The kensai-mage versus berzerker-mage debate thread

[Qwinn]

Okay, I've seen tiny bits of this argument scattered about umpteen different threads all over this board. But ask me why some people would say that a berzerker is better, and other than "immune to imprisonment when berzerk", I can't really think of one.

So. You can consider me one of those heathens who likes kensai-mages. Why should I try a berzerker mage this time around? Convince me that I -wouldn't- wear a Robe of Vecna or an Item Upgraded Robe of the Archmagi if I were a berzerker anyway. Explain to me how getting to wear bracers makes up for +4 THACO and damage (and no, you can't use your CLUA'd Gauntlets of Can Of Whoopass Specialization as justification)

"Everybody does kensai-mages, they're not original" is not a valid argument. For one, I can't see, nor do I care (once I'm off this board) what other people are playing. Secondly, I don't think berzerker mages can claim any prize for originality at this point either.

By the way, I'm not just being facetious here, I'm about to start a long new game with a fighter that I took through BG1 and I'm looking for reasons to play something other than a kensai mage. Heck, feel free to suggest -anything- that can start out as a level 8 fighter imported from BG1 and whose stats are good enough to dual to anything except a cleric, although if you're going to suggest a Thief dual class, note that I'm waiting till Quest Pack v.2 is complete before trying that out

(Oh, and as a secondary thread topic - can someone give me a gameplay reason -not- to put five proficiencies in Flails? I'm trying to look for any weapon combo that can hold a candle to Flail of Ages/Defender of Easthaven. The only ones I can find that come close you can't get for a LONG time, whereas the FoA/DoE combo you can easily get in Chapter 2. And totally concentrating on slashing/piercing leaves the problem of what to do when you're up against those clay golems...

Yes, as you can tell, I'm falling into a rut where I can only see one obvious choice for most decisions, and I have difficulty deliberately gimping myself for the sake of roleplaying (I wouldn't make that dumb choice if I was really my character and my life depended on it...!). Please, someone, help me break out of it - convince me there's a -good- gameplay reason to not play the same character I did the last two times!)

Qwinn

[Bruce Lee]

Well there isn't much between the two really. I prefer to dual class at level nine which is why I prefer the berserker over the kensai. Level nine dual means I have both classes active at 500 000 xp which is pretty early. Level 13 dual means most of SoA before I get my kensai abilities back. If you do it this way then kensai is probably better because by then the berserk ability is not that useful anymore. You have spells that can do it for you by then. Therefore you may be better of with the +4 to hit and damage and the speed bonus and ac bonus.
What I like about the berkserker/mage is the fact that you can use shields, you can buff and use plate before you have the money to buy robe of vecna. Perhaps you have aerie in your party and want her to wear the robe. You can use bracers and gauntlets, you can use helmets. And a level nine enraged berserker is just as good in combat as a level 9 kensai.
So I would say, if you have the patience, go for level 13 and kensai, if not berserker. The kensai is perhaps a little more stylish hehe.
What I found was that none of the characters had any problems whatsoever to kill any opponents in the game but that the kensai did die more often before getting decent contingencies going.

About the weapons issue. I know what you mean about the flail. My favourite too, you get it early and keep it till the end. If you do dual at level 9 and save scrolls till you have enough to learn to get you to level 10 mage then you can actually hold off levelling as a mage to save a proficiency slot for something other then dagger or dart/sling (which kensais cant use).
I strongly recommend dual at level 9 to mage from berserker! Give it a try, I think you'll like it.

[Qwinn]

Your arguments are quite compelling, actually...

Okay, sold. This time through I'll try a berzerker dualled to mage at level 9. I'll try specializing in Axes initially, since there are some nice options there early on, it fits with the berzerker motif quite well, you can throw many of them, and the idea of eventually using Axe of the Unyielding with five proficiencies is quite tasty...

Qwinn

[Bruce Lee]

Yeah axes are great, especially if you are good aligned and can use the azuredge. Be sure to download the fix from baldurdash reagrding berserkers. I think that the stun immunity during rage is missing otherwise.

[glenfar]

Just thought I'd add that where Berserker's really shine (in my opinion) is going solo. There's just no good Mage equivalent of Chaotic Commands, and no equivalent at all of Negative Plane Protection.

So as a solo choice, I'd say the Berserker/Mage definitely wins out, as it fills in some gaps. A Kensai/Mage just enhances what you already have.

In a party though, I don't think there's a big difference.

[Opalescence]

glenfar is right. The advantage that Kensai-Mage has is that Kensai's weaknesses become non-weaknesses when you put them with a Mage. The inability to wear armor is negated by the ability to wear robes & the fact that Mages don't wear armor anyway; it interferes with spellcasting. No bracers isn't really much of an issue. However, the Kensai-Mage is a straight-up combat/magic specialist, designed to get in quick and hit hard, and really has trouble with, say, vampires and illithid, especially when soloing. In addition, if it means anything to you, Berserkers can use bracers where the Kensai can't . Personally, I feel the Berserker-Cleric is the best combination for zerkers, since now you can take advantage of armor and shields, and really be a good combatant as well as a good caster.

[LotharBot]

I generally go with the Kensai-Mage, Berserker-Cleric, and WizSlayer-Thief duals. For the Kensai and WizSlayer, the second class makes up for the major deficiencies of the first (no armor for Kensai, no magic items for WizSlayers). The cleric buffs are nice to combine with the Berserker base. I wouldn't bother with a Berserker-mage in a party, because mages can get spell immunity - Abjuration (stops imprisonment), which makes enrage somewhat redundant.

Solo, I don't know. I haven't played a solo game yet.

[UserUnfriendly]

kensai mage-offensive support machine...hide behind your tanks to slash in from the side, relying on spell buffs and offensive spells to seriously augment your attack

berserker mage- both offensive and defensive machine...

offensive-use like a fighter mage, use both spells and fighting attacks to really put the hurt on foes. (robe wearing)

defensive-load up on spell triggers and contingencies, wear armor and just plain hack and slash along side your tanks...trigger sequencers when things get a little rough...

both are really powerful used right, and will provide much enjoyment.

[glenfar]

[QUOTE=LotharBot]I wouldn't bother with a Berserker-mage in a party, because mages can get spell immunity - Abjuration (stops imprisonment), which makes enrage somewhat redundant.[/QUOTE]

I don't think protection against imprisonment is that important, and hardly the main benefit of enrage - it's simply not that common. Far more common are the mind spell/affects - Stun, Sleep, Charm, Confusion and the like. (Maybe doesn't seem like as big a deal - but if you solo, those spells are practically a death sentence). And of course Level Drain can be really a pain for Mages.

But again, if you're in a party, it just means you get a Priest to cast Chaotic Commands and/or Negative Plane Protection on you instead of using Enrage, so not as big a deal. Having a Berserker just means your Priest can memorize some other spells instead.

As for straight combat, the B/M has a slight edge in defense (don't forget they can wear a helmet giving -1AC plus protection from critical hits), but the K/M has a slight edge in offense ... so as I said, I think it's pretty much even. (And BTW, I pretty much discount Kai due to the short duration - as a K/M, if you're in enough trouble to actually need Kai, there's probably a spell you could use even more).

[Bruce Lee]

Enrage wont protect you from level drain. But I agree going solo is where the berserker/mage outshines the kensai/mage. Yeah the enrage ability frees up so many spell slots, especially early on when your saves are kind of high and you dont have access to all spells. Also the robe of vecna makes activating enrage uninterruptable.

[glenfar]

[QUOTE=Bruce Lee]Enrage wont protect you from level drain.[/QUOTE]

Yes it does ... I'm positive of that - I've seen the message (while enraged) that I've been drained a couple levels, without actually losing anything. Although it's possible that's because of a patch (official or baldurdash) ...

[Nimiety]

You know, I wasn't sure about this so, since I'm awfully bored at work today, I started a vanilla, unpatched game with a berserker, dualled him over, game him a million xp so both classes were active, and clua'd in a mature vampire. And whddya know? I activated the berserker rage, sent him in alone to fight the vampire (and of course, he didn't have any weapons, oops!) but about 8 times the "two levels drained" message came up and each time he was fine - no effect actually occured. To prove the point even further, once the rage subsided, the vampire hit him one more time and two levels were drained from his active mage class.

The lessons from this? 1 - even though it's not documented, enrage does indeed protect from energy drain quite effectively. 2 - I need to find a more fulfilling job.

N.....

[Bruce Lee]

Cool. I knew barbarian rage protects you but I never knew berserker rage did.

[araknid70]

Well, if you're soloing, by the time you really need to fight major vampires, you get the amulet of power from Aran Linvail. Of course, fighters can't use it, so one'd have to dual to a mage first. Or, one could wield an Improved Mace of Disruption (though that only happens during the assault on Bodhi).Also, Immunity to Enchantment should protect against enchantment and charm spells, while Improved Invis protects against targetted spells. Just remember to cast Protection from Divination beforehand. All these spells are level 5 and below, and so should be available even before regaining the fighter abilities.

[glenfar]

[QUOTE=araknid70]Well, if you're soloing, by the time you really need to fight major vampires, you get the amulet of power from Aran Linvail...[/QUOTE]

Yes, there are items out there that will protect you from level drain, so it's probably not that big a deal. There are a few other quests (besides Bodhi) that have a number of undead - Umar Hills and to a lesser extent Windspear Hills for example. But you can always leave those until you get the amulet ...

[QUOTE=araknid70]Also, Immunity to Enchantment should protect against enchantment and charm spells, while Improved Invis protects against targetted spells. Just remember to cast Protection from Divination beforehand.[/QUOTE]

That's three spells (instead of one enrage) - and you're still vulnerable to Sphere of Chaos, Symbols, Power Words - even Horror ...

[Klorox]

[QUOTE=Qwinn]Convince me that I -wouldn't- wear a Robe of Vecna or an Item Upgraded Robe of the Archmagi if I were a berzerker anyway. Explain to me how getting to wear bracers makes up for +4 THACO and damage (and no, you can't use your CLUA'd Gauntlets of Can Of Whoopass Specialization as justification[/QUOTE]

I just find this statement funny. CLUAing stuff in is cheesy, but using the item upgrade mod isn't?

ON EDIT: I can't convince you. I find the Kensai-Mage superior to the Berserker-Mage. Now, Berserker-Cleric is better than them all, IMHO.

[Bruce Lee]

How is your berserker/mage coming along? Are you soloing or playing in a party?

[Qwinn]

"I just find this statement funny. CLUAing stuff in is cheesy, but using the item upgrade mod isn't?"

Well... yes. Definetly. The concept is "balance", which isn't quantifiable so much as a qualitative judgment. The item upgrade mod requires components spread out over the whole game that have to be accumulated, just like Cromwell/Cespenar required previously, and hefty additional gold costs as well. Looking over the list, I think at this point that unless I'm -extremely- stingy with coin, there's no way I'm going to be able to afford them all, and I'm going to have to pick and choose. At best, I may be able to get most of them but only by giving up buying some of the higher level mage spells I would've previously considered must-have's. If you can't see how that differs greatly from just CLUAing in whatever you want with zero effort or consideration, well, not sure how I could convince you otherwise.

As for how the berzerker-mage is going, I've actually decided to take him to level 13 before dualling him. For one, yes, I do have the patience - not really a problem for me. Secondly, level 9's just too early (I hit level 9 by just getting out of Chateau Irenicus and rescuing the circus), and I'd have to deal with not having the fighter class active at the worst time, when the rest of my party was still in a pretty crappy state. I can't handle the notion that I couldn't survive the one-on-one pit fight in the Copper Coronet! Lastly, for the purposes of actually comparing the two to see which one is better, I think dualling them at the same point will be more useful. Frankly, I think the berzerker immunities will open up a lot of strategies not previously available - will I be able to actually solo the demilich? It'll be fun to try.

Oh, incidentally, yes, I'm going through with a full party. For me, a lot of the fun of the game is in the inter-party interaction.

Qwinn

[Bruce Lee]

Yeah fighting the demi-lich with a berserker/mage is cool. Watch out for when the enrage runs out though
When I played the berserker/mage I dualled right out of the dungeon and then did some easy quests for xp and money, circus, graveyard, bridge district murder, beginning of thieves quest etc. That way I quickly got my fighter levels back and then picked up npcs. This meant that I enjoyed the dual benefits almost all the game, but had to rely on tensers to melee the toughest towards the end. Works both ways I guess.
Good Luck! (not that you'll need it )

[Klorox]

[QUOTE=Qwinn]"I just find this statement funny. CLUAing stuff in is cheesy, but using the item upgrade mod isn't?"

Well... yes. Definetly. The concept is "balance", which isn't quantifiable so much as a qualitative judgment. The item upgrade mod requires components spread out over the whole game that have to be accumulated, just like Cromwell/Cespenar required previously, and hefty additional gold costs as well. Looking over the list, I think at this point that unless I'm -extremely- stingy with coin, there's no way I'm going to be able to afford them all, and I'm going to have to pick and choose. At best, I may be able to get most of them but only by giving up buying some of the higher level mage spells I would've previously considered must-have's. If you can't see how that differs greatly from just CLUAing in whatever you want with zero effort or consideration, well, not sure how I could convince you otherwise.

[/quote]

I see a difference. But I also see them both as cheesy. ItemUpgrade makes the game significantly easier. In the end of a regular, unmodded game, money is never an issue for the player, as you hit a roof. So there you are, with all your money, and still the same equipment you're supposed to have.