What's the limit on Sneak Attacks?

faruz · Post by **faruz** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:22 pm

My character is a Rogue/Mage 6/2 Elf.

I was wondering, can I sneak attack with a Magic Missile??
On the one hand it sounds stupid but I just caught my enemy flat-footed and probably I can aim my Missile just like a regular crossbow bolt (that is "sneakable").

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:45 pm

Well, for something to be 'sneakable' you'd have to be able to aim it. And when you aim something, it can miss. Ergo, a MM can not be sneak attack.

Furthermore, for something to sneak attack with, you need to do physical damage. A MM (or any spell for that matter) does hit you but it's not the force of it's hit that does the damage.

In my opinion, if something allows a saving trow for half damage instead of rolling to hit an AC, it's not sneakable. So spells can not be sneak attacked with.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:03 pm

Some spells can sneak attack if I am correct.. On page 38 of Tome and Blood it talks about getting the Improved Critical feat for Ray, Energy Missile, and Touch spells.. MM is not one of these, but some spells certainly are. I think any of those could be sneak attacked. I think the limit is you have to be able to score a crit with the attack/spell..

Volk · Post by **Volk** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:03 pm

No i dont you can sneak attack with spells, besides arent spells already powerfull enough in 3ed?

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:28 pm

Spells are pretty powerful, but it says you can target specific parts of the boday with some of them and that sounds like a sneak attack to me.. Plus you gotta look at it this way, a wizard is pretty weak in combat, so it's good to have some other tricks up your sleave.

Volk · Post by **Volk** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:07 pm

Wizards arent suposed to be good in combat, wizards are suposed to cast spells and while material cost and availability might limit that, spells are powerfull when used in the right way and on porper targets.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:34 pm

Well, that's not really the question.

Can you sneak attack with spells?
Perhaps with spells you need to make an attack roll with, I don't think so. Too bad I just borrowed my Tome and Blood to someone.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:14 pm

As far as I can see it doesn't specifically mention sneak attack. It does say this:

"For purposes of combat-enhancing feats, weaponlike spells fall into three categories: ray, energy missile, and touch spell . . .Improved Critical: Choose one category of weapon-like spell . . . A spell normally threatens a critical on a 20; this feat increases that range to 19-20 . . . Point Blank Shot: You gain +1 modifier on attack and damage with rays and energy missiles at ranges of 30 feet or less."

These rules would lead me to believe that sneak attack applies as well.

Volk · Post by **Volk** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:38 pm

in that case the question is, how do criticals with a ray weapon work? do they have a damage multiplier or is there some other benefit from scoring a critical? As far as i knew a 20 simply ment an intant hit with a ray weapon.

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:07 pm

Any spell which requires a "To Hit" roll can be used as a sneak attack. So Touch and Ray spells but no Lightning Bolts or Power Words.

Spells have a crit of 20, x2. So a ray spell does double damage on a crit. Yes, this includes Ray of Enfeeblement! Same with the touch spells. Note that many of the really powerful spells don't offer a "To Hit" roll, but rather a save instead. These spells can't crit.

Makes the Rogue/Wiz quite a powerful combination.

Cheers,
TGHO

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:50 am

TGH is right happens a lot as of late...

[QUOTE=The Great Hairy]Makes the Rogue/Wiz quite a powerful combination.

Cheers,
TGHO[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, no. Sacrificing spells per day, known and caster level in order to add a paltry couple of dice to the weakest spells you have -single target damage spells- isn't a boost for wizards by a long shot.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:08 am

I agree with weasel, think about this though, A sorc1/monk9/assassin10, You get chill touch and alter self, other useful spells, your sneak attack with that chill touch will be great.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:50 am

Well, a rogue that multiclasses with a wizard does make him stronger. Spells help you be able to do stuff you simply otherwise coudn't do.

A wizard that multiclasses with a rogue makes him weaker. He loses spells and gains little in return.

It all depends on how you want to play the character.

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:59 pm

[QUOTE=Mr.Waesel]Unfortunately, no. Sacrificing spells per day, known and caster level in order to add a paltry couple of dice to the weakest spells you have -single target damage spells- isn't a boost for wizards by a long shot.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I dunno. Ever done a 3d6 Vampiric Touch + 4d6 backstab? Certainly shocked the wizard I sneak attacked. And that was only the first attack.

Sure, a 14th level Mage is going to have access to more spells than a 7th/7th Rogue/Wizard, and a 14th level Rogue is going to sneak better, however the whole point of multi-classing is versatility. (Well, and roleplaying in this case, as the descision to multi-class wasn't mine, it was the characters.)

Cheers,
THGO

Grimar · Post by **Grimar** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:17 am

just want to add this.. the rules about sneak attacking with spells are displayed in page 86(i think) in complete arcane.....

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:27 am

Page 85-86 and sorta on 72-73.