What Might Have Been. . .

matthew13 · Post by **matthew13** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:28 pm

SOME SPOILERS

There's probably already a thread out there like this one but, for what it's worth, here are my thoughts on Bloodlines. . .

First, I am enjoying this game immensely. Much of this is due to the fact that I haven't seen hide nor hair of a decent RPG this year, but it is also because much of Bloodlines is well done. I like the character development system. I like the fact that experience is awarded based not on what you kill, but upon quest completions. I like the atmosphere, and the music that is such an essential part of the atmosphere. The voice acting is excellent and the quests aren't all that bad.

Needless to say, this game does need a patch. There are performance issues that need to be addressed, as well as a number of tweaks to dialogue and quests that need to be implemented.

My biggest real gripe is in the area of linearity.

I am puzzled as to why so many gaming companies have problems wrapping their minds around this concept. Now this game has its moments. You can do most side quests in any given area, any time you want, and often there is more than one way to complete any given quest. Yet overall, this game is fairly linear (especially the main quest, which diverges only near the end). Nor is it all that tough to fix the problem.

First, and foremost, all the hubs should have been open from the beginning. The only bar to getting to Hollywood or China Town should have been whether you happen to have cab fare (not even that, in the case of a Nosferatu. . .slogging through sewers is payment enough). So you might stumble into a fight that you can't win. Tough. It gives you the opportunity to use your own judgement, which, in turn, adds to immersion. Opening the hubs sequentially is the designers way of leading the player by the nose. The whole point of being non-linear is NOT being led by the nose.

Second, along with access to the hubs, the player should have access to most normal gear (armor, firearms, swords, etc.). The only bar to this should be money. A more robust merchant system can go a long way towards increasing immersion and character customization.

Third, oddly enough, I regard character customization as an essential part of a non-linear system (this is why I never regarded Thief III as being even vaguely non-linear). Stats are part of it, but the ability to customize clothing and weapons (there were not enough choices) as well as personal appearance (two choices per clan) are very important. These things add immensely to the feeling that you are truly creating your character, instead of going the cookie cutter route. The ability to learn new disciplines would also add to character customization.

Finally, the qeusts need a lot of work. Now I expect some simple side quests (fed ex, and all that), and I'm not really surprised when I run across a main quest that is fairly linear, but a little extra effort can go a long way. Some quests, including the main one, should branch early, forcing the player to make decisions that have real consequences. This adds both to immersion and to replayability. And I like investigative quests that require travel, searching for clues, and talking to people. Investigative quests can make all the travel (i.e. loading) time worthwhile and really link the city together, rather than compartmentalizing the whole thing.

In short, I am a big fan of non-linear games with high immersion factors. Bloodlines delivers on some of this, but it has a ways to go.

Any other thoughts. . .?

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:36 pm

I find myself in general agreement with you--but that's the way Troika makes their games. Arcanum and the Fallout series are less linear, but few quests off the kind of optional progression you prefer. Though alignment does open new doors to you.

You might want to try BG2, if you haven't already. It's far more open-ended while remaining, in the end, essentially linear. Or Morrowind, which, when you add mods, becomes a game of hundreds of quests that can be performed in any order.

But overall, V:TM Bloodlines is fun.

matthew13 · Post by **matthew13** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:52 pm

[QUOTE=fable]
You might want to try BG2, if you haven't already. It's far more open-ended while remaining, in the end, essentially linear. Or Morrowind, which, when you add mods, becomes a game of hundreds of quests that can be performed in any order.
[/QUOTE]

Haven't tried BG2 (in general, I don't care for the 3rd person viewpoint). Morrowind I have tried and have, in fact, modded for (Suran Underworld). And yes, Morrowind is my benchmark for a non-linear game (though it had, and has, game balance issues).

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:10 pm

[QUOTE=matthew13]Haven't tried BG2 (in general, I don't care for the 3rd person viewpoint). Morrowind I have tried and have, in fact, modded for (Suran Underworld). And yes, Morrowind is my benchmark for a non-linear game (though it had, and has, game balance issues).[/QUOTE]

Suran Underworld? A great mod! I've recommended it to others, before. Good work.

If you're looking for other not terribly linear first person RPGs, consider the Gothic series (though I can't abide the combat), or even that old standby, the Ultima Underworld series.

.Monk. · Post by **.Monk.** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:51 am

One thing I was kind of hoping would show up was a lot more clothing and other options. When there was talk of how lousy my clothes were at the first I figured later I'd be able to choose some cool vamp-garb but that never really happened. Simple things like this could have added even more to the fun of the game for very little time and effort. It's not like the textures for the game are the best on the clothes or anything. =)

Monk

Jandau · Post by **Jandau** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:09 pm

Well, the game is quite linear, no question there. I tried to rebel against LaCroix early on and he simply dominated me and ordered me around. I liked the fact that very few quests were tedious and you can plan them out so you have to do a minimum of leg work.

The lack of character customization is annoying. Plain and simple. If they could have had vocals for every line of conversation in the game they could have at least thrown in a few more skins....

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:51 pm

Well, lemme add dis!

The White Wolf RPG games are often.. Vampire espeicaly... Based around a common theme of Powerless-ness-ness-es. Imagine, being given a dose of vampire blood. Suddenly, bullets don't scare you, you can overpower any man, knives are only tempoary set backs... Beaten to a bloody pulp and left for dead by 20 bikies? Give it 15 minutes, you'll be fine... But your totaly enslaved to your master, and unless he orders you to, you really can't do much other then await his will... Frustrating yes?
Well now imagine that vamprie master makes YOU a vampire. Finaly, ultimate power! You can use mortals like pawns in your games, you can have any man/woman you desire, you are stronger then the greatest athletes and more resliant then a tank! Your finaly in charge of your own life, and you'll live forever right?
Wrong! The elders have been around a LOT longer then you. They have suffered much, endured much, learnt much. They are wise beyond human understanding, and so it's their job to guide you and make you understand the way things are for you own good. Of course, for a person whos only JUST found out they are now a god unto themselves, this can be VERY stifling.. Espeicaly when they say "Reveal your true nature to your friends, and we will personaly see you brightening sunsets!"
Frustating, yes?
I understand it's no excuse for the, somewhat straight-forward plot. It CERTAINLY doesn't excuse that I can't change clothes (The elders forbid it??).. But as a player and running of these games, i must admit I NEVER even noticed. The idea of not diong what the Prince said was just... Anathama to me. Why would I risk my own unlife on the off chance that the ruler of LA doesn't feel like taking any c$@p from some neonate today? He could order my head removed and nobody would ever question him...
So yeah, I have to say, I didn't even notice that my options were limited. I just assumed, that from the second I became a vampire, my options were always limited.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:28 pm

Pennypincher, first off, "crap" isn't considered a vulgarity on GameBanshee. Second, please read the forum rules. One of the surest ways of getting your membership rights removed is trying letter substitution to get around vulgarities. Please keep that in mind for the future.

1930 · Post by **1930** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:58 am

Seems to me like this game had great potential, but the developers just dropped the ball at a lot of occasions. Full character customization is of course an essential. Also it feels like a bit of a ripoff when it gives this non linear impression with all the diverse dialogue options, but in the end turns out to be quite linear indeed. Playing with different clans doesn't change that much really (at least not that I know of, feel free to disagree).
Despite all this, it's still one of the best games I played all year, it's just sad to realize that it could have been one of the best games ever...

soni · Post by **soni** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:26 am

Gothic is great

[QUOTE=fable] If you're looking for other not terribly linear first person RPGs, consider the Gothic series (though I can't abide the combat)...[/QUOTE]

Gothic series is one of the best RPG ever... non-linear and an interesting leveling system. I find the battle system quite nice, since it's requiering some kind of tactic, not just using the "fire" button

UBERScholes · Post by **UBERScholes** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:55 am

Well I am not an RPG aficionado, the last I completed was Baldurs Gate 2 some year ago, as a strict traditionalist I have been scared and deeply disturbed by the concept of a 3D world in an RPG. But VTM:B has been a good entry level RPG for me, and because of it I intend to move onto more polished (From what I have heard) pastures since I have thoroughly enjoyed VTM:B so far. Even if it is quite buggy and laggy and glitchy etc... and the combat is pretty insulting, especially as a man who religiously plays online FPS', I have still become addicted and so I'm looking forward to starting another better made RPG. So for me personally it's simplicity has been useful and I intend to acquire other games like Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and maybe some medieval elf type RPG's too although not sure which.

I agree that VTM:B requires a patch but surely it will be inevitable, can't remember the last time I played a game that was not accompanied by patches. We aren't living in the 1970's so I'm sure the developers aren't bone idle.

Ruds · Post by **Ruds** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:04 pm

[QUOTE=fable]I find myself in general agreement with you--but that's the way Troika makes their games. Arcanum and the Fallout series are less linear, but few quests offer the kind of optional progression you prefer.[/QUOTE]

Well, Troika has only made Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Vampire. If you want to consider Fallout their work as well, I guess you could. So tack on Fallout 1 and 2 if you're so inclinded.

With the sole exception of ToEE, which used a Gary Gygax D&D Greyhawk campaign, *ALL* of Troika's games have been nonlinear and immersive. And Troika didn't have any flexibility with ToEE - they followed Gygax's module to a tooth.

I wouldn't bring this up if you were the only one that I've seen say this before, but why do so many people think that Troika's games are less immersive and more linear than other PC RPGs? If anything, they're far more immersive and less linear! That's why I've got to say that Vampire isn't a norm for Troika, it's probably a decline (for me anyway).

Vampire is a great game, and some issues can be patched. In new patches they could even add more skins and character customization, slightly alter some quests, rewards, and dialogue, etc. However, they can't change the linearity of the game once it's been released. No patch ever changes the story line, and for that reason, despite any issues it may have that COULD be fixed in a patch, it is stuck with this one shortcoming for sure.

Back on topic, though... I agree 100% with your statements on immersion and character customization. And seriously, if they could voice act every sentence in the game, you'd think they could add more than 2 skins per clan and 3 clothing apperances.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:53 pm

I wounder how much they have to pay the voice actors per line to text they speak in the game? I mean, there weren't any big hot shot voice over guys in there were there? It's not like they were resurecting JFK to do the voice of the prince... I don't spose anyone knows what these kinda of people are paied do they?

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:27 pm

[QUOTE=Ruds]Well, Troika has only made Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Vampire. If you want to consider Fallout their work as well, I guess you could. So tack on Fallout 1 and 2 if you're so inclinded.p.[/quote]

Since they made 'em, I would be so inclined. They didn't design ToEE; they produced it. Several members of the Troika team were also responsible for designing Wasteland and a few other games, which I also considered when writing my response.

With the sole exception of ToEE, which used a Gary Gygax D&D Greyhawk campaign, *ALL* of Troika's games have been nonlinear and immersive. And Troika didn't have any flexibility with ToEE - they followed Gygax's module to a tooth.

Perhaps if you'd read the post that mine was in reply to, the answer would be more apparent. In part, it said: "I am puzzled as to why so many gaming companies have problems wrapping their minds around this concept. Now this game has its moments. You can do most side quests in any given area, any time you want, and often there is more than one way to complete any given quest. Yet overall, this game is fairly linear (especially the main quest, which diverges only near the end)..."

So Matthew13 was defining linearity for the sake of his argument on the basis of linear progression through a main plot, without variations. And I agree with him, from thta perspective.

I wouldn't bring this up if you were the only one that I've seen say this before, but why do so many people think that Troika's games are less immersive...

Immersiveness is one of those words that PR types like to determine for us. But for me, when it refers to an RPG, it has to do with 1) a game that pulls you in on several levels, and 2) an environment that extremely interactive. Troika's RPGs don't do the first for me, though I generally enjoy them. If they do it for you, fine. As for the second definition of immersiveness, I'd have to say that the most immersive RPGs I've played were the pair of Ultima VII games with their add-ons, and the two "Worlds of Ultima" games, where just about every free-standing object was usable. Many could also be combined to create entirely new objects. Divine Divinity and its successor, Beyond Divinity, have a bit of this, and Anito, the little-known RPG from the Phillipines, has a good deal more.

Vampire is a great game, and some issues can be patched. In new patches they could even add more skins and character customization, slightly alter some quests, rewards, and dialogue, etc. However, they can't change the linearity of the game once it's been released.

I may be missing something, but I didn't say they did, and I haven't read where anybody suggested it was a possibility.

Back on topic, though... I agree 100% with your statements on immersion and character customization. And seriously, if they could voice act every sentence in the game, you'd think they could add more than 2 skins per clan and 3 clothing apperances.

They could have learned a few lessons from the Morrowind modding community, which has provided innumerable clothes, armor, races and quests to the game. I suspect we'll see some of that, in time.

Ruds · Post by **Ruds** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:05 pm

Maybe you know things that I don't, but Interplay made Fallout 1 and 2, and a handful of Interplay people separated and formed Troika, which according to Troika's FAQ on their site, was a name given to their circle of 3 by one of the big head's when they were at Interplay. I guess you could say that made Fallout, just not under thier name.

Troika didn't produce ToEE, Atari did. All of the Atari forums refernce this, the Troika site lists it as a created product. Trust me, I bought ToEE in its extremely buggy release version where one slip meant your game was corrupted and unplayable, if not crashing every 3 minutes. I was on their forums reading and posting more often than I was playing the game. All of the Troika devs responsed "sorry, we can't make a patch until we get the Atari a-okay", etc. I'm pretty confident they made the game.

I said: "However, they can't change the linearity of the game once it's been released."

You said: "I may be missing something, but I didn't say they did, and I haven't read where anybody suggested it was a possibility."

I know I quoted you, but that doesn't mean that everything in my post is a response to you. What I said previously about changing linearity in a patch was just talk to the whole forums, not a rebuttal.

matthew13 · Post by **matthew13** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:24 pm

On the Subject of Linearity

Okay, just as a quick brainstorming example, here are some thoughts as to how I would have made this game non-linear (which should give everybody a pretty good idea as to what I consider non-linear).

First, I would have given the player a real option to tell LaCroix to take a long walk off a short plank, and this option would have been available at any time. Of course, the longer you wait to take it, the less trusted you will be by LaCroix's enemies. I'd have opened up the possibilities of siding with the Anarch's or playing a lone hand immediately. These would have involved different quest-lines where there are overlaps, but where the overlaps are the exception and not the rule. And there would be real consequences to your choices. There would be quests that, if you chose to complete them, would permanently piss off one faction or another. You could well be looking at a Blood Hunt a lot earlier in the game, but if that's the path you want to take, then more power to you.

I'd have come up with a reputation system that is effected by the quests you do and governs reactions for each faction with different factions reacting differently. For example, if you get that gargolye to ally with Simon, then your rep would increase with regards to the Anarchs, but decrease with regards to the Camarilla. Get a low enough reputation with regards to a specific faction and they will start to take action: not talk to you, sell you out to the SoL (and aren't those appropriate initials), put a bounty on your head, or launch a Blood Hunt.

In short, non-linear is the ability to make a variety of choices, and for those choices to have real consequences. Needless to say, this approach increase replayability tremendously, and even as is, Bloodlines is a game well worth replaying.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:02 am

[QUOTE=Ruds]I know I quoted you, but that doesn't mean that everything in my post is a response to you. What I said previously about changing linearity in a patch was just talk to the whole forums, not a rebuttal.[/quote]

No offense meant, but you did personally refer to me (assuming "you" meant me) in your first, third and fifth paragraphs--so I assumed that was the case. I figured the discussion would be interesting to all, since it still dealt with linearity in RPGs.

Maybe you know things that I don't, but Interplay made Fallout 1 and 2, and a handful of Interplay people separated and formed Troika, which according to Troika's FAQ on their site, was a name given to their circle of 3 by one of the big head's when they were at Interplay. I guess you could say that made Fallout, just not under thier name.

Although this is almost spamming (we'll get back to subject in a second), I do know that several of the original Wasteland team members joined Interplay to design the original Fallout, then left it after (the usual) disagreements with Brian Fargo. I like Fargo; I've spoken to him repeatedly over the years since reviewing the original Wasteland, as well as a number of Interplay's other games, since 1985; he's got vision, and administrative skills. But he's pushy as hell, and insists on his way. Or did, while Interplay was more than just windowdressing for another company, as it currently is. I hope he can make a go out of his new venture.

Let's not get into the mess-that-is/was-ToEE. It's a tangled web of who's responsible for what, with all parties blaming one another. In private interview, Boyarsky told me his folks were proudly producing it, but that was a year before its less than spectacular release. Now, all parties take no responsibility for it. I'm still amazed at how buggy that game was when it first appeared. It beat my all time record, previously held by Ultima IX: Ascension, and before that, Darklands (except that Darklands was an exceptional game when it was finally, fully patched).

[QUOTE=Matthew13]I'd have come up with a reputation system that is effected by the quests you do and governs reactions for each faction with different factions reacting differently. For example, if you get that gargolye to ally with Simon, then your rep would increase with regards to the Anarchs, but decrease with regards to the Camarilla. Get a low enough reputation with regards to a specific faction and they will start to take action: not talk to you, sell you out to the SoL (and aren't those appropriate initials), put a bounty on your head, or launch a Blood Hunt.[/quote]

This is remarkably like the system New World Computing mooted about before the release of Might and Magic VI. Their project director told me they envisioned a council of six, with each giving the player's party quests. If you succeeded in helping one repeatedly, his faction's feeling about you rose, but if the feelings of other factions represented on the council dropped. Ultimately, they might start attacking you, along with many of the monster types you fought.

This was finally dropped as too difficult to implement and time-consuming. They were working with a new engine and all new art, so they had quite a bit on their plates. Personally, I've always liked the idea, since it gives a strategic non-linearity to the game.

In short, non-linear is the ability to make a variety of choices, and for those choices to have real consequences. Needless to say, this approach increase replayability tremendously, and even as is, Bloodlines is a game well worth replaying.

Check out the strategy/RPG hybrid, King of Dragon Pass, up on http://www.a-sharp.com. It's the ultimate in replayability for an RPG: 500+ plots, dozens of factors you can control and change, different NPCs from a group of 20+ you can place on your Council, etc.

matthew13 · Post by **matthew13** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:52 am

Got to thinking about the reputation system. It can be used to solve one of the classic RPG problems. . ."why is this guy I just met giving me crap to do when he doesn't know me from his elbow?" As your rep grows, then quests will become available to you from various individuals. This would allow you to open up all areas of LA simultaneously and still maintain some control over the main quest. And, what the hell, it is only a single variable that you'd have to plug in to the equation. Look at the current Bloodlines main quest--your looking at a total of about sixteen to eighteen quests. Give me another 10 and I can give you three more or less independent main quests--camarilla, anarch, lone wolf. Plug reputation into some of the side quests and voila, you've got a non-linear game that not only varies by what clan you choose, but by what side you choose to align yourself.

More to the point, when you choose a different alliance it significantly changes the gaming experience. For me this would be both a replayability and an immersion factor.

Of course, I'm just dreaming here, but it is something that any game that claims to be non-linear should implement in one form or another.

Oh, and I've played M&M VI (as well as VII, VIII, and the very disappointing IX), and I'd have to agree that it would have been complicated to implement, though I'd argue that Bloodlines is a significantly smaller game. I guess I tend to think in terms of Morrowind, and all of a sudden turning Bloodlines into a more non-linear game doesn't seem to be such a large task.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:43 am

[QUOTE=matthew13]Got to thinking about the reputation system. It can be used to solve one of the classic RPG problems. . ."why is this guy I just met giving me crap to do when he doesn't know me from his elbow?" As your rep grows, then quests will become available to you from various individuals.[/quote]

BG2 handled that very well. They had a good out: you'd already achieved a level of prominence thanks to your activities in BG1. The same applies to the Ultima series, though there, Garriott twisted the whole reputation issue in original ways: in Ultima VI, there was a newly discovered continent of gargoyles who viewed your character as the incarnation of evil rather than good, and in Ultima VII: The Black Gate, a separate entity was bent on setting up a different ideology regarding yours as passe. More creatively, PS:T gave your character a reputation--several reputations, in fact--but you didn't know why, because you'd forgotten your previous lives.

One of the things I like least in Troika games is the willingness of everybody you meet for the first time to trust you, an unknown, with incredibly sensitive information and tasks that could get them jailed or killed if generally known. And this isn't simply true of Troika; it's a general problem. Lionheart had perhaps the worst I've seen, in this regard. NPCs proclaimed that my new character was obviously "strong and skilled" at the beginning of the game, when he was neither, possessing next to no strength and endurance. A rabid weasel would have beaten my character. Hell, a annoyed chipmunk could have taken him two falls out of three. And some NPC would let this unknown in on a secret involving treason to the state, and hire him as a bodyguard?

Oh, and I've played M&M VI (as well as VII, VIII, and the very disappointing IX), and I'd have to agree that it would have been complicated to implement, though I'd argue that Bloodlines is a significantly smaller game. I guess I tend to think in terms of Morrowind, and all of a sudden turning Bloodlines into a more non-linear game doesn't seem to be such a large task.

M&M IX was pulled away from van Caneghem by 3D0's president, and given to a team that had never developed a computerized RPG before. They were extremely boastful about their plans, but only succeeded in doing up a decent enemy AI, IMO: most things the older M&M titles did well, the ninth one failed miserably at. And they went so far over time and budget that it eventually got released with some quests quickly implemented as one-minute success stories. (Walk a short distance, pick up quest item, no combat or puzzles.) I think Van Caneghem never should have sold New World Computing to secure funds, but as much can be said for all those companies that sold themselves to Electronic Arts, too: Westwood Studios, Origin Systems, Berkeley Systems, etc.

Back to subject.

Morrowind has other problems due to its size, notably dialog in which most people, everywhere, say the same thing. But I think you're right, it did have a huge number of quests that obscured the linearity of the game. Adding quest mods only increased that. It will be interesting to see how the modding community deals with Bloodlines. I suspect we'll see some sites pop up soon dedicated to expanding the avenues of development for different character types.

Deidre · Post by **Deidre** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:08 am

[QUOTE=pennypincher]I wounder how much they have to pay the voice actors per line to text they speak in the game? I mean, there weren't any big hot shot voice over guys in there were there? It's not like they were resurecting JFK to do the voice of the prince... I don't spose anyone knows what these kinda of people are paied do they?[/QUOTE]

Usually voice actors are paid a one time fee, based on hours or days worked. Some voice actors may get special deals with residuals or points based on sales, especially if they are someone famous or their voice is used for a major character in the game. Some voice actors may play other roles in game promotion that are worked into their deals with the publisher.