The kensai-mage versus berzerker-mage debate thread

Qwinn · Post by **Qwinn** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:34 pm

"it tailors the 2 classes together v. nicely, except that one does have to "waste" a proficiency as a young mage to temporarily re-learn staff !"

Actually, just for kicks I'm trying the following in my current game:

My berzerker got 5 proficiencies in Flail and 1 in two handed weapons. Dualled at level 13 to mage. Took one in quarterstaff at dualling. Did my level-ups as normal until level 5, but I haven't clicked on "Level Up" since I hit 40,000xp (I'm at about 1.2 mill now, berzerker levels will reactivate at 1.5 million). Why gimp myself as a 5th level mage for the entire time it takes to get over a million experience points? Because when my skills finally -do- reactivate, I'll have -two- proficiency slots (one from level 6 and one from 12 as a mage) that I can put into any proficiency usable as a fighter. I plan on putting both in quarterstaff so I'll have 3 proficiencies with the staff when I reactivate (and the 19-20 critical hit from the two-handed proficiency I got as a fighter). My points at 18 and 24 will go toward quarterstaff as well, so the final result will be 5 in flail and 5 in quarterstaff with 1 in two-handed weapons.

Of course, if you like the idea but you're not quite as masochist as I am, you can level up as normal until 11 and just go through levels 12 and 13 without levelling up, and thus at least save -that- proficiency point. But I really wanted to eventually get max proficiencies in two weapons and the improved criticals for one of 'em

Qwinn

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:11 pm

Well, I'd charge both a berserker and a kensai that have been dualed to mages with staffs. OK, thats the first step.

Now:

Armor, if you've passed the underdark and you're headed to the vampires compound, is pretty useless. Everything that can hit you will hit you anyway. So, my choice is the kensai. Why? because - even in a solo game - you'll need someone to tank and atack. With the kensai-mage using his spells to tank is easy and effective. It avoids, for example, the death of certain not so strong tanks, as Anomen and Valygar, even in the beggining of the game. So you need protection from spells - The Amulet of power gives you that. You need strenght and hit chances - you got a lot of bonuses from the kensai AND you may already have at least the Staff of Rynn +4. You may solo Kangaax, for crying out loud, using a simple scroll. And he will fall ASAP.

I mean, if I'm with a berserker mage, the only advantage I have is armor - and except for the robe of vecna, the mages armors are pretty useless.

my2 cents worth.

Snoon · Post by **Snoon** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:34 pm

Hmm... I didn't read anything about the berserker description that mentions religion or culture... doesn't it say that the character is merely in touch with the animalistic nature that is within us all? It does not come from any particular god. The ability for a berserker is called "enrage", not "frenzy". It sounds to me like he's just getting pissed off.

I have a theory about all of these references in religion to people suffering. They serve to incite the foolish common-folk into sacrificing themselves to serve the needs of their rulers. (*snip*, edited out bad example)

I have had my own berserker rages in real life, and I've never bitten shields, drank blood or speared myself to trees. It has always been due to anger or force of will. Nothing more. And what is this about having a "casting failure" while trying to become enraged? That has got to be one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. Since when does being hit serve to calm you down? If that doesn't cause you to become more angry, I don't know what will!

The reference to Celts being more like the BG2 Kensai than the japanese perhaps makes sense, as they did go into combat naked.

Kensai are supposed to be like Samurai? Didn't Samurai always wear wicker armour?

At any rate, I'm glad that the berserker/mage is working out well for Qwinn. I don't like character classes that promote refusal to use certain useful items. I think that the monk is an especially stupid character, to be fighting dragons and such without weapons or armour. Get real. If unarmed combat was this effective, instead of regulating mages in Athkatla, they would make it illegal to walk around unarmed.

Refusing to use certain items to aid you doesn't make you a better fighter, it just makes you an idiot.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:49 pm

I have a theory about all of these references in religion to people suffering. They serve to incite the foolish common-folk into sacrificing themselves to serve the needs of their rulers. It still happens today, with suicide bombings and such.

I would argue against this position, but this really isn't the right place for this discussion, anyway.

If you want to talk about it, by all means, start it up in SYM (Speak Your Mind), where both spam and serious conversational topics are welcome.

I have had my own berserker rages in real life, and I've never bitten shields, drank blood or speared myself to trees. It has always been due to anger or force of will. Nothing more. And what is this about having a "casting failure" while trying to become enraged? That has got to be one of the most stupid things I've ever heard.

Whoever said AD&D was based on anything remotely resembling reality? I've laughed as well at the alignment system since Gygax first devised it. What amazes me is the way so many kids raised on the stuff regard it as the ultimate truth for RPGs and any fantasy literature, as well as reflective of reality. Sad.

Back to subject. I've used a Kensai/Mage twice through the game, and enjoyed it. I like a character that requires strategy to deploy correctly, and since I don't use cheese, the K/M is an interesting professional choice with weaknesses as well as strengths. It's also a good pivot around which to base interesting parties; do you focus on the mage part, and add tanks, or the kensai part, and build up your magical strength? What if you just cast spells to make you near invulnerable in direct combat--whom do you put at the back of your line? Many possibilities.

Snoon · Post by **Snoon** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:34 pm

Point taken, and I apologize for adding to the off-topic discussion.

As for a dualled kensai/mage, how well do they tank in comparison to a level 17 or higher single-classed fighter-type character? I know that the HP bonuses fighters recieve trail off at level 9, but how about the THAC0?

KaaH · Post by **KaaH** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:27 am

long time read...

Now I can't help but give my 2 Cent

On topic Kensai/Mage vs. Berzerker/Mage

I think if you want one or the other depends on your favorite playing-style

Berzerker/Mage is a no-brainer; -like a missile with Image Recognition, log on target and forget. (This is not a bad thing, it's convenient)

Kensai/Mage is all abot looking after him/her (babysittin', at least in the beginning ). This route the character feels more close (for me; am I going psycho?).

either Dual vs. single class fighter

This is for me about diminishing returns

pure fighter very good 'til lvl 9, you will get this with the dual as well
lvl 9-13 good returns (namely 1/2 attack), a lot of people will miss this while playing a dual -I always dual at 13 for maximum meelee ability
after that as a fighter you just choose GWW, it's a great feat but can be simulated by melfs + haste + impr. haste or energie blades (+ they are ranged and hit like weapon +6)
so after lvl 13 the duals just give you more (spells)
BG2 hands out a lot of experience (handy to remove the xp cap by ToB or other means) so for me dualing is the way to go.

Snoon · Post by **Snoon** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:25 pm

No doubt about it, dualing is the way to go for maximum gains, at least in SoA, as the EXP cap makes it so that you can only achieve a certain number of levels overall, and with dualing, you can take a kit in your first class. I only have a problem with dualing for role-playing reasons, as I would hate to think that I could no longer improve upon the abilities of my first class, once I started another. Sensible power gaming choice, if you're only looking as far as the end of the game, but if it was my entire life I was thinking about, I'd want to be able to always improve upon all of my abilities, hence a multiclass is more attractive to me. But I'm a human, and we're too stupid to develop in 2 classes at once, so I guess I am rather stuck.

Boris · Post by **Boris** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:08 pm

Re Profs

[QUOTE=Qwinn]My berzerker got 5 proficiencies in Flail and 1 in two handed weapons. ... but I haven't clicked on "Level Up" since I hit 40,000xp (I'm at about 1.2 mill now... Qwinn[/QUOTE]

Hmmm... Interesting stuff...

1) Didn't know ye could do that - skip the levelling, so as to avoid single-class restrictions. Wonder if there are other applications...?

2) Why did you have 2-h. weapons with flail? Are you playing some Mod/whatever that has Mauls?

3) This is new to me, so there may well be a better way (without skipping level-ups), but what I did was -
Dualled at 9, with 5 Profs on Staff & 2 on 2-h W. So took Dagger as a Mage - v. handy (I can shoot!) except don't have a magic weapon! Got 2nd Mage Prof. shortly before re-Kensai-ing & tried Sling (coz can't have double Profs as Mage-only & was due Staff anyway)... But (of course!) can't use missiles as a Kensai, so lost it... Re-loaded in frustration & "wasted" prof on Staff, which disappears when K. again - no 6 profs, alas!

If I did it again, I'd pro'lly take Staff for 1st Mage prof, so as to be able to use my old magic weapon from the start, then dagger. But that still wastes one...
Any better ideas? Moreover, if dualling at 13*, ye'd lose *two* whole profs...

BTW, I had presumed the whole idea of "Darth Maul" was coz one couldn't use non-Mage weapons after switching - but that is evidently not the case.
Am surprised to realise that specialising from the start is theoretically *less* efficient! But it avoids putting profs into skills which may later be neglected and allows the use of really powerful weapons (eg. Staff of Magi - slurp!) which are otherwise under-used by non-specialists.
BTW, BTW, Staff may only do 1-6 compared to, say, 3-18 for 2-h Swd, but it's the "extras" that really matter. Just being a 2-handed weapon is the main thing - those frequent Criticals are just gorgeous & by the Gods you're fast!

B.

* = which I think I'd go for, since I always go the full ToB & expect a lvl 9 fighter will look a bit lame by the end. But it looks to be hard work getting K-again in SoA & this *is* supposed to be *fun*...!

Qwinn · Post by **Qwinn** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:58 pm

"2) Why did you have 2-h. weapons with flail? Are you playing some Mod/whatever that has Mauls?"

No, the slot in 2-h weapons was just looking ahead for use with the quarterstaff proficiencies once I got 'em.

Oh, something else I realized today - I undercounted by two proficiencies in my earlier rundown (you have 8 total slots as a 13 fighter, not 6). Before dualling, in addition to the 5 flail and 1 2-hand, I also put two points into two weapon style, so that I would have the option of being able to put any weapon in my offhand without affecting the THACO of the primary hand (so, for example, I could put Kurdane (sp?) in the offhand and thus get an extra attack with my primary, or Crom Faeyr for the STR bonus, etc). BTW, if for whatever reason you lean towards dual wielding -and- using the same weapon type in both hands so that you actually have a chance to hit with that 2nd weapon, I can't say enough good things about the Defender of Easthaven (flail available from add-on merchant in the Copper Coronet)) as a great 2nd flail to use with the Flail of Ages.

Anyways, by the end of TOB, my proficiencies on my berzerker-mage will be:

5 slots flail
2 slots 2-weapon style
5 slots quarterstaff
1 slot 2-hand weapon style

Qwinn

Snoon · Post by **Snoon** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:41 am

And if you have no other party members who will use the throwing dagger +3 firetooth, you could take a proficiency and use that as a ranged weapon also, I suppose?

Being able to go above specialization is yet another advantage a dual-classed fighter/mage has over a multiclassed one. I hate the fact that a multiclassed fighter can't go higher than 2 proficiency points in a weapon. Makes them seem less like fighters, doesn't it?

Boris · Post by **Boris** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:36 pm

Rooting around in old threads...

fable wrote:Whoever said AD&D was based on anything remotely resembling reality?

Er, Gary Gygax. The whole theme of AD&D (1st Ed.) was a "realistic" aproach to Fantasy Gaming. It may seem an oxymoron, but not to the initiated...

Sorry - "initiated" is a terrible cop-out & I should really try harder, but it's late at night & I'm v. tired & don't think I'm fit to type out treatises on the Evolution of Fantasy, the Evolution of Fantasy Gaming or the Necessity of Coherence in a Fantasy World. Maybe some other time, since the posters on this Forum are so obviously clever, patient & eager to discuss serious ideas...

Meantime, I'm gonna try out some of those smilies available - am afraid it's another indulgence I've picked-up since last here...

B.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:47 pm

Wow, what a bump!

Getting back to the original topic:

The Berserker>Mage is better than the Kensai>Mage. Berserkers can use great shields (dualweilding is highly overrated), and their Rage ability will save their skin more than anything.

If you have ToB installed, the right level to dual at is 13.

If you have ToB installed, you're better off with a Fighter/Mage or Fighter/Illusionist multiclass anyway.