Evil...Opposite of Good?

Dead Frog · Post by **Dead Frog** » Wed Aug 15, 2001 4:11 pm

[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Dead Frog ]

Dead Frog · Post by **Dead Frog** » Wed Aug 15, 2001 4:12 pm

[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Dead Frog ]

Path of Wind · Post by **Path of Wind** » Wed Aug 15, 2001 4:40 pm

Originally posted by Ned Flanders:
As far as I know, evil NPC's will leave the group if the rep. gets too high. Can your high charisma prevent this.

Now that is THE QUESTION. Anyone who know anything on high Charisma preventing NPC leave beacuse of high rep, or even prevent not compatible NPC's work together - please reply!

Raven Avenger · Post by **Raven Avenger** » Wed Aug 15, 2001 8:23 pm

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Kekkonen · Post by **Kekkonen** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 3:27 am

Ever since BG1, I've thought that the game really needs TWO reputation scores, an internal and an external reputation. External reputation is what people think of you, and it's only affected by things that are "in the public domain" so to speak; that is what determines how people react to you and your gang. Internal reputation is based on what you actually do, including stuff you don't (or shouldn't) get caught doing.

To give some examples, stealing from a shop affects your internal reputation even if you don't get caught. If you do that a lot, Paladins should start complaining. If you get caught, it also affects your external reputation. Also, the BG1 plot twist where you're convicted of murdering the merchants would always cause a drop in external reputation, but your internal rep. would only drop if you actually murdered those guys.

I think this would be a pretty simple way of making evil a viable choice; you could do some good things publically just to dupe all the morons on Faerun to thinking you're their greatest hero, while secretly laughing all the way to the bank while you work on your evil and selfish schemes. Similarly, to be good (and especially to be a Paladin), you'd really have to BE good, not just keep up the appearances.

Saruman · Post by **Saruman** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:48 am

Kekkonen, that is probably the best idea that I have seen anyone come up with for how reputation should work, with the possible inclusion of a third reputation score which is your underworld reputation which is similar to your public reputation but is only known by merchants and npc who are involved in the criminal underworld and as such have there ear to the ground.

as an example, the thieves guild wouldn't give too much of a monkeys over your public reputation (although they may not deal with you at all if your public rep. is too low because they will realise that you are too much of a risk) On the other hand if you were known by the criminal fraternity as being a great thief they would either see you as a great ally or a big threat possibly.

Kekkonen · Post by **Kekkonen** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 5:32 am

Thanks. The "underworld reputation" is a good idea. I just wonder if it might be possible to do without it just by making e.g. thieves and certain merchants ignore your external reputation, as long as you're not on Faerun's "10 most wanted" list. However, I did just think of another score I'd like to see, and that would be something like "Fame"; while the reputation scores indicate where you stand in the "(known) bad guy -- (known) good guy" scale, "Fame" would place you somewhere between "unknown" and "famous all over Faerun".

The way I see it, one of the problems of the BG reputation score is that it tries to combine something like "doing good and being an upstanding citizen" with "being mighty and powerful", even though they are two entirely different animals.

Take the Trademeet quests for example. If my memory serves, you can really boost your reputation in Trademeet; you get a reputation point for solving the Druid Grove thingy, and then another by sending the Dao genies packing. However, there is absolutely no reason why an evil character wouldn't do both of these; you get thousands of gold pieces for what is basically a couple of days worth of mercenary work, and get some good loot from the suckers you kill as an additional bonus. Saving the town should gain you more fame, but whether it tips the scales towards you having a reputation as a good PC or not should depend on what you do afterwards.

First, think what Keldorn should do; he should either refuse the payment, since virtue is its own reward, or take it and give it away to the less fortunate or the Order or whatever. That definitely should improve his public reputation. Korgan, on the other hand, would just say "Aye, looks like I made meself another fortune with me Axe. Now, where's the ale and where are the ladies?" That in itself shouldn't lower his reputation (the employee's were, after all, legitimate), but it certainly shouldn't make him look like some goody two-shoes Paladin.

[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Kekkonen ]

Raven Avenger · Post by **Raven Avenger** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 5:53 am

Originally posted by Path of Wind:
Now that is THE QUESTION. Anyone who know anything on high Charisma preventing NPC leave beacuse of high rep, or even prevent not compatible NPC's work together - please reply!

I have raised my Charisma to 25 with shadowkeeper and took Edwin. He haven't left and he haven't said a bad word about the group.

*note that my reputation was 20.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 9:26 am

Originally posted by Ned Flanders:
Man, you're burning me all over the place.

Nonono, no burning here! Just wondering, that's all. Apparently you saw something I had never seen.

I now wonder whether Charisma adds to reputation when buying. I've sifted through all 2DA game files. There's a table in there that determines the effects of rep on prices, but no such thing for Charisma.

I can remember several occasions where I thought: "I'm being ripped off here. Must cast Friends to get better prices.". So I did, but no better prices. I didn't have an outstanding rep in those cases. There must be more to it than meets the eye.

Will test more.

Path of Wind · Post by **Path of Wind** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 10:47 am

Originally posted by Xyx:


I can remember several occasions where I thought: "I'm being ripped off here. Must cast Friends to get better prices.". So I did, but no better prices. I didn't have an outstanding rep in those cases. There must be more to it than meets the eye.

Will test more.

I think it was explained somewhere ( even maybe in BG1 manual), that charisma affects prices at th moment you ENTER shop. That means that if you enter shop with Cha 10 boosted Cha to 24, you will be treated pricewise as having Cha 10. You must ENTER the shop with high Cha. Moreover, if group leader has Cha 24, and you enetered the shop with his portrait on top, you can initiate dialogue with shopkeeper even by a group member with Cha 3, and prices would be still affected by Cha 24 (i.e. Cha of the leader when entering the shop).

[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Path of Wind ]

Ned Flanders · Post by **Ned Flanders** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:06 am

from Xyx

Nonono, no burning here! Just wondering, that's all. Apparently you saw something I had never seen.

I was just kidding about the burning commment. It was just ironic that posts I made on two different threads came back with counterpoints from the same member. Believe me, I feel the sharing of ideas and opinions here is a good thing; otherwise, I wouldn't have such an interest in these forums. It is really cool there are so many of us out there addicted to this game and yet, even though most of us have been through the game more than once, everyone who posts here has something to teach to all the other players. I thought I had explored all the game had to offer and once I started reading and posting here, it provided the incentive to play the game all over again and again and again.