Bloodlines biased for Tremere?

holy666diver · Post by **holy666diver** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:35 am

I've finished this game the first time as a male Tremere and found it to be fairly easy, mainly because thaumaturgy is so insanely powerful. Even though I messed up a lot (wasted points on haggle, wasted money on guns) thaumaturgy always pulled me through, especially against the bosses. Bloodstrike is the ultimate ranged weapon, doing up to 80+ damage per hit against certain undead. Forget about using it to get blood from a distance, this discipline is a boss-killer! Not to mention that Purge stops you from getting mobbed and Shield soaks damage pretty good.

I'm playing the game the second time as a Gangrel, but so far I keep on getting slaughtered (Protean is not very impressive). I got as far as Grout's mansion but I don't think I'll be able to make it much further. Since there's an artifact that boosts thaumaturgy even more (I missed it because I screwed up the Gargoyle quest) I think I'll restart the game as a female Tremere and get my own chantry while I'm at it. So does anyone else think the Tremere clan is a little unbalanced?

Jandau · Post by **Jandau** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:31 am

Thraumaturgy isn't all that great. Most instant-kill disciplines (spectral wolf, suicide,...) do tons of damage (80-120) vs bosses (or any creature they can't kill in one casting (the really big tzimisce ghouls). Most thraumaturgy disciplines cost WAY too much blood. Don't get me wrong, Thraumaturgy is good (you HAVE to love Purge!), but my tremere relied on his Dominate disciplines just as much (Trance for feeding, Suicide for cheap kills). Also, you can't check your weapons in the Tremere haven (elysium)

1930 · Post by **1930** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:07 am

I finished the game yesterday for the first time, with a Tremere. I used solely Thaumaturgy combined with heavy melee and the game never really gave me any trouble. Seeing you get the Trance for free, I thought it to be quite useless building the Dominate tree as well. Gonna start over now with a Brujah I think, though I doubt it will make the game any harder, or easier. Just not a very hard game, but a kickass one nonetheless...

Intergalactic · Post by **Intergalactic** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:18 am

I finished it, using bloodshield and melee. Only when i came to the temple
with the crossbow dudes, i invested some exp to get suicide.
While the game seemed very easy, i think it would be even easier with a clan that has celerity.

Solusek · Post by **Solusek** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:28 am

Right. If you think Thaumaturgy kicks ass, you have to see celerity 5 combined with potence and that nice double speed katana. Just incredible. Or try using it with ranged 10 and a lassiter or McLusky.

nightspore · Post by **nightspore** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:34 am

I've just started playing a female Tremere, and i find it much harder than my previous characters. The easiest was playing a Malkavian, using the combination of level 5 Obfuscate and Vision of Death and Berserk, and my fire-axe. Didn't have any problems at all until the very last boss.

Playing a Gangrel was a bit harder, but I think that was only because I had come to rely so much on Obfuscate. I do agree that Protean was pretty useless when up against multiple enemies, but in one-on-one encounters it was pretty devastating.

Komissar Charon · Post by **Komissar Charon** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:31 am

[QUOTE=Solusek]Right. If you think Thaumaturgy kicks ass, you have to see celerity 5 combined with potence and that nice double speed katana. Just incredible. Or try using it with ranged 10 and a lassiter or McLusky.[/QUOTE]

And unless I'm mistaken, it can go up to 13 if you're a Toreador, Tremere, or Malkavian. But only the Toreadors get Celerity.

Jandau · Post by **Jandau** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:23 am

All in all, I found all the clans to be fairly well balanced. Each has a slightly different way of approaching things (a Gangrel will have a tougher time at sneaking than a Malkavian or a Nosferatu), but all can get the job done.

holy666diver · Post by **holy666diver** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:57 pm

Interesting points, especially about celerity and obfuscate (I've yet to try those), but the thing is, I never needed to get any more than level 3 in thaumaturgy to beat down my enemies. Where as most disciplines require much higher levels to be really useful, bloodstrike (level 1) and purge (level 2) will pull you through the hardest parts of the game fairly easily. And the supposed handicap of only getting a max of 4 in your physical stats is hardly a problem...maxing out any stat is a waste of points since they become exponentially more expensive. That just leaves more points to put in seduction and persuasion, to get those interesting dialogues...

_tmp_ · Post by **_tmp_** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:13 pm

Max 4 in your physical stats is not very big handicap, since bloodbuff renders all physical stats pretty much irrelevant. Str 2 is nice, then you can meet minimum requirements for swords even without BB. There is a grand total of two battles where it's actually worthwhile to pull out a gun. And I'm not too certain about the first one, was just such a nasty looking critter that I emptied the Killmatic just to be on the safe side... Seduction is not terribly worthwhile, it's often gender dependant and the most impressive seduction feats(Officer Chunk) you JUST DON'T WANT TO DO.

Maxing out dodge, wits and melee is definitely not waste of points.

Celerity rules, though. And Obfuscate at level 2 is occassionally mindbogglingly useful. Dominate/Dementation are prolly the most useful disciplines in the whole.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:15 pm

You think Thurmaturgy is broken in the computer game? Thank your lucky stars they didn't translate it from the books. Considering there are over 15 different kinds of Thurm, and 90% of them are UTTERLY broken, and come with Rituals as well that allow you to do ANYTHING.. The game would have been a very short adventure. I think they toned down the Tremere nicely all things considered.
Mind you, I find it hard to go past Fortitude and Presence as a nice combo. It must be real tough to by an army of sword wielding thugs with -5 Str, a 25% chance of being stunned, lowerd attack rate, dealing -5 automatic soak and tryign to bust through blood buffed stats and body armour. I imagine they cry themselves to sleep each night at the idea... Or would.. If I had spared a single one of them. Sometimes I imagine that their blood is sad as it sits in my belly, waiting to be used on the next group of their friends.... BWWHAHAHA!! DIE MORTAL!

soni · Post by **soni** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:43 am

I finished the game as Ventrue, with 5 presence and 5 celerity

I only had to use both disciples against the bosses. And that doulbe speed katana makes things more simple...
I only had problems killing the Kuei Jin princess, because I tried to use ranged weapons... Once I switched back to the katana, I killed her in no time

schlacta · Post by **schlacta** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:26 pm

was thinking the same thing... as a Malkavian

Maybe it's a good sign, or maybe it means the game is way too easy, but I was thinking the same thing... as a Malkavian.

Dementation opportunities *everywhere*, and then obfuscate my way around the more difficult stealth bits as the lazy vamp I am.

Glad to hear that tremere's don't have too much trouble, because I want to start over as one next time, but Malkavians... really, no problems, and I haven't boosted a single discipline past level two.

As a side note, what can I say? I love chopping my way through the Grout's home with the fire axe while wearing heavy clothing (looks like a butcher's smock and gloves, with his usual trademark goggles). If this game had a chainsaw, I'd be all over it. Come to think of it, why no chainsaw?

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:54 am

Game difficulty

it is difficult to know whether the game is too easy or not - I have completed it with 3 clans and am at the Temple with my 4th character.

if you know the weaknesses of the oppenents then whatever clan you choose, you can vary your strategy to win. My ventrue lass is awesome in melee with only fortitude 2 and buffed up wielding the t-blade. I didn't bother getting her to sneak aorund like the malk did, she would wander in, count the enemy, if there were lots decide if she needed to buff up then wade in. possessing one opponent - the best one - often evened up the odds. that was totally different from the malk that obfuscated around sneaking kills or the tremere who exploded somebody once in a while.

with tremere, you become dependent on the thaum discipline, just as the malk relies on the obfuscate. whichever you choose, they levels are all do-able - but remember the first time you tried with your first character!

the Tz at 409 ? got whacked a few times before I noticed I could get on the table and breeze it.
the scorpion things in the warren? ripped me apart before I notice dthat they can't climb ladders.

often it is the topography that is the key to beating end bosses - brother Vick, as I have posted before - crouch in the right place and you get the chance to shoot him more than he does you, same with warform - up on the platform, he almost never gets you and you can shoot away or fry him.

even the Sheriff and the Behemoth both need the player to take the environment into account. none of those guys like to be roasted, so stick a spare flamethrower in your haven to pick up during the end-game!

the land is your friend.

forgedude · Post by **forgedude** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:04 pm

playing as Tremere...

...I found the low-level guys were more of a challenge than the Big Bosses. Andrei, regardless of original or in warform, Ming, and the Sherriff went down before bloodstrike like they weren't even there. 3-4 strikes and they were owned. Mind you, flaming Andrei in warform is also a pretty good option. "Miserable Bloodthief, I shall send you to the Final Death...hold on, somebody BBQ down here...AAARGH!!!"
Where's a bag of Vampire-digestible marshmellows when you need it?

Jhereg · Post by **Jhereg** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:22 am

Every clan has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps the Tremere are a bit unbalanced, but, as the game itself states - everybody fears the Tremere. The Tremere have their weaknesses, too. I think, as with any clan, that the question is not about what you can do, but how well you can do it.

Solitaire · Post by **Solitaire** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:51 am

re.

I wouldn't say the tremere were over powered really. I admit that when I played as one I found the game easier but I think that's because of the targetting system the game has for active disciplines means its impossible to miss with a 'blood boil' or 'suicide'.

The blood magic is the thing that distinguishes them from all the other clans - it would be a bit of a let down if it wasn't powerful (slightly off topic, it would make me think of the tremere like I do gangrel, "protean, great but I'm quicker using a melee weapon and just as effective so what's the point? I'm pretty sure you aren't supposed to use it to gain a bonus to your wits for your hacking attempts, but..."), plus the blood costs are the most expensive of all powers so that ought to balance things a little.

I don't think the damage dealt was any better than the damage dealt in melee, at least until you obtained that gem which does vastly increase the strength of your blood magic.

Just my thoughts.

Bat22 · Post by **Bat22** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:12 pm

I think the Tremere are extremely balanced rather than overpowered. They can be as capable conversationalists as the Ventrue or Toreadors, and Thaumaturgy ensures that they don't fall behind in closed or distanced fighting. If anything made them overpowered, I'd sooner consider the Dominate discipline that enables one to trance or convert enemies.

Shizz · Post by **Shizz** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:25 am

To be honest, I did not find the game to be too challenging with any of the clans. Sure, the Tremere Blood Magic is nifty... but so is the Malkavian Obfuscate/Dominate, or the Toreador Speed/Auspex, or the Ventrue Presence/Fortitude.. and so on. Whatever Clan you're playing, Bloodlines offers a reasonable solution. While it doesn't reach Deus Ex or the Hitman series, where multitude of options is concerned, it still offers a wide range of possibilites for your character to use. So, yes, Tremere are powerful - but so are all other Clans. I, for example, have found the Brujah to be the most powerful.. Had the Ventrue Tower boss down in about 1:30 - both forms.

So, yes, Tremere are powerful. But so is everyone else; and that does it for Singleplayer. And in the multiplayer mod (to be included in the next unofficial patch, afaik), exulx surely will be thinking (and taking input) of a way to balance our favorite mages.

just my two (drunken) cents...