"ItemUpgrade makes the game significantly easier."
Arguable. That particular mod is pretty well balanced. The items available aren't overwhelmingly more powerful than what is available in the game itself... for example, there's plenty of weapons which are as powerful as the Celestial Fury +5, such as the Flail of Ages +5 and the Axe of Unyielding +5. What it does is make it more convenient, allowing you to spread out your use of weapon proficiencies throughout the game rather than just good at a particular point in time. I would argue this much, at least - the power boost you get from Item Upgrade is -not- sufficient to overcome the increased challenge of Ascension. Were someone to include mods that -only- make the game easier, and none of the mods that increase the challenge, then sure, the game would be trivial, but that's not the case for most people, and it doesn't compare to just going mad creating +4 THACO/damage gauntlets for all of your characters with cheat codes.
"In the end of a regular, unmodded game, money is never an issue for the player, as you hit a roof."
More or less true. but one of the big reasons you have so much money is because you're constantly selling off all of those useless items that wind up becoming components of useful items in ItemUpgrade. Not only do the item upgrades themselves suck up a lot of gold, 5k-20k at a time, but you're also not getting the revenue that you did from selling off the then-useless items. For me, the fact that gold does become an issue in the modded game is what makes it more fun and an improvement to the game rather than just a cheat.
"So there you are, with all your money, and still the same equipment you're supposed to have."
Well, I can have all my players wear boots of speed. Or I can have my characters wear boots of the north/boots of avoidance/etc. and cast haste every couple of turns. Or I can use the item upgrade mod, suck up a bunch of that previously useless gold, and void the pain of casting haste/resting every few minutes. Yes, it makes the game easier, but not in an unbalanced way such that Ascension or other mods that seek to increase the challenge of the game are made trivial.
Qwinn
The kensai-mage versus berzerker-mage debate thread
[QUOTE=Qwinn]"ItemUpgrade makes the game significantly easier."
Arguable. That particular mod is pretty well balanced. The items available aren't overwhelmingly more powerful than what is available in the game itself... for example, there's plenty of weapons which are as powerful as the Celestial Fury +5, such as the Flail of Ages +5 and the Axe of Unyielding +5.
Qwinn[/QUOTE]
I don't agree, I use Item Upgrade and it's definetly unbalanced with vanilla SoA.: actually there aren't "plenty of weapon" as powerful as Celestial Fury+5 and the few you'll get in the end of ToB, while Celestial Fury +5 is obtainable early in SoA; and as C.F.+5 there is Pitchwife +5 (obtainable early on too), Water Edge (very cheesy) and some other very powerfull weapon all in SoA.
I play with item unpgrade, but I think it makes sense (it's balanced) with a modded game (tactics/battles/Ascension) and to give a refresh to the game.
As for the money issue, definetly money it's not a problem: it's true that you are not selling some stuff, but I always found buying stuff I wouldn't use just to use money I couldn't spent anyway, so it want be a problem (except maybe early on where you will have to make some choice) to spend 200k gold to upgrade the items necessary to your team.
Arguable. That particular mod is pretty well balanced. The items available aren't overwhelmingly more powerful than what is available in the game itself... for example, there's plenty of weapons which are as powerful as the Celestial Fury +5, such as the Flail of Ages +5 and the Axe of Unyielding +5.
Qwinn[/QUOTE]
I don't agree, I use Item Upgrade and it's definetly unbalanced with vanilla SoA.: actually there aren't "plenty of weapon" as powerful as Celestial Fury+5 and the few you'll get in the end of ToB, while Celestial Fury +5 is obtainable early in SoA; and as C.F.+5 there is Pitchwife +5 (obtainable early on too), Water Edge (very cheesy) and some other very powerfull weapon all in SoA.
I play with item unpgrade, but I think it makes sense (it's balanced) with a modded game (tactics/battles/Ascension) and to give a refresh to the game.
As for the money issue, definetly money it's not a problem: it's true that you are not selling some stuff, but I always found buying stuff I wouldn't use just to use money I couldn't spent anyway, so it want be a problem (except maybe early on where you will have to make some choice) to spend 200k gold to upgrade the items necessary to your team.
[QUOTE=glenfar]
As for straight combat, the B/M has a slight edge in defense (don't forget they can wear a helmet giving -1AC plus protection from critical hits), but the K/M has a slight edge in [/QUOTE]
K/M can wear ioun stones, so they can get similar benefit to B/M wearing helmets, they also have a natural +2 AC on top, so they can reach higher AC than a B/M (there was a very detailed thread written by Littiz on the topic). The real adv. of B/M is the rage in the first part of the game (later your saves will suffice most of the time) and against special encounter throughout the game.
As for straight combat, the B/M has a slight edge in defense (don't forget they can wear a helmet giving -1AC plus protection from critical hits), but the K/M has a slight edge in [/QUOTE]
K/M can wear ioun stones, so they can get similar benefit to B/M wearing helmets, they also have a natural +2 AC on top, so they can reach higher AC than a B/M (there was a very detailed thread written by Littiz on the topic). The real adv. of B/M is the rage in the first part of the game (later your saves will suffice most of the time) and against special encounter throughout the game.
[QUOTE=lompo]K/M can wear ioun stones, so they can get similar benefit to B/M wearing helmets, they also have a natural +2 AC on top, so they can reach higher AC than a B/M[/QUOTE]
Ioun stones don't protect against critical hits, and are less common (at least in SoA). So you can expect to be without one (especially one that offers an AC bonus) for a good chunk of SoA - meanwhile you can get a helmet in Irenicus's Dungeon that provides an AC bonus.
Also (as mentioned in an earlier post), B/M can use a shield, which can provide up to a +4AC bonus (even more against missles). Plus B/M gains a +2 AC bonus while enraged (and yes, that's not as good as a natural +2, but it's there when you need it).
[QUOTE=lompo]The real adv. of B/M is the rage in the first part of the game (later your saves will suffice most of the time) and against special encounter throughout the game.[/QUOTE]
Well, when you solo, it only takes one failed saving throw to kill you ... even in a party, it can deadly. Just wait until your K/M starts attacking your own party in confusion, and going for the extra damage won't seem like such a great idea!
Ioun stones don't protect against critical hits, and are less common (at least in SoA). So you can expect to be without one (especially one that offers an AC bonus) for a good chunk of SoA - meanwhile you can get a helmet in Irenicus's Dungeon that provides an AC bonus.
Also (as mentioned in an earlier post), B/M can use a shield, which can provide up to a +4AC bonus (even more against missles). Plus B/M gains a +2 AC bonus while enraged (and yes, that's not as good as a natural +2, but it's there when you need it).
[QUOTE=lompo]The real adv. of B/M is the rage in the first part of the game (later your saves will suffice most of the time) and against special encounter throughout the game.[/QUOTE]
Well, when you solo, it only takes one failed saving throw to kill you ... even in a party, it can deadly. Just wait until your K/M starts attacking your own party in confusion, and going for the extra damage won't seem like such a great idea!
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[QUOTE=glenfar]Ioun stones don't protect against critical hits, and are less common (at least in SoA). So you can expect to be without one (especially one that offers an AC bonus) for a good chunk of SoA - meanwhile you can get a helmet in Irenicus's Dungeon that provides an AC bonus.
[/QUOTE]
ioun stones do protect you from crit hits, its been well known and proven fact for a long time.
and you can pick one up from the graveyard way early...
[/QUOTE]
ioun stones do protect you from crit hits, its been well known and proven fact for a long time.
and you can pick one up from the graveyard way early...
They call me Darth...
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
[QUOTE=glenfar]Ioun stones don't protect against critical hits, [/QUOTE]
Though it isn't stated in the description, I read somewhere everything that can be put into the helmet slot protects from critical hits, it's a game engine thingie
Though it isn't stated in the description, I read somewhere everything that can be put into the helmet slot protects from critical hits, it's a game engine thingie
There are three kinds of people that no one understands: geniuses, madmen and guys that mumble.
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Yeah even king strohm mask protects you from critical hits. There is that green ioun stone, +10% base hp and +1 to thac0, pretty good but not as good as helm of balduran. But the most important thing about helmets is that there are so many helmets for different situations. Helm of charm protection is a very good item at watchers keep for instance.
After playing this a great deal I would say, for soloing SoA a B/M dualed at level 9. For playing in a party SoA perhaps k/m dualed at level 9. For soloing ToB I would consider dropping the dual class and go with a fighter/illusionist, but then again the higher caster level of the dual class can be important at times.
My favourite is still the berserker/mage, doesn't have problems with anything.
After playing this a great deal I would say, for soloing SoA a B/M dualed at level 9. For playing in a party SoA perhaps k/m dualed at level 9. For soloing ToB I would consider dropping the dual class and go with a fighter/illusionist, but then again the higher caster level of the dual class can be important at times.
My favourite is still the berserker/mage, doesn't have problems with anything.
You can't handle the truth!
Just wanted to say for the record that so far, the berzerker mage seems to me to be significantly superior to the kensai mage (when both are dualled at 13, anyway). I haven't noted any noticable difference in straight out offensive power, and the berzerker mage's greater equipment options and immunities-on-demand have been extremely useful. And I'm saying this as someone who was a -very- big fan of kensai mages. But right now, after trying both, I'm thinking the only thing the kensai-mage really has on the berzerker-mage is style.
There is one caveat I do have to add though. All things were not equal - my kensai game was unmodded, and my berzerker game has been heavily modded. Any real difference, though, in terms of actual combat? Not in weapons - I'm using axes that were available in the unmodded game. I'd have to say the only real difference is the grandmastery patch, which grants a greater # of attacks per round. It could certainly be true that that's the only reason their offensive power seems equivalent (my kensai never went beyond specializing in anything), and a kensai-mage with the grandmastery patch would blow away the berzerker. But frankly, I doubt it. My kensai had better weapons, and I still think the immunities when berzerk are far more useful than the kensai's abilities (frankly, I found the kensai's kai ability to be kinda useless, to the point that I stopped using it pretty quickly).
Flails are still definetly better than axes, though I haven't gotten to use AzureEdge against undead much yet (I'll be trying the liches soon) I was very disappointed to find that AzureEdge -cannot- be dual-wielded or used with a shield, even if you're using it in melee. A much better way for that to have been coded would've been to disable the ability to use it as a missile weapon if there was anything in the off-hand.
Since I may be beta-testing some mods soon, I think my next game I'll go through with a blunt-weapon-only berzerker-mage (spreading his proficiencies out between flails, hammers and maces, since all 3 of those have nice stuff). That'll eliminate the grandmastery patch for the sake of testing. And that'll be my last use of any fighter-mage variant for a while. Next will be a paladin (probably an Inquisitor, I've already done Undead Hunter), and then maybe I'll give either Berzerker/Thief or Cleric/Ranger a try.
Qwinn
There is one caveat I do have to add though. All things were not equal - my kensai game was unmodded, and my berzerker game has been heavily modded. Any real difference, though, in terms of actual combat? Not in weapons - I'm using axes that were available in the unmodded game. I'd have to say the only real difference is the grandmastery patch, which grants a greater # of attacks per round. It could certainly be true that that's the only reason their offensive power seems equivalent (my kensai never went beyond specializing in anything), and a kensai-mage with the grandmastery patch would blow away the berzerker. But frankly, I doubt it. My kensai had better weapons, and I still think the immunities when berzerk are far more useful than the kensai's abilities (frankly, I found the kensai's kai ability to be kinda useless, to the point that I stopped using it pretty quickly).
Flails are still definetly better than axes, though I haven't gotten to use AzureEdge against undead much yet (I'll be trying the liches soon)
I was very disappointed to find that AzureEdge -cannot- be dual-wielded or used with a shield, even if you're using it in melee. A much better way for that to have been coded would've been to disable the ability to use it as a missile weapon if there was anything in the off-hand.Since I may be beta-testing some mods soon, I think my next game I'll go through with a blunt-weapon-only berzerker-mage (spreading his proficiencies out between flails, hammers and maces, since all 3 of those have nice stuff). That'll eliminate the grandmastery patch for the sake of testing. And that'll be my last use of any fighter-mage variant for a while. Next will be a paladin (probably an Inquisitor, I've already done Undead Hunter), and then maybe I'll give either Berzerker/Thief or Cleric/Ranger a try.
Qwinn
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Edar Macilrille
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I have been thinking about this and I do not like Berserker-Mage. Not for game purposes, they may be fine, but I think this is what in WiF-circles are called "gamey" (exploiting rules to win in WiF instead of tactics). My reasoning is as follows.
I am from a pen and paper background, having played a lot of Rolemaster since 1986 when I started with MERP. Thus that influences me.
Further, I am a Ma. of history with speciality in 8th- 12th century Danish history (Lund is Danish with the rest of Skåne ). And, lastly, I am a viking reenactor, doing viking martial arts with blunt copies of their weapons two times every week and traveling around exhibiting my skill with my friends at viking markets all over Northern Europe ell summer.
I am thus both a fighter and intellectual and have thought much about the warrior spirit or warrior way... Or, if you will, Bushi-Do...
The berserker is obviously based on the Celtic, Germanic and Norse berserkers of (in)fame, the word itself being the norse Bersærk which menas "Bear-Coat" or clad in bearcoat. Other frenzied warriors were the Ulfhednir meaning "Wolfskins". These warriors (at least the norse ones) fought in a frenzy, being possessed by Odin, the king of the gods, war god and god of death. We do not know much about it. But we do know something of how a Fantasy mage works. He dedicates hours, days, years to magical research, study and experimentation and so on and so forth. Years spent in quiet contemplation of the mysterious workings of the forces of magic. Years spent in learning to direct and control this force. To channel it without being burned to a cinder. This takes contemplation, quiet, research and intellect. Meanwhile the berserker is training to work himself into a frenzy, drinks bear's blood, bites shields and perfects his frenzied fighting skills, or even performs the same sort of Sundance Odin did in order to get the magical runes (pinned himself to the holy tree of life Yggdrasill, with his own holy spear, and hung there for nine days in trance).
Now it may be me, but those two does sound a bit incompatible. So for roleplaying reasons I would never make a Berserker-Mage.
A kensai on the other hand, means "Sword Saint" in Japanese and is the japanese name for the most famous of all Samurais, Miamotu Musashi, author of "A book of Nine Rings" (excellent book, anyone with an interest in anything martial should read it). Musashi himself recommends spending time in quiet contemplation and meditation, to perfect ALL arts and ALWAYS excell. He himself did excellent smithwork and ink paintings (some of both still survive). Thus a Kensai that is not actively training will meditate and perfect his Ki/spirit attaining the calmness of Zen. This could be combined with quiet contemplation and meditation of the nature and manipulation of the force of magic. Thus, in my book, Kensai-Mage is just about acceptable, but Berserker-Mage are about as compatible as fire and ice.
Just my 12 øre.
Best wishes; Palle, on a backup computer that does not allow BG and thus with withdrawal symptoms;-)
I am from a pen and paper background, having played a lot of Rolemaster since 1986 when I started with MERP. Thus that influences me.
Further, I am a Ma. of history with speciality in 8th- 12th century Danish history (Lund is Danish with the rest of Skåne
). And, lastly, I am a viking reenactor, doing viking martial arts with blunt copies of their weapons two times every week and traveling around exhibiting my skill with my friends at viking markets all over Northern Europe ell summer.I am thus both a fighter and intellectual and have thought much about the warrior spirit or warrior way... Or, if you will, Bushi-Do...
The berserker is obviously based on the Celtic, Germanic and Norse berserkers of (in)fame, the word itself being the norse Bersærk which menas "Bear-Coat" or clad in bearcoat. Other frenzied warriors were the Ulfhednir meaning "Wolfskins". These warriors (at least the norse ones) fought in a frenzy, being possessed by Odin, the king of the gods, war god and god of death. We do not know much about it. But we do know something of how a Fantasy mage works. He dedicates hours, days, years to magical research, study and experimentation and so on and so forth. Years spent in quiet contemplation of the mysterious workings of the forces of magic. Years spent in learning to direct and control this force. To channel it without being burned to a cinder. This takes contemplation, quiet, research and intellect. Meanwhile the berserker is training to work himself into a frenzy, drinks bear's blood, bites shields and perfects his frenzied fighting skills, or even performs the same sort of Sundance Odin did in order to get the magical runes (pinned himself to the holy tree of life Yggdrasill, with his own holy spear, and hung there for nine days in trance).
Now it may be me, but those two does sound a bit incompatible. So for roleplaying reasons I would never make a Berserker-Mage.
A kensai on the other hand, means "Sword Saint" in Japanese and is the japanese name for the most famous of all Samurais, Miamotu Musashi, author of "A book of Nine Rings" (excellent book, anyone with an interest in anything martial should read it). Musashi himself recommends spending time in quiet contemplation and meditation, to perfect ALL arts and ALWAYS excell. He himself did excellent smithwork and ink paintings (some of both still survive). Thus a Kensai that is not actively training will meditate and perfect his Ki/spirit attaining the calmness of Zen. This could be combined with quiet contemplation and meditation of the nature and manipulation of the force of magic. Thus, in my book, Kensai-Mage is just about acceptable, but Berserker-Mage are about as compatible as fire and ice.
Just my 12 øre.
Best wishes; Palle, on a backup computer that does not allow BG and thus with withdrawal symptoms;-)
Edar:
*nod* In a vacuum, I agree that they do seem to be rather incompatible as far as roleplaying goes, especially if one cannot separate the berzerker half of the equation from it's historical antecedent.
This would be why I said in my review that "after trying both, I'm thinking the only thing the kensai-mage really has on the berzerker-mage is style."
There -is- one way to play it off though, at least within the context of the storyline in Baldur's Gate 2. I basically play it as that the PC achieves the berzerker state purely through his being a child of Bhaal. He doesn't -have- to bite shields, drink bear blood, etc. - he's got the essence of the God of Murder, and can call it up (or rather, stop suppressing it) at will. Call it a very limited form of the Slayer transformation.
In that sense, it can actually be pretty satisfying to roleplay the berzerker mage (in fact, I RP that he switches to mage precisely because he was dwelling on the berzerker state too long and it was becoming too tempting, so he chose the discipline of magic to help him "quiet the fury within"). But you're right that the two would be pretty incompatible without that story element to make it possible.
Qwinn
*nod* In a vacuum, I agree that they do seem to be rather incompatible as far as roleplaying goes, especially if one cannot separate the berzerker half of the equation from it's historical antecedent.
This would be why I said in my review that "after trying both, I'm thinking the only thing the kensai-mage really has on the berzerker-mage is style."
There -is- one way to play it off though, at least within the context of the storyline in Baldur's Gate 2. I basically play it as that the PC achieves the berzerker state purely through his being a child of Bhaal. He doesn't -have- to bite shields, drink bear blood, etc. - he's got the essence of the God of Murder, and can call it up (or rather, stop suppressing it) at will. Call it a very limited form of the Slayer transformation.
In that sense, it can actually be pretty satisfying to roleplay the berzerker mage (in fact, I RP that he switches to mage precisely because he was dwelling on the berzerker state too long and it was becoming too tempting, so he chose the discipline of magic to help him "quiet the fury within"). But you're right that the two would be pretty incompatible without that story element to make it possible.
Qwinn
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Edar Macilrille
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Hmmm, I dunno, a plausible justification, but I still would not do it. I am too much the viking and historian.
(I also hate Gladiator, Braveheart, LoTR and just about every other film deviating from history or the story, and DO NOT mention 13th Warrior)
Best wishes, Palle, waiting for a hot date to call, or not as she chose;-)
(I also hate Gladiator, Braveheart, LoTR and just about every other film deviating from history or the story, and DO NOT mention 13th Warrior)
Best wishes, Palle, waiting for a hot date to call, or not as she chose;-)
"you can use a shield with azure edge."
??? How? Whenever I have Azuredge equipped and try to equip a shield, it says something like "You have a two-handed missile weapon equipped" (even though the description says it's a 1-handed weapon).
Note that I pretty much always have the Baldurdash fixpack installed. I mention that cause that might be something that would be affected by it.
Qwinn
??? How? Whenever I have Azuredge equipped and try to equip a shield, it says something like "You have a two-handed missile weapon equipped" (even though the description says it's a 1-handed weapon).
Note that I pretty much always have the Baldurdash fixpack installed. I mention that cause that might be something that would be affected by it.
Qwinn
"Berserk" Celtic warriors
[QUOTE=Edar Macilrille]The berserker is obviously based on the Celtic, Germanic and Norse berserkers...[/QUOTE]
Just a bit of pedantry, largely irrelevent to the main discussion.
IMO, it is inappropriate to describe the heroes of Celtic mythology as "berserkers", or to assume the D&D Class is (partly) inspired by same. While "frenzied fighting" was historically employed in pitched battle by some classes of warrior in various tribes/nations, it was not the ideal of the "perfect warrior".
When reading Irish mythology it strikes me how it is (almost) always emphasied that the hero must excell in the learned arts first and foremost. While they were certainly warriors rather than, say, druids/priests, heroes like Finn Mac Cool or kings like Connor Mac Nessa must first prove themselves masters of poetry, music, natural history, the healing arts, etc. before they can be taken seriously as fighters. Wisdom is seen as a greater virtue than mere valour - after all, all Celts were expected to be fearless and strong, but wise heads are never so commonly found! IMO, this is in stark contrast to the Germanic legends, which typically concentrate on martial prowess and physical might and in which intellectual skills are seen as an effeminate distraction. So the Celts should more likely be held up as examples of "Kensai" - though half the globe and an utterly different language away from that Class's more obvious inspiration! Bold and terrible when force is needed in a violent world, but ever mindful that violence is not an end in itself - not a philosophical balance usually associated with berserk killing-machines!
There are, of course, significant exceptions to this generalisation - Celtic CuChullain had little interest except in fighting, while Germanic Wotan sacrificed himself to gain knowledge. But these are unique figures in their respective cultures and do not represent the model to which the typical "swordsman-in-the-street" would aspire - likely brave, loyal, uncomplicated Tyr for the average viking huscarl or the aforementioned Finn for his Celtic counterpart. It should be emphasised that CuChullainn is in many ways the archetypical "berserker"*, sometimes entering an uncontrolled frenzy which would warp his very body into twisted, gargantuan forms. But all accounts emphasise not only his uniqueness (destined from birth for a life of conflict, singular fame and an early grave) but also that he was not, himself, a true Celt!** And we can perhaps divine more about a people's nature from their art and aspirations than from official documents - the macho absurdities of, say, a typical Hollywood movie probably tells us more about popular attitudes than, say, a perusal of politically-correct legislation!
The "classical" civilisations may have called the Celts "barbarians" - but they used the same term (and probably made similar assumptions about), say, the sophisticated Chinese! Caesar et al. slaughtered most of the Celtic people and largely extinguished their culture in most of Europe - so of course the victors portray their victims as bellicose savages, deserving of extinction. But that is not the story told by the Celts themselves, nor by modern archaelogy... Moreover, it should be noted that the so-called "Dark Ages" in Europe correspond with a Golden Age in Gaelic culture, when Celtic Christian monasticism flourished and was fundamental in re-converting and re-educating pagan Western Europe. This was not a sudden reversal by a formerly brutish, uncultured society, but was a natural evolution built upon a thousand years of spiritual tradition.
Anyways, didn't mean to go on so long - was actually reading this thread coz I'm currently playing a Kensai-Mage for the first time, not coz I wanted to argue cultural differences between barbarians! But I don't have a lot to add to the main discussion - am only half-way through SoA in my first-ever dualling of a PC, so am no expert. Will just say -
1) Full Grand-Mastery*** is good fun even with an unexciting staff - can't wait to get some of the biggies! BTW, this is the "Darth Maul" approach, suggested a while ago by Sorry-I-forget-who; it tailors the 2 classes together v. nicely, except that one does have to "waste" a proficiency as a young mage to temporarily re-learn staff !
2) "No bracers" is a pain. I *love* the Robe of Vecna, but would base AC 5 ain't great...
3) Haven't been in this Forum for ages, so hello (again) everybody!
B.
* = really pedantic, but "berserker" is a particularly unsuitable term, since Celtic fanatics fought "sky-clad" (naked) without a scrap of hide of any beast!
** = short & dark-haired, rather than tall & fair (like eg. his charioteer).
It seems clear C. was at least partly descended from the pre-Celtic majority population, rather than the Celtic ruling class.
*** = with 2 proficiencies in 2-h weapon, of course!
Enough footnotes!
[QUOTE=Edar Macilrille]The berserker is obviously based on the Celtic, Germanic and Norse berserkers...[/QUOTE]
Just a bit of pedantry, largely irrelevent to the main discussion.
IMO, it is inappropriate to describe the heroes of Celtic mythology as "berserkers", or to assume the D&D Class is (partly) inspired by same. While "frenzied fighting" was historically employed in pitched battle by some classes of warrior in various tribes/nations, it was not the ideal of the "perfect warrior".
When reading Irish mythology it strikes me how it is (almost) always emphasied that the hero must excell in the learned arts first and foremost. While they were certainly warriors rather than, say, druids/priests, heroes like Finn Mac Cool or kings like Connor Mac Nessa must first prove themselves masters of poetry, music, natural history, the healing arts, etc. before they can be taken seriously as fighters. Wisdom is seen as a greater virtue than mere valour - after all, all Celts were expected to be fearless and strong, but wise heads are never so commonly found! IMO, this is in stark contrast to the Germanic legends, which typically concentrate on martial prowess and physical might and in which intellectual skills are seen as an effeminate distraction. So the Celts should more likely be held up as examples of "Kensai" - though half the globe and an utterly different language away from that Class's more obvious inspiration! Bold and terrible when force is needed in a violent world, but ever mindful that violence is not an end in itself - not a philosophical balance usually associated with berserk killing-machines!
There are, of course, significant exceptions to this generalisation - Celtic CuChullain had little interest except in fighting, while Germanic Wotan sacrificed himself to gain knowledge. But these are unique figures in their respective cultures and do not represent the model to which the typical "swordsman-in-the-street" would aspire - likely brave, loyal, uncomplicated Tyr for the average viking huscarl or the aforementioned Finn for his Celtic counterpart. It should be emphasised that CuChullainn is in many ways the archetypical "berserker"*, sometimes entering an uncontrolled frenzy which would warp his very body into twisted, gargantuan forms. But all accounts emphasise not only his uniqueness (destined from birth for a life of conflict, singular fame and an early grave) but also that he was not, himself, a true Celt!** And we can perhaps divine more about a people's nature from their art and aspirations than from official documents - the macho absurdities of, say, a typical Hollywood movie probably tells us more about popular attitudes than, say, a perusal of politically-correct legislation!
The "classical" civilisations may have called the Celts "barbarians" - but they used the same term (and probably made similar assumptions about), say, the sophisticated Chinese! Caesar et al. slaughtered most of the Celtic people and largely extinguished their culture in most of Europe - so of course the victors portray their victims as bellicose savages, deserving of extinction. But that is not the story told by the Celts themselves, nor by modern archaelogy... Moreover, it should be noted that the so-called "Dark Ages" in Europe correspond with a Golden Age in Gaelic culture, when Celtic Christian monasticism flourished and was fundamental in re-converting and re-educating pagan Western Europe. This was not a sudden reversal by a formerly brutish, uncultured society, but was a natural evolution built upon a thousand years of spiritual tradition.
Anyways, didn't mean to go on so long - was actually reading this thread coz I'm currently playing a Kensai-Mage for the first time, not coz I wanted to argue cultural differences between barbarians! But I don't have a lot to add to the main discussion - am only half-way through SoA in my first-ever dualling of a PC, so am no expert. Will just say -
1) Full Grand-Mastery*** is good fun even with an unexciting staff - can't wait to get some of the biggies! BTW, this is the "Darth Maul" approach, suggested a while ago by Sorry-I-forget-who; it tailors the 2 classes together v. nicely, except that one does have to "waste" a proficiency as a young mage to temporarily re-learn staff !
2) "No bracers" is a pain. I *love* the Robe of Vecna, but would base AC 5 ain't great...
3) Haven't been in this Forum for ages, so hello (again) everybody!
B.
* = really pedantic, but "berserker" is a particularly unsuitable term, since Celtic fanatics fought "sky-clad" (naked) without a scrap of hide of any beast!
** = short & dark-haired, rather than tall & fair (like eg. his charioteer).
It seems clear C. was at least partly descended from the pre-Celtic majority population, rather than the Celtic ruling class.
*** = with 2 proficiencies in 2-h weapon, of course!
Enough footnotes!
Wish I had a decent sig...