hold the opinion that we can exploit other species to extinction. Since you claim to be aware of the status of current knowledge and the impact different species have on earth's general condition, how do you defend your position? With the present speed, humans will make the planet inhabitable for ourselves long before our knowledge and technology allows us to recreate what we have destroyed. Thus, your positions is impossible. What are your arguments for it?

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:31 pm

I didnt' say I didn't want any knowledge, knowledge and animals are useful. I'm just not into touchy-feely save the whales kinda stuff. I happen to like being around animals, I find them amusing and My daughter thinks they're wonderful, but given the option of an animal over a human, human wins every time.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:35 pm

[QUOTE=C Elegans]If you do care about how you personally can benefit from animal behaviour, it would be impossible for you to hold the opinion that we can exploit other species to extinction. Since you claim to be aware of the status of current knowledge and the impact different species have on earth's general condition, how do you defend your position? With the present speed, humans will make the planet inhabitable for ourselves long before our knowledge and technology allows us to recreate what we have destroyed. Thus, your positions is impossible. What are your arguments for it?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I didn't see this part of your post.

I never sadi I would exploit animals to extiction. And I don't believe most of the end of the world stuff. I don't claim to have all the answers like some people, I just don't see the need to kiss up to animals. I don't think there are any animals that are about to be extinct that would cause a huge impact on the earth. And I firmly belive that humans come first.