Anarch ending theory *Spoilers*

Dominic Brujah · Post by **Dominic Brujah** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:27 am

So let me get this straight...

You leave LaCroix to open the sarcophagus and it's loaded with c4, courtesy of Jack. How was the player manipulated? And who was originally in the sarcophagus? Jack, Cain or the dead dude at the end?

My theory: So knowing you would join them, the anarchs stood up for you in the intro. You owe them a favor so you get rid of the plaguebearers. All the while being sucked into the anarch cause, influenced by Jack and Rodriguez. They get you to "spy" on LaCroix, but of course they already had all this planned out...

The Anarchs also already knew that LaCroix would send you on a wild goose chase to open the sarcophagus SOOOOO.....

.... before the sarcophagus even arrived in LA, they had wittingly already replaced the body with the explosives and somehow got the key to fall into Kuei-Jin hands. Effectively making you get rid of the Kuei-Jin and LaCroix. BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!: Anarch free state of L.A.

Am I correct in this?

Dominic Brujah · Post by **Dominic Brujah** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:29 am

P.s:

Who is Jack? Antedeluvian or elder? I have a sneaky suspicion he's Troile for some reason.

Who Cares · Post by **Who Cares** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:40 am

Simpler explanation.
Jack is fairly strong but not strong enough to get rid of La Croix directly, he hates the guy. Someone approaches him with a way to get rid of him if Jack cooperates. This someone has also been the one who mailed the location of the coffin to Ingvar Johansen.
Jack either joins up with the Anarchs just in case they get to the coffin first or is already a member of the Anarchs.

Jack gets to the ship before anyone knows it's close to LA, due to intel provided by the person who is manipulating him. Wipes out the crew, dumps corpses in the ocean. Leaves the prints on the side of the coffin after opening it to replace the mummy of Messerach with C4. Takes off with the key. Hands the key to the kuei-Jijn.

He gets a lucky break since the player gets on the scene, a complete blank slate if it comes to the politics played. He gets on your good side by helping you out with the basics.

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:05 pm

nah - wrong!

Pretty sure that the Anarch top-dude is Nines, not Jack according to the dialogue options about him being the 'Prince' of the anarchs.

also - I think that if you chat with Jack, he isn't anything like old enough to be Antediluvian - you are talking 8,000 years ago.

all the factions are conspiring to destroy the Camarilla - but LaCroix thinks he can join forces with the foreign-spirits (as I believe Chinese factions name for themselves could translate to)
"djinn" is a similar word to "demon" btw - although demon comes from the Greek from outward form/showing/manifestation - as in "demonstration". "gwai-lo" I recall is a Chinese word for foreigners. translating from kanji script/ideograms can allow words to be properly spelt in more than one way e.g. kwai/gwai - maybe somebody with a knowledge of Chinese can correct me/improve my explanation.

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:34 pm

[QUOTE=Dominic Brujah]Who is Jack? Antedeluvian or elder? I have a sneaky suspicion he's Troile for some reason.[/QUOTE]

Troile is or was a woman....
And if she would have been interested, she wouldn't have needed any help at all. Even though she isn't the original Brujah Anteliduvian, she has at least discipline ratings of 10 in Presence, Celerity and Potence, and probably 9's in Dominate, Auspex and some other disciplines. The whole of LA would obey her wishes and sit in awe of her beauty and intellect.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:31 pm

Maybe I can give you a helping hand.

WARNING: The World Health Organisation warns that facts my SPOIL your game.

Jack is an always has been a well known anarch. Since be was first embraced way back in the hay-day when he was a priate, he has always been obssesed with the idea of breaking the rules and sticking it to the big guy. He's voilent, he's a bit of a prankster, but he isn't the kind of guy who makes huge plans of world shattering magnitude.
For that matter, NONE of the Anarch movment have ever really been known for their mssive planning and well thought out stratergy... Maybe with the exception of Muldivus of Chicago, but she was being used by the Prince of Gary, so thats another story entierly.
Anarchs are known for only a handful of things.. And most of those things are their passion, their drive and their charisma. Like many rebels of the modern times, they LOVE to deride the system, scream about opression and suck people into their glourious cause.. But as for actual answers or solutions to the problems they scream about? Well they come up a little short.
Elders, on the other hand, are well known for planning things out 300 years in advance. When your 1472 years old, a 50 year waiting time really isn't such a big deal. If, as it seems the developers want us to think, the dude working with Jack was Caine, then a thousand year old body bag is an easy thing to plan out the retrevial of... However, somethign modern like packing it with C4 is more the kinda of idea an Anarch would have.. The Cammerilla less likley to want to destory an asset like the Venture building and all the mortals inside.
Now, I'm not saying who put what in where, how who got the what into the when, or why the when is outside the what-now... But suffice to say, these details might help you.. Refine your theory a little more.

Troile: Yes, step number one, she is a she... However, when it comes to vampries of acient and godly power, is she wanted to be a he tonight, who the heck are we to say no? And lets face it, with acess to things like Obfuscate 10 if she wanted to learn it, she can be a he as long as she wants and nobody will remember any the wiser... History books saying otherwise woul be re-written or lost almost instantly.
However! That being said, upon waking up from her thousands of years of slumber, chances are Torile would be rampaging across LA as an unstopable monster of hunger rather then plotting and planning C4 explosions.. In fact, upon the mention of C4 she may pluck off your head to avoid looking like she doesn't know what C4 is. Ouchie, touchy a little? Well she can afford to be, and her tainted Brujah blood means her temper is a little.... Short fused.
Also, shes said to be more then a little dead... While this rumor might be a little exagerated, last time she was actualy seen she was (acording to the Ventrue) cradling her Baali lover in her arms as they drank each other in a demonic rite, sinking into the earth forever more (or acroding to the Brujah) wrestling with her Baali enemy and being dragged into the erath to make sure the conflict caused no more destruction... It's up to you who you belive. However history is written by the victors, and the Ventrue came out on top, so for now, lets say shes naughty.
Then there is another problem. As Lucita said, if the Brujah antedeluvian wants LA, she says "I want LA" and LA says "Yes miss!!". If she wants a prince dead, she rolls over in her grave and a hundred Brujah respond without knowladge to her summons... If she wants everyone to dance like a chicken... Well bring out the feathers boys! We got some turkey trotting to do! Yehaw!
Not to mention that, if Torile IS awake and wandering around, then the acient Jyhad has entered it's final moves and all the other Antedeluvians should be awake as well... Which means you'd see a lot more newspapers laying around with headlines like "The New York Times extends warm welcome to wicked vampire overlords" and "Texas pushed into the ocean for not preparing blood feast" and maybe even "Florida Governer swallowed whole by angry Torreador. Our new lord and master is quoted as having said "He wont be back THIS time". "

I'm done!

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:55 pm

Lol...loved the last statements...

Considering that the Tzimisce Antediluvian sleeps beneath New York and has Sabbat and Camarilla alike dancing to it's tunes, it wouldn't be a nice thing for LA to have the same going on with Troile - then, you never know if these earthquakes in California aren't something else......

But as far as I know Troile should be resting beneath the ruins of her beloved Carthage.....

The interesting thing is that Bloodlines is a bit late considering that Whitewolf has let Gehenna happen last year allready. Funny thing is that Beckett and Caine have been in LA during those events. So "Bloodlines" might have been a little sitenote in the "Historybooks"....

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:30 pm

I don't recall anyone blowing up most of LA as I seem to recall doing in bloodlines, nor do I remember a Prince LaCroix... Let alone and Antedeluvian sighting, thou I spose if there was one, nobody would have mentoined it really... Keep it to themselves and what not.

That being said, perhapse the devlopers are like myself, and were nearly physicaly ill at reading the rubbish that was Time Of Judgment. Allow me, if I may:

Vampires, cunning masters of the night, capable of things no human could ever even dream of and rulers of the earth battle each other nightly in a game so subtle that few even know they are playing it. Mortal against mortal, ghoul against ghoul, childe against childe, elder against elder, clan against clan, blood against blood, they dance on the invisable strings of creatures known as The Antedeluvians... Monsters with an intelligence that is beyond human capacity, and cunning more then any animal, matched perhapse only by God himself... These first vampires use their children against each other in an acient war of chess, battling to be the last one left standing.. They cultivate great mortal herds and inflence to fule their silent war so deadly and secret that the greatest players in it are blind to it's moves and only the ripples of victory or failure are known when the dust settles.. And where is the battle ground for this war? Political debates, back streets rife with crime, skyscrapers and business, all battling with one another to be the strongest holder of power in a city.
DING DING DING DING DING!!
Oh dear, the antedeluvians alarm clock went off, now we will see the REAL masters of the Jyhad in action.. With their wits honed sharper then a Katana! They wi... Oh wait.. Wait.. No.. They are pretty much just kicking each other.. Oh look, Tremere bopped Torreador over the head with a car, HA HA HA HA! Uh oh, Brujah heard Tzimsce laughing, now they are having thumb wrestling match...
Thats right, the most cunning beasts of the night, the dark lords of the earth... Pretty much just wake up and bash each other up. Look at them go... *yawn* So dramatic, so unforseen.. So... What?!

Talley_theHound · Post by **Talley_theHound** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:33 pm

Just a note,

I went back to the first Time of Judgment book 1, most all of the events in Bloodlines are mentioned, check page 43, it mentions LaCroix, the Cathayans(Qu-Jin), Rodriguez's on page 45. And what happened to Smiling Jack the Anarch, and the thin bloods are in the book to. Anyone who would like to know what probably went on after Bloodline’s should take a look at the book.

Also anybody else catch Beckett’s reference to Chicago, The year of the Scarab series.

And one last, the taxi driver, not Cain. Well maybe, Kapaneus did say “sending his spirit out to observe and occasionally speak to others, to those few with eyes to see him in that form.” Page 340 ToJ by Ari Marmell. So the cab driver may have been possessed by Cain.

Talley_theHound · Post by **Talley_theHound** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:49 pm

I apologize,

One more thing, I give all the Crew at TROIKA an A+++ for all the background continuity excellence, in keeping Bloodlines as close to true to the OWOD fiction.

To many times back-story and continuity are pitched out so corners can be cut or the writer has absolutely no idea what they are writing about, for example the TV series Kindred the Embraced

(lets hope its sire had its head removed).

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:39 pm

Hey Talley, we have the same thoughts here....lol ( probably never happened before in our centuries old dispute ).

The game is awesome, it's conform with the offical Whitewolf theme and it's still understandable for people who never played or read Vampire: The Masquerade before.

Caine or "Kapaneus" could have easily influenced everyone in the storyline, that he stood back for most of the time and just let things happen shows how much he is still a human and a father to us all.

Judging from the novel, I would say he never used a Path of Enlightment like most of the Sabbat or older Cainites ( instead of humanity ). He has at least an humanity rating of 7 ( which would be normal for a regular human ).

Talley_theHound · Post by **Talley_theHound** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:48 pm

A conclusion theory I have come up with, to stay within the topic of this thread and with what info has been provided, and basing it more off of the novels (having read about 98% of them, but never have played the PnP but have a number of V:TM source books).

Is that, 1: Cain possessed the cab driver, being the 1st , the curse did not drive him insane that it did to his grand-childer aka The Antediluvians. A good way to think is that each generation childe is half as powerful as its sire, The Antediluvians would have potential of 25% to Cain’s 100%. Being a 10th generation in the game, your character would have a potential of .1953125% to Cain’s 100%, that is less than 2/10ths of 1%. Kind of fits in with a way a lot of 4th gens are portrayed in the books, Mithras, Alexander, and even Gratiano who’s diablerie of Lasombra makes even the Sabbat give a wide berth to.

2: That Cain/cabbie touched Jack (labeled in ToJ1 as “former anarch leader turned prophet of the coming Gehenna” page 110) and together (the same style as with Beckett in ToJ1) tracked down the occupant of the Sarcophagus, maybe not a Kindred but a Bane Mummy?,

after it escaped from the ship. Then later planted the C4 to cover any evidence or any one dumb enough to open it.

Note: Unlike Cain’s descendants who have tenet of dominating and controlling others, Cain will advise/guide and show different paths to your choices, but lets you keep your own free-will and any consequences of your choices.

Please remember, this is just my conclusion/opinion, form your own or even make one up. It’s just a game and fiction. In the end JUST HAVE FUN

. Nuff said, now I go into torpor (work)

.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:36 pm

Gah, the Time Of Judgment books were far and wide the worst things White Wolf have ever published, back tracking and walking all over themselves all the way, full of contradictions and just the most mundane, drab stuff I've evr laied eyes on. However, that being said, it IS the offical story so I should have considered it when saying I've never read about things happening in bloodlines. My bad. I'll make a vow to read all the way throught that book one day without losing my lunch.

As far as Caine being a father to all Vampires, the time of judgment suggests that God wiped out all Vampires because Caine was refusing to take responsability for them and guide them. When Ravnos awoke, it's sorta hinted at that God was waiting for Caine to say "Well this is my mistake, I'll stop him and set him on the right path"... And when his response was to, instead, roll over and go back to sleep, God got a little miffed and decided to, oh, I don't know, END ALL LIFE?!?! (warning, your diety having a hissy fit may be terminal, see your Doctor)
In other news, I miss Mithras.
In other OTHER news, yes, for those who don't know, a little while ago there was a "Kindred: The Embraced" tv series, which left most people who play the game or read the books going "What am I watching? I recognise some of the words being used, but it's like a Russian man is reading me a Mc Donalds menu.. I hear the word Big Mac and pipe up, but then it's all jibberish"
I thought there was one section in the many different time of judgment endings in which Caine WAS just wandering around chatting it up with Neonates and such. "Hi, I'm Caine, father of murder and first vampire.. Is that a coke? Can I have one??"

Talley_theHound · Post by **Talley_theHound** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:23 pm

Pennypincher, I know that feeling you have about ToJ1, not the book but how you feel, I have read some pretty bad duds from authors I like. Reading is for enjoyment, if you don’t get into it, try something different. Back to ToJ1, the references to Bloodlines are a little buried and you would miss them if you haven’t played the PC game. I had not noticed them until skimming back through looking for different info for some postings. My theory is that Bloodline has been in the works for a while, when they wrote/devised the scenario/story, with White Wolf it was able to integrate into the official history, which is a major bonus to the game!

Also, I have not read ToJ2+3, not having gotten into Werewolf or Mage at all. Anybody know if there may be links to BL. Like the incident in “Griffith Park”?

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:17 pm

Talley...I read the Werewolf one and started with the Mage ( didn't read it to the end though ), no Vampire related events. I think the whole Gehenna "affair" was just to easy and to fast. They could have written a whole series about it, like they did with the Clan Novels ( which I loved, reading about myself is allways fun...lol ).

But now it's to late, and we are stuck with it....But I love the game ( despite some of the bugs ), I hope there will be some add-ons, that would be cool.

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:31 am

The Game?

I have never heard of the references outside the game - and this is the computer game forum, so if you would explain the back-drop for us gamers that might be helpful - otherwise it sounds like something for email between you or should be labelled 'off-topic' - just so the non-Illuminati realise.

I know that sounds a bit 'sniffy' and I don't want a flame-war about it, but I got really confused until I realised that you were discussing aspects of the milieu well outside the game.

It confused me, so I expect it could confuse others.

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:34 am

Sorry....

We somehow got into a discussion about how the computer game fits into the Pen and Paper RPG storyline....

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:59 pm

Yeah look your prolly right. If anyone wants a more detailed look into something to do with White Wolf's game I'm sure you can either Private message one of us (assuming the hound and the lasombra don't mind) or start a thread about it... Knowing us gammers we could prolly yack with you for hours about it without really saying anything of value. Sorry for clogging up the thread.

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:26 pm

Lol....yeah..."the Lasombra" ( aka me..lol ) doesn't mind a PM or answering questions about the Vampire: The Masquerade storyline. I have most Whitewolf Vampire products at home.

And yes...it could go on for hours, days or weeks....

Talley_theHound · Post by **Talley_theHound** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:32 am

“What! Hold on now, I am also Lasombra. You should not upset a Templar this early in the Game!”

1. AreEn’T nOtHiNg BuT a HoUnD dOg
2. Yes Sir Mr. Archon Sir. OOPS!
3. I think somebody forgot to tell you, your not in the game. Sorry Pops.

And now for reality. I would be more than open to any questions about how Bloodlines or anything else about Vampire:The Masquerade. If I do not have the answer, I am sure we can find someone that does.

I also decided to start a new thread for people maybe wanting some info on this.

Bloodlines PC game in V:TM fiction

GameBanshee Forums

Anarch ending theory Spoilers

Anarch ending theory Spoilers