Aproach on reincarnation (spam only on topic, no flaming plz)

[Luis Antonio]

I was reading a Faq abour Witchcraft this weekend, and as a fan of science this particular thing is very interesting:

A friend of mine once described reincarnation in a scientific sense. We have energy in the atoms that make up our bodies. When you get a static shock you can see that energy as electricity, for example. So there are all these little electric sparks going on in your body because electrons are always in motion. Well, according to the Law of Conservation of Energy, "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change in form." So where does this energy go when you die? I think of that as the soul. It transfers back into the form of a living creature, or reincarnation. There was more to my friend's theory, but basically the gist was that every time you are reborn, your energy becomes more and more pure until finally you can "become one with the universe" in the form of pure energy (The light one sees in a Near-Death Experience could be this energy/electricity). This, to those who believe in Heaven and Hell, is your final resting place.

Well, I would like to know what you guys think of it. I'll post my opinion later on.

[CM]

So physical energy is just another form of your soul? If there is reincarnation there must be some power which decides what you did was right or wrong and thus decides what form you take - ie lower or higher being.

[jopperm2]

It stays right were it was in the atoms until those atomes are made into something else like dirt. Then then the dirt has the electrions.

Edit: I just reread that and it sounded a little harsh, I didn't mean to imply that reincarnation was bunk, just the electron thing.

[dragon wench]

This is actually something I have long believed. To add to that, who here has been present when somebody is dying?

I have.. The point between the person's eyes becomes extremely hot as though all the energy within their body is gathering force, ready to release itself upon death. And you can quite literally feel the moment of that release, almost like an electric shock but far more intense and powerful. It is like nothing I have ever experienced before.

To take the theory a bit further. My own take is that the soul, or the energy, however you want to describe it can fragment and thus the different atoms or particles are reborn in several living creatures. And, I feel that sometimes, on those occasions when we connect deeply with another person, or experience an extremely strong attraction, for reasons that do not seem readily apparent, it is because we have encountered a missing part of the "soul" that resides within us. I think many of us have probably met people that we feel we have known forever, this is how I rationalise such occasions.

[Magrus]

I have my own definate outlook on reincarnation, which ties into my religious beliefs. I don't think it's at all necessary to go into that, so I won't.

There was more to my friend's theory, but basically the gist was that every time you are reborn, your energy becomes more and more pure until finally you can "become one with the universe" in the form of pure energy (The light one sees in a Near-Death Experience could be this energy/electricity). This, to those who believe in Heaven and Hell, is your final resting place.

I like the theory, it goes along with my views, just based on different reasons. The above selection though, isn't something I agree with at all. I can see the reasoning behind all the electrical impulses in your body, which make your nervous system and brain and such run being energy, and that energy sort of ascending and going somewhere else where you die based on that theory. This is because it fits with my views of the soul simply moving on once the physical form dies, like the body here is a vehicle or avatar for the soul and it goes elsewhere and assumes a new one, and new life. Whether it is here on earth or a different plane, well that gets beyond that theory really.

Which leads to the "your energy becomes more and more pure until you can become one with the universe" phrase. I disagree with this for personal reasons. I don't believe in any "final resting place" as this disregards the whole reincarnation thing. Reincarnation is you die, move on to a new, different life, and repeat. A "final resting place", to me is either an ascension or descent of the soul to a different plane, the end. No cycle, no ongoing thing. That's something different in my mind.

[moltovir]

I don't tend to believe in spiritual things (I'm one of those annoying persons who only believes things if they have experienced them themselves), so my answer will be rather... earthly. In my opinion, when you die, any energy in your body is consumed by other organisms, like fungi or insects, so the potential energy is transferred from a living organism to another one. Any electric energy undergoes the same effect as lightning: it disappears into the ground, perhaps changing from eletrical to warmth, or transferred to other organisms. To transfer a soul from one body to another, all the energy that resides in our body should stay together and be placed into a living thing that already has energy of its own, which is in my opinion close to impossible.

[Moonbiter]

A lot of people has based their, for lack of a better word, on "pop" culture regarding the afterlife on those very same premises. Hell, I might as well admit that for a while I myself was a long-haired metaler who said "energy can't go away, it just has to change form!" Now, I'm probably gonna open up a major can of worms here, but today, at my age, and having seen what I've seen, I'm a complete and true beleiver in the supposed "supernatural." This has nothing to do with my own mortality. I've seen and done enough for at least five people, so my concern is not when I go, it's how I go. Pompous as heck am I, but that's actually the way it is. So do I beleive in the afterlife? Well Louis, that's a matter of religion and the way you figure life is gonna be. But seeing myself in the mirror, and having almost touched the things that I have, YEAH! I truly beleive that if I kick the bucket with some seriously unfulfilled task in life, I won't stand still untill it's been completed. Then you have to figure out for yourself if you want another go at it or if you want oblivion. Who wants to live forever?

[jopperm2]

I have pretty much always believed in some form of reincarnation, but I don't believe it has anything to do with energy physically present in the body.

I haven't been near any people when they died, many animals, but no people. I have been with a lot of people near death though. Terrible experiences. That't interesting what you experienced DW. I wonder if anyone else has witnessed the same.

[Chanak]

Interesting, @DW. I've always felt that the supernatural is perfectly natural, and is a part of the universe(s). I sometimes think of existence as a spectrum of emanations. Our present identities and personalities are the result of the complex interaction of the spectrum of forces, focused on the here and now. When death occurs the focus in the here and now fragments, the energy continuing on a perpetual journey that I envision as a cycle. Cycles seem to be the rule of the universe, reflected in virtually every aspect of existence. Electricity cycles in frequency; water transforms into a gas, then a solid, in a never ending cycle of precipitation; an herbivore consumes alfalfa, excretes waste, which returns to the soil and is used by the same plant to create more alfalfa in the food chain (a cycle really); insects go through a very visible life cycle, where depending on the species they begin in an egg, grow into a larva, pupate, then emerge as an adult...who then lays more eggs. Some cycles are very subtle and seem to spring from other cycles...such as how Redwood trees (as well as Sequoia trees) perpetuate themselves. Their life cycle requires fire. It is interesting to note that redwood bark is exceedingly thick and flame retardant. When fires sweep through redwood forests, the fire causes the protective outer shell of their germ (seed) to crack open, enabling the germ within to take root, creating a sapling.

Reincarnation as a cycle is my earnest belief. Some of the details involved in it - such as the concept of karma - are outside of my basic thoughts. Perhaps that is also a factor, an interplay of the spectrum just like others, which are more visible to our eyes and senses. It's my feeling that every action engenders some sort of reaction in the universe, like ripples in a pond.

[Moonbiter]

I have to abase myself, and admit that I did not read The Wench's post before I replied. That's an unusual stinker, so I'm deeply sorry. I hope you will forgive me.

I would like, in this thread, to quote "Batty" the Replicant, as so faboulousluy portrayed by Rutger Hauer in Blade Runner who comes to terms with his 4 year life span:

"I've seen things...

seen things you little people
wouldn't believe... Attack ships
on fire off the shoulder of Orion
bright as magnesium... I rode on
the back decks of a blinker and
watched c-beams glitter in the dark
near the Tanhäuser Gate.

all those moments... they'll be gone....

Time to die................................"

And then he lets that pigeon go in the rain, and I've seen that movie a hundred times, and I break up in tears every time, because it's so FINAL! There's no religious aftertones or promises of days to come... quite simply. that's it.

[Magrus]

The supernatural is something I've always been drawn to, I've never witnessed someone die, but I've been around when it's happened, there is a definate feeling even if you weren't aware of it occuring until it happened.

For example, when I was younger, I was in the backyard of my fathers house he had moved into after my parents split up, which was in a bad neighborhood. I was arguing with one of the neighbors who I had just met (the boy thought it a good idea to throw things at my brother and call him names), when all of the sudden, my father runs out the back door and tells us to stay in the backyard no matter what and not to move. He ran back inside, and I heard a gunshot, but nothing else. I knew someone had gotten killed though, I couldn't explain anything, I just felt it like a chill. About twenty minutes later my father came back and told me there was nothing to worry about and I went up to the road and sure enough, there was the chalk outline of a man in front of our driveway.

I knew my great grandmother died minutes before my mother got the phone call she had passed on too.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]My own take is that the soul, or the energy, however you want to describe it can fragment and thus the different atoms or particles are reborn in several living creatures. And, I feel that sometimes, on those occasions when we connect deeply with another person, or experience an extremely strong attraction, for reasons that do not seem readily apparent, it is because we have encountered a missing part of the "soul" that resides within us. I think many of us have probably met people that we feel we have known forever, this is how I rationalise such occasions.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with this as well. It's my belief that those strong attractions with others with that feeling you have known them forever would be that you've shared a past life with said person. Your soul's have met before in another time and place and you recognize this. I've encountered quite a few situations like this, and thats my firm belief based on certain situations I've dealt with, including sharing dreams and memories we both had long before having first bumped into each other in this life.

[QUOTE=jopperm2]I have pretty much always believed in some form of reincarnation, but I don't believe it has anything to do with energy physically present in the body.[/QUOTE]

My sentiments exactly, although as I stated before, I could see how that could be assumed by peopleas a logical explination.

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=Moonbiter]I have to abase myself, and admit that I did not read The Wench's post before I replied. That's an unusual stinker, so I'm deeply sorry. I hope you will forgive me.

I would like, in this thread, to quote "Batty" the Replicant, as so faboulousluy portrayed by Rutger Hauer in Blade Runner who comes to terms with his 4 year life span:

"I've seen things...

seen things you little people
wouldn't believe... Attack ships
on fire off the shoulder of Orion
bright as magnesium... I rode on
the back decks of a blinker and
watched c-beams glitter in the dark
near the Tanhäuser Gate.

all those moments... they'll be gone....

Time to die................................"

And then he lets that pigeon go in the rain, and I've seen that movie a hundred times, and I break up in tears every time, because it's so FINAL! There's no religious aftertones or promises of days to come... quite simply. that's it.[/QUOTE]

No need to apologise, it isn't always easy to keep track of posts in fast-moving threads

That part of Blade Runner always gets me as well. The entire movie does... but yes.. that scene is one of the most profoundly moving in cinema history IMO.

[Chanak]

@Moonbiter: Blade Runner is a favorite of mine. I thought Rutger Hauer did a great job as Roy the Replicant. It's a thought-provoking movie. And yeah, I admit that the scene of Roy's death affected me as well.

[fable]

I am a witch, as I'm mentioned before--initiated in 1978, and still kicking...!--but the idea that conservation of matter somehow contributes proof to reincarnation I find laughable. Reincarnation is like so much else in my religion: it is a non-rational belief, and no evidence can be provided of it. You either believe it, or you don't, based entirely on subjective criteria.

Myself, I think reincarnation is certainly possible, but I'd like to know why a person would necessarily reincarnate "forward" in time, if noumenal existence is outside time? And why would incarnation necessarily happen in one world, if we all like to speculate that life could occur anywhere? And why should reincarnation happen to everybody? Why not just for a few people who are drawn to it? In short, there's little reason to comment upon reincarnation. It either happens, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, there are many other possibilities after death, all of them interesting and worth checking out.

What's especially cause for embarassment in the Craft is the number of my fellow witches who speak with pride about having been incarnated as witches in Salem or priests in Egypt many years ago. One would think Salem had as many witches, and Egypt as many priests, as there were genuine Holy Crosses on which Jesus died to hawk to fools in the Middle Ages. All too much of this smells of psychological compensation: people seeking self-importance in dreams, that society otherwise denies them.

[Moonbiter]

The master of Italian Grape Saturday Night Posting strikes again.....

[Chanak]

@fable: Hey! I have memories of being a toaster in a 1950's diner.

Seriously, I base my own ideas about re-upping on the cyclic nature of existence. Things change form. In fact, change seems to be the only constant. As far as other concepts go...blah. Who says time even exists anyway? And that this universe we perceive is the only one? I can conceptualize it as a band of frequencies, or interlocking spheres. Some scientists think there are an unlimited amount of "universes." Someone envisioned going to the Moon in a baloon, and even wrote a book about it. Laughable at the time, and the stuff of dreams and harrumphing hogwash and all that. It eventually took place though...unless you think the Moon landing in 1969 was staged in a Hollywood basement by Richard M. Nixon.

[fable]

[QUOTE=Moonbiter]The master of Italian Grape Saturday Night Posting strikes again..... [/QUOTE]

What is this supposed to mean? Are you suggesting that I'm drunk if I have religious views that don't match your own? Excuse me for having thought for myself more than a few times over the last 53 years, challenging what I'm told I must believe, and coming up with other answers that satisfy me--even if, horror of horrors, they don't satisfy you.

[QUOTE=Chanak]I base my own ideas about re-upping on the cyclic nature of existence. Things change form. In fact, change seems to be the only constant. As far as other concepts go...blah. Who says time even exists anyway?[/QUOTE]

Or at least, that the pereption of time is flawed, both by cultural attitudes and the subjectivity of those who "experience" time. My wife, ever logical, tells me that time is a constant, because it is measurable. This only means it can be measured as a constant; its speed can still be experienced as a variable, depending upon any number of conditions. And then there are those premonitions of events which turn out to be correct, in which time jumps its tracks. For centuries, everybody knew that air was a simple, universal substance made up of aether (later, philogisten). Then, later, with study, we realized that what we called air was comprised of at least three main substances and a host of important trace substances, and that it only held true for the face of this planet and nowhere else. I have to wonder whether the simplicity with which we accept the constant, forward passage of time isn't due to our primitive understanding of it.

[InfiniteNature]

I think that even if this universe is the only universe, then you still have eternity or so for something to happen. Therefore even improbable events will happen, given a indefinite amount of time (whatever time means across such spans of whatever anyway), and even improbable events such as the repeating of people, or even the repeating of the exact same people, or alternatively the creation of the same people but in different lives.

It requires no electrical fields just the patience to wait, a very very very long time.

Or if there are a infinite span of universes, improbable events also happen but spread out across the universes.

And as to your individual identity who is to say that even the concepts of now and then have any meaning in terms of eternity and infinity, so perhaps you die and a billion billion billion billlion years later you wake up in some other life. In the end you wouldn't really notice the difference anyway, it would be as if you died and woke up.

I have a problem with the whole physical method of reincarnation, I mean the only way I could see it happen is through various quantum mechanical methods, and these would involve linkages to past events, and even then the total memory might not be preserved but fragmented among many various yous. That and while I might believe in a soul as something that defines your identity I do not think there is some quasimystical force bringing back people, or if there is it doesn't happen that often or as well as people might like.

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=Moonbiter]The master of Italian Grape Saturday Night Posting strikes again..... [/QUOTE]

I'm not completely sure what you mean about this, but I know you are familiar with our forum rule #1, right?

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[Brynn]

[QUOTE=moltovir]I don't tend to believe in spiritual things (I'm one of those annoying persons who only believes things if they have experienced them themselves), so my answer will be rather... earthly. In my opinion, when you die, any energy in your body is consumed by other organisms, like fungi or insects, so the potential energy is transferred from a living organism to another one. [/QUOTE]

Well, that's just the materia... Where's the energy that made it all move?