Some tips and curiosities I've discovered... (SPOILERS)

Atheocrat · Post by **Atheocrat** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:41 am

I've been reading some threads, and I saw that some people are having difficulties in some parts that I think that's pretty easy... I discovered a lot of techs to kill bosses and solve some problems, I'd like to share with you! But I also want some help to solve problems that I had with one character that I didn't have with the other. I played with 2 characters:

First: Mallina, clan Toreador. Focused on ranged weapons, melee and defense. When the text is pink, this means that I played with her.
Second: Gangrel (uh!), clan Gangrel. Focused on ranged weapons, defense and animalism. His text is blue.

----------------------------------------------------------
Sabbat Warehouse
----------------------------------------------------------

This one was quite interesting. I had enough problem with those sabbat guys just because I didn't know that there was a sneaking option! Ha, ha. When leaving the place, I got lost, but when I had only 5 secs before the explosion, I was saved by Frenzy. Malinna followed that bum that is in front of the entrance of the warehouse. Nice, uh? Actually, this part was quite easy.
Now, it's even more interesting. Even with 4 sneaking, Gangrel simply was enable to sneak! The enemies seemed to have a X-ray vision. So, as you can see, I think that the oned that are having problems here, should focus on ranged attacks, always hiding behing a crate. the game is very unfair at this part.

----------------------------------------------------------
Jezebel Locke
----------------------------------------------------------

quite interesting. I consider her a tough boss. Really... However, you can peacefully cast your disciplines before entering the battle! Just do this: Sneaking, open the door, but don't enter her room. Keep looking inside, until you see her. After the talk, the door will close! The battle will only start when you open it. So, you can reload your weapons, cast all your disciplines, wait...

----------------------------------------------------------
Golden Temple
----------------------------------------------------------

Easy, very easy. I just crossed the whole stage sneaking, and I had no problems at all. but the surprise, again, is here:
Even sneaking, the enemies saw me. Yes, with 6 sneaking and they could see me. Also, I noticed that there are infinite enemies in this stage, they respawn. Also, there are some parts where, when you got caught by an enemy, many spawn around you! My suggestion is, avoid your enemies!

----------------------------------------------------------
Ming Xiao
----------------------------------------------------------

Celerity + Presence really made a difference here. With flamethrower, I took half of her life, and then I killed her with that Jae$%@#%@% shotgun. I just ignored her babies...
Another strange thing. Although both Gangrel and Malinna had 10 ranged weapons, I noticed that she shoots much faster than him with the Jae@%@#% shotgun. Really, Ming Xiao was much harder with him, I had to kill her with the Killmatic.
A tip to kill her: get really close too her, and start spinning aroung her. She'll keep turning, but she won't hurt you. Just keep shooting... ingnore her babies, they are weak anyway.

----------------------------------------------------------
Bishop Vick
----------------------------------------------------------

I attacked him really early in the game. A mistake. Celerity + Bloodbuff, always attacking with the axe. But guess who saved me? Frenzy! Again! Malinna ashed Vick easily with frenzy.
I was afraid of battling Vick, because I knew that this time there wouldn't be any Frenzy... so I fought him at the very end of the game. And... believe or not, EASEE!! With 3 seconds under the fire of the flamethrower, he died! Quick and painless!

----------------------------------------------------------
Final Boss
----------------------------------------------------------

This tactic I used with both characters. A very easy, quick and (also!) painless... pick you killmatic and shoot him! Yes! Jump when he attacks you, and keep shooting! In third-person mode is much easier. Really, the killmatic takes a lot of damage from him.
when he became a bat... even easier. Believe me. I didn't need any light at all, I just hid myself at the corner of the building, and I shot him and he appeard with the killmatic, taking about 200hp each time he appeared. He was very weak at all.

----------------------------------------------------------
Gameplay
----------------------------------------------------------

keep your head sneaked! Always! Seriously! You'll save your skin many times this way. Lots of bosses and hard parts of the game can be easied this way.

Bucky · Post by **Bucky** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:03 pm

I almost never sneaked throughout the game (my nos was an exception because Obfuscate 5 works wonderfully). I never put more than 2 dots in ranged and put everything in either Melee or Brawl and Strength, Stamina and Dodge. I found that even with a 10 in ranged you still shot like crap and did less damage then with Melee and Unarmed attacks. The only Boss i needed ranged weapons with was the very last and i swiped at him with the Katana when he would swoop down in bat form until i had him about 3/4 dead then finished him with the .38 almost every time. I tried the flame thrower and shotguns but they weren't as easy. The other bosses fell quite easily to a flurry of fists or melee weapons. I used Burrowing Beetle quite often too as its ungainly powerful for a second level discipline, even more so than Bloodsuckers Communion or Pestilence which were both pretty worthess.

Atheocrat · Post by **Atheocrat** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:09 pm

You must be a very good player, however, i highly don't recomend using melee at the end of the game. After you Chinatown, it's guntime. There are lots of ranged enemies, some really strong like the crossbowmen at Xiao's temple. the colt anaconda can really make things much easier. Also, guns only require "ranged weapons". Melee needs not only melee, but stamina, strenght... blood buff cannot hold foverer.

Komissar Charon · Post by **Komissar Charon** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:19 pm

Many things here.

First, Gangrel-Ranged isn't a combo I see often. Protean and Fortitude are both great augmentations to their melee capabilities (though as we all know, Protean makes you slow, wah wah wah). So I have to ask- on the most part, did he seem a decently powerful character?

Second, I have *never* had any trouble whatsoever with Jezebel Locke. Even as a ranged Toreador with only 4-5ish points of brawl at the time, and little in the way of Soak and Defense feats, I was able to take her down with bare fists. Why'd she give you so much trouble?

Third, sneaking can be useful, but I wouldn't say it's a must. Sure, it can be useful sometimes- but really only in missions where stealth gets you a bonus, like Elizabeth Dane or the museum. Or, of course, missions where it's *required*, like Imalia and Mitnick's quests.

Fourth, ranged is by no means underpowered, Bucky. Just about any clan can do it well- even a Ventrue character, who has no supporting disciplines for ranged combat, made it through the game easily with a combination of ranged and dominate. Now, if you play with a Toreador, you become godlike by the end of the game with the right choices. 5 Auspex, 5 Celerity, 10 Ranged, and a Lassiter Killmatic is an almost irrestistible combination. However, I will note that ranged has two flaws- hard early in the game when you only have a .38, and very expensive compared to melee.

Fifth, Bloodsuckers' Communion is by no means worthless. Disposing of a troublesome enemy instantly while getting free blood sounds good to me. While it may be debatable that having somebody fight for you and then having the option of draining them dry (Berserk, Possession) is better, but it's still a solid discipline. As for Pestilence, yeah. It's pretty weak, but can still be used for good crowd control purposes.

Bucky · Post by **Bucky** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:25 pm

Bloodsuckers was good for normal thugs and what not, but against sabbat vamps and bosses it did good damage sure, but with little or no blood return it wwasn't a good investment for me. Pestilence was hit or miss most of the time.

As for the ranged needing only "Ranged weapons" as Atheocrat claims, that is untrue. Ranged is a mix of your firearms and perception, like Melee is a mix of you melee and strength, or unarmed a mix of Brawl and Strength. If it was based soley on your firearms skill you'd never get a feat higher than 5. Melee has the advantage of being able to pump up to 11 if you max your skills at 5 Strength 5 Melee and purchase the stone in chinatown. Mix that with a dodge/stamina 10 and fortitude 5 and you can dish out a lot of pain with very little damage in return..

My biggest complaint with ranged was the cost of rearming and upgrading, which is partial offset later in the game if your smart and stock up on fallen enimes bullets, and the inconsistency of damage distrubition with a given weapon. I could deal more damage against some enemies with a Utica than with the Spaz 15. And in my experience, even with a high ranged feat you still had 50% accuracy although damage was higher. The way damage is calculated you actually had a higher damage ratio with things like the Brock 17 and .38 than with the colt or the 50 cal because you far exceeded the feat requirement with the lighter guns and got a "bonus" when using them.

Atheocrat · Post by **Atheocrat** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:23 pm

Well, that's funny

I don't cross the whole game sneaking, but hotel hallowbrook, the warehouse and other areas get much easier with it!

In my opinion, melee is great in the middle of the game, but it consumes a lot of experience. Gangrel actually has a fighting bonus, but only during frenzy. Melee makes you too vulnerable to an enemy that you can hurt a lot before getting too nearby.

Bucky, which clan did you use? I'll try your melee thing later...

Pestilence is more useful for ranged fighters. Some places have lots of enemies, like the ventrue tower. Pestilence quickly kill them all, granting easy ammo.

But nobody xplained to me that sneaking thing. Everybody could see my gangrel, but no one could see my toreador. Why? Both had the same sneaking stats...

msxyz · Post by **msxyz** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:51 am

I usually do most of the warrens and of the final levels sneaking and I can avoid combat 90% of times. God knows how I hate the combat oriented levels of this game. Some are fun (Zhao warehoue, the parking) but the final missions are really boring to death.

Early Protean levels sucks; as a metter of fact with a decent brawl ability you can do more damage in less time to fiends like Jezebel, Vick and the such. With protean level 5 the sheriff went down before he could take half of health from me. The giant mutant bat thingy is not better either. The real boss fight is Ming Xiao: even if with the flamethrower you can decrease her health down I still recommend to use a magnum pistol or shotgun to finish her off while moving around.

Characters with Dominate (Ventrue, Tremere) should use suicide and a few bloodpacks: Ming Xiao and the sheriff went down easily as each strike does 50+ of damage. With all the lesser bosses, Blood Bluff is your best ally.

Komissar Charon · Post by **Komissar Charon** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:31 pm

Bucky wrote:Bloodsuckers was good for normal thugs and what not, but against sabbat vamps and bosses it did good damage sure, but with little or no blood return it wwasn't a good investment for me. Pestilence was hit or miss most of the time.

True, but there are plenty of people that can be affected by it in the majority of areas- even places like the Hotel Hallowbrook have a large number of humans that you can take the blood from.

Bucky wrote:As for the ranged needing only "Ranged weapons" as Atheocrat claims, that is untrue. Ranged is a mix of your firearms and perception, like Melee is a mix of you melee and strength, or unarmed a mix of Brawl and Strength. If it was based soley on your firearms skill you'd never get a feat higher than 5. Melee has the advantage of being able to pump up to 11 if you max your skills at 5 Strength 5 Melee and purchase the stone in chinatown. Mix that with a dodge/stamina 10 and fortitude 5 and you can dish out a lot of pain with very little damage in return..

No offense, but you basically proved his point. I believe that what he was trying to say is that for a ranged character to be effective, all you need is 10 Ranged Combat feat. For a melee to be effective, on the other hand, you need 10 Unarmed or Melee feat, plus an assortment of defensive stats like Defense and Soak, which cost extra experience. Having played both a melee and ranged character, I can pretty much verify this. I can say with a good degree of certainty that a melee Brujah would have little chance against a ranged Toreador of equal experience. But then again, both can easily dominate anything in their path. The bottom line is that Bloodlines is very easy if you know how to play it well, regardless of clan or play type, and it's pointless discussing whether your Brujah with max Celerity, Potence, Presence, and Brawl can take on my Tremere with max Dominate, Thaumaturgy, Auspex, and Ranged.

My biggest complaint with ranged was the cost of rearming and upgrading, which is partial offset later in the game if your smart and stock up on fallen enimes bullets, and the inconsistency of damage distrubition with a given weapon. I could deal more damage against some enemies with a Utica than with the Spaz 15. And in my experience, even with a high ranged feat you still had 50% accuracy although damage was higher. The way damage is calculated you actually had a higher damage ratio with things like the Brock 17 and .38 than with the colt or the 50 cal because you far exceeded the feat requirement with the lighter guns and got a "bonus" when using them.

The first part is partially true, but regardless, I never experienced such thing as an ammo shortage. And even if I came close to doing so, I would have had a 5 Brawl skill to back me up- something that many ranged players neglect and try to use as an excuse as to why ranged characters are underpowered. Second, about the Utica-Spazz issue, damage is by no means the Spazz's main advantage over the Utica. Sure, it does somewhat more damage, fires somewhat faster, and is somewhat more accurate (at the expense of lethality), but it does not take ages to reload. THAT is a major bonus, my friend. As for the issue of comparing handguns, it didn't bother me at all. I dropped both revolvers in favor of pistols later in the game, and eventually let go of the Brokk to make room for automatic weapons. Regardless, I will concede that the Brokk is somewhat overpowered compared to the Anaconda, especially with its slow fire rate and wimpy 6-round clip. The Desert Eagle, however, beats them all. And is in turn beaten by automatic weapons like the Steyr and Killmatic. But hey, Melee weapons aren't immune to it either. I hardly noticed a difference between the Fire Axe and Knife, and the relative power of Katana as compared to Sledgehammer or later Bush Hook is completely relative. Whether you're using melee or ranged weapons, it always boils down to a simple matter of choice. Sometimes the answer is obvious, sometimes it isn't. But choice, as we all know, is an essential element in any RPG.

...

Does anybody else notice the ludricious extent to which I ramble?

Bucky · Post by **Bucky** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:00 pm

I agree somewhat, but a purly ranged charcter still takes damage from a ranged enemy, and then also suffers from melee enemies. Ranged is not a really viable tool. Its stated through out the game that bullets do little to a vampire, but blades are deadly. sure, some people have beaten the game or various bosses utilizing ranged weapons but Im sure that it took more time and patience to do so then a melee or brawl moster who just ran up and beat the snot out of them.

showoffjp · Post by **showoffjp** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:43 pm

Sneaky sneaky

With my Torredor, it got to the point(espeacially at places like Society of Leopold, Ming Xiao temple, and other later game parts) where I could sneak right in front of people, even stealth killing people right in front of them, without them noticing. Though it was fun breaking over 100 necks at the society of Leopold(I bet the CSI's had a blast with figuring what the cause of death was for each one...), and sticking my katana through all those crazy, respawning chinese guys, I was slightly disapointed in the developement of some of the things in the whole stealth mode, due to the fact that I only had a point total of 5, with nothing ever getting above green on my numbers/indicators. It would be quite funny when I would get out my fire ax, chopping some bodies into others, while they still were too stupid to notice(Hey! Watch it Wong Chow! Why you look so glum?)Inceasing stealth even to 10 didn't seem to have any effect at all; oh well...it was fun none the less...

Komissar Charon · Post by **Komissar Charon** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:29 pm

[QUOTE=Bucky]I agree somewhat, but a purly ranged charcter still takes damage from a ranged enemy, and then also suffers from melee enemies.[/QUOTE]

Obviously you've never heard of Celerity.

[QUOTE=Bucky]Ranged is not a really viable tool. Its stated through out the game that bullets do little to a vampire, but blades are deadly. sure, some people have beaten the game or various bosses utilizing ranged weapons but Im sure that it took more time and patience to do so then a melee or brawl moster who just ran up and beat the snot out of them.[/QUOTE]

Oddly enough, my ranged Toreador *never* died in combat, only from stupid mistakes during puzzles and the like.

Bucky · Post by **Bucky** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:49 pm

Not all Clans have celerity, so my point still stands.

Maxinion · Post by **Maxinion** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:06 pm

My ranged Ventrue never died against bosses. Bullets are not 100% effective againts Vampires, but I was able to defeat the Carnival Murderer, Ming Xiao, the entire Nosferatu warrens (all supernatural enemies), etc. Ranged is completely viable, just... different. Bah, we're all such children. We've hijacked this topic into yet another ranged vs. melee topic. Suffice to say: play the game how you want! Melee is great, ranged is great, disciplines are great! Have fun! And all paths are open to you, as long as you take some fighting skills.

Jean_sans_terre · Post by **Jean_sans_terre** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:34 pm

[QUOTE=Maxinion]Bah, we're all such children. We've hijacked this topic into yet another ranged vs. melee topic. Suffice to say: play the game how you want! Melee is great, ranged is great, disciplines are great! Have fun! And all paths are open to you, as long as you take some fighting skills.[/QUOTE]

Hear, hear!

*raises his mug to salute Maxinion*