Human Existance

[C Elegans]

@Repent: what I was trying to say was that I wondered how CopperWater reached his conclusions when he is aware of his own ignorance. I mean, I am highly ignorant about cooking, thus I refrain from cooking and I certainly refrain from serving other people my bad attempts to make food.

[Repent]

[QUOTE=C Elegans]@Repent: what I was trying to say was that I wondered how CopperWater reached his conclusions when he is aware of his own ignorance. I mean, I am highly ignorant about cooking, thus I refrain from cooking and I certainly refrain from serving other people my bad attempts to make food.[/QUOTE]


and im tryign to say that he was totally ignorant, or at least not on that topic, it was a subconcious deed.

[dragon wench]

This excerpt comes from an interview with deep ecologist John Seed, the full version can be found at the link I posted here earlier... thought-provking ideas.... It seems fitting to quote this section here:

JS: I recently came to an interesting perspective on violence, mostly from watching a series of videos produced by Brian Swimme called, "Canticle to the Cosmos." By looking at the origins of the universe and the galaxies, the explosive violence inherent in the cosmos stood out in stark relief. For some reason, we currently tend to believe that violence is some kind of an aberration, whereas in fact it is at the heart of things. Seeing this doesn't excuse our own violence, but rather places it in some larger perspective. Then our efforts to create islands of non-violence and compassion in the middle of it all seem even nobler and more precious.

IM: Are you implying that our destruction of the natural environment is somehow part of the inherent violence of the universe?

JS: Let me answer by talking about a change in my own understanding that has been very important for me. Ten years ago I was somewhat desperate about saving the forests and the natural world, and driven by an apocalyptic view that saw the end of life on earth. But lately I've started to see our time as a transition period. Thomas Berry says that the apocalypse has already happened, that it doesn’t matter if we come to our senses tomorrow, because essentially, the Cenozoic era that began sixty-five million years ago when the dinosaurs disappeared has now ended, and a new era has begun. The nature of the new era is still in question, but the fact that the old one is over is no longer in doubt.
According to E. O. Wilson, between five and ten percent of all species of plants and animals have become extinct in the last few hundred years. A recent survey of leading biologists around the world (Reported by the Worldwatch Institute, September, `99, in a story entitled, "Fastest Mass Extinction in Earth History.") found that most expect between one-third and two-thirds of all species now living to be gone within a hundred years from now. So we are living at the end of a vast era: this millennium is truly a watershed. If we divide sixty-five million years by a thousand, we find there have been sixty-five thousand millennia since the age of dinosaurs ended, and now we are at a similar turning point. This is huge! But no one is really acknowledging the magnitude of the change that is taking place.
Meanwhile, it is very instructive to look at the history of extinctions on earth, and find that the demise of the dinosaurs and the present extinction spasm are only two of at least six such episodes that can be discerned from the fossil record. In one case, at the end of the Permian era, two hundred thirty million years ago, ninety-five percent of all species perished, and none of the biologists are predicting anything on that scale.
Looking back, we believe now that the extinction of the dinosaurs was caused by a large meteor landing somewhere around the Yucatan peninsula and creating a nuclear winter scenario. No animal larger than a cat survived those conditions, but those survivors included some little mammals living under the ground who were our forefathers and foremothers. We should realize that if the dinosaurs had been able to continue, then we would have never have had our day in the sun.
In a similar way, as we look back at the fossil record, we see that each great spasm of species extinction has been immediately followed by a huge burst of novelty. It turns out that the evolution of life isn't just a gradual process of natural selection as previously believed, but happens in spurts called "punctuated equilibrium." There are long stretches of stasis, and then periods of cataclysmic extinction, followed by a flowering of creativity. If we can identify with that whole process and not just with our sixty-five-million-year moment, then the desperation and tragedy leaks out of our current scenario.
Of course, we can still be passionate about protecting and alleviating the suffering of the beings with whom we share the Cenozoic era. I am also interested in the possibility that we can somehow pull some miracle out of the hat and change our ways. If we can transform in some fundamental way, we might be able to prevent the tremendous deterioration of our life support systems, and maybe get another sixty-five million years. The dinosaurs had more than a hundred million years, and we human beings have only had a couple of million years at the most. I think it would be a great shame to disappear at this particular moment, so early in our history. I feel like we're only just now figuring out how to have fun!
So my commitment to trying to protect the biological beauty and fecundity of living things remains undiminished, but the level of hysteria that used to accompany my efforts is gone. In some bizarre sense, I’ve found a tremendous comfort in knowing how natural it all is, all part of the ongoing epic of evolution.
Equally important is the fact that I’ve stopped blaming myself and other humans. I have begun to see a kind of fundamental innocence about us. You know, for the last few thousand years Judeo-Christians have had the arrogance to believe that we are the crown of creation and the measure of all being. So now, in apparent contrast, we have begun to see ourselves as a rampant cancer that is destroying the earth. But to imagine that it's all our fault, and feeling guilty about it, is part of the same arrogance that sees us as completely separate and in charge of the whole shebang. Blaming ourselves or each other does not contribute to anyone's well-being or the efforts to preserve the life of earth.

IM: Some activists would argue that seeing environmental destruction as a natural occurrence can only lead to fatalism and a laissez-faire attitude.

JS: I must confess that I worried about that response, even in myself. You know, "Why struggle if this is all natural? Maybe it the right time for the end of the Cenozoic. The sun is only halfway through its life span, so there is time for many more orders of being to exist on the earth. Why care what happens to humanity?"
But I can only report that what happened to me was that those fears were baseless. My motivation to act on behalf of humanity, mammals, vertebrates--all complex life and life as we know it--went undiminished as a result of letting go of the anxiety that everything was going to come to an end. Instead it helped me let go of grasping and to gain more focus and energy.

[jopperm2]

@CE, I pretty much agree with your post to me with you expert clarifications. PS> Thanks for calling me stupid! I guess I deserve it, I was being a smart aleck..

@ Dottie, I think my intent was clear that I was referring to animals other than humans, but if not, my apologies, that was my intent. Also, I only skimmed over some of the Lioness article, but after reading it, my opinion hasn't changed much. Also, what greenpeace says it is and what it really is are two different things.. Nazis in the US claim to be a legitimate political party.