Gameplay ethics

Parak · Post by **Parak** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 6:55 pm

Being relatively new to the community, I wanted to raise a question about gameplay ethics, namely, what is considered normal, or cheesy/cheating. Coming from a roguelike community (where any sorts of deviation from game design are extremely frowned upon) I became sort of stuck on the "fair play" mentality.

Often, I find myself trying to do some tactic suggested here, or elsewhere, and I find myself critisizing both it and myself, for using a gameplay "loophole".

So more to the point: In the broad sense of things, what do people consider fair gameplay tactics, or frownable upon (if such a thing exists). For that matter, same thing about patches/tweaks. Which are ok, and which alter gameplay towards cheating?

Or, you can tell me that I'm a moron and should stfu

nael · Post by **nael** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 7:17 pm

people are free to enjoy the game however they wish. i think you are robbign yoruself of part of the fun if you exploit certain aspects of the game. but i do my share of powergaming as well. i've beaten SOA countless times and TOB twice, so now i will just F**k around and import characters in with tons of equipment and high levels just to do it.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 7:21 pm

I rather think that if you ask 5 different gamers here what is 'fair' and what is 'cheesy', you will get 6 different answers (at least).

Having said that here are my thoughts (but bear in mind that I tend to be quite liberal).

1. Since reloading is part of game-play, imo it is generally OK to simulate a favorable roll. For example, there is nothing IMO wrong with starting a character with straight 18 stats if you are human since you could IN PRINCIPLE keep on rolling until you got staight 18s. I am not suggesting this for all games, but IMO it is not a cheat per se. OTOH using shadowkeeper to give you unearned stats you could NEVER roll naturally *is* IMO a cheat.

The same goes for making sure your protagonist has max hit points and always learns spells. It is a tried and true technique from BG1 to save just before leveling or learnng new spells, and then to reload until you do (same with raising dead). Thus using the listed setting that always does this for you is IMO not a cheat.

3. Taking advantage of poor AI. IMO this may or may not be a cheat. If you are taking advantage of a loophole the programmers didn't think of, then YES, IMO this is a cheat (attacking in Talk mode). OTOH, if the programmers DID think of it but left the poor scripts in in some cases (cloudkilling dragons.....you can NOT use this against the Shadow Dragon so the programmers DID think about it!), then IMO this is fair game. After all *YOU* are stuck with horrid AI for your NPCs after all.

I guess what I am saying is it depends on the so-called cheat and situation.

-Polaris

Parak · Post by **Parak** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 7:31 pm

Things like pickpocketing to get infinite gold, shooting giants (not sure if still applies) for infinite experience, going between areas in the middle of the creature casting, setting traps where a monster is supposed to appear or is non-hostile...

Just few things that spring to mind.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 7:37 pm

Some thoughts

Pickpocketing to get infinite gold? I don't use pick pockets that much so I am not really qualified to answer. If you mean picking everyone's pocket to get tonnes of gold, them IMO that is not a cheat. That is part of the game. If you find a loop so that you can continually resell fenced items, then IMO that IS a cheat.

Traps. IMO this IS a cheat. It is cheating in exactly the same way that attacking 'while in talk mode' is a cheat. You are taking advantage of poor AI.

Going out of area in the middle of casting? IMO that is NOT a cheat because some creatures (the Bridge Lich and Bhaal in the Chapter 4 dream) CAN FOLLOW (so the programmers did think of it).

Just a few more thought IMO.

-Polaris

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 7:46 pm

My opinion, for something that applies to all games:

Any deliberate use of a bug is cheating.

Any use of a third party program (to alter gameplay) is cheating. - This is the tough one. ShadowKeeper is cheating, but using a backup program for the original Diablo isn't really cheating.

Any altering of game files (through programs or manually) is cheating. Another tough one. For instance, the new fix for Cloak of Mirrors (just to get rid of damn graphic) is not, but replacing the new cloak with the original is.

Any 'debug mode' or 'cheat code' using is cheating.

This works as a guidline in 90% of the cases (there are still a few that are sketchy).

The basic premise: "Is gameplay altered in a way the designers did not intend?" That pretty much says it all.

nael · Post by **nael** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 7:49 pm

where can you download the fix for the cloak of mirroring? that stupid globe gets on my nerves

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sat Jul 28, 2001 11:08 pm

Quark,

I simply have to disagree with your blanket statements there.

It all depends on HOW the debug and shadowkeeper programs are used.

For example: If you run into a bug that drained an attribute pernamently when it should have been temporary, then I challenge ANYONE to tell me that using Shadowkeeper to fix it is cheating. Likewise some kinds of bugs can make you lose Rep points and attacks. Again, how is the use of debugging programs to fix such things cheating? [My point is that you can not make such blanket statements. The debug mode exists for a reason!]

In addition, you are giving my prior point very short shrift (and I object rather strongly). IF you are using the debug mode (or a game attribute) to simulate multiple reloads THEN YOU ARE NOT CHEATING. Why? Because multiple reloads are part of the game. [Examples include high stats (but not higher than you could have rolled), always learning spells, always succeeding on raising the dead, getting good draws on decks of many things, etc.]

Finally, before you label something a bug, you need to be sure that it is a bug and not a feature. My best example here is cloudkilling dragons. The fact is you are *meant* to kill Firekraag early (7-9th level), but the only way you realistically can is by using the cloudkill trick. This *seems* to be a cheat...but is it? No, IMO it is not. OTHER dragons (notably the shadow dragon, but also the dragons in ToB) can NOT be killed using the C-K trick...and you will kill your party if you try. Given that the game gives you lots of C-K wands early, I am inclined to view this as a feature to allow you to kill Firekraag early on.

-Polaris

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 2:11 am

<personal opinion>

Making cosmetic changes to the game != cheating (re: Cloak of Mirroring or changing your avatar).

Reloading to max out Hit Points or learn spells: exactly what the Normal difficulty setting is for. Wouldn't be called "Normal" if you weren't supposed to use it.

Bug fixing != cheating (re: permanent ability drain and the use of third party fixes).

Installing a Grand Mastery "patch" = cheating. It was purposely toned down by the designers.

Taking advantage of poor AI is a tough one:

No "real" Dragon will sit in a Cloudkill, let you cast Magic Resistance on it, let you set dozens of traps at its feet, or generally let you get away with anything. However, the designers didn't bother to do anything about it, even though they are fully aware of it.

The Shield of Balduran was put in the game for one purpose and one purpose only: killing Beholders. No "real" Beholder (which all have Int 16) would just keep bouncing its rays on it until it kills itself. However, that's all you're given to work with.

Switching areas in the middle of spellcasting: if a spellcaster loses sight of his/her target, the spell fails. It's like that for the player, it's like that in PnP.

Of course, there's the subtle difference between real cheating and using cheese. I'd say the first is altering the game to play it in a way it was not intended to be played. The latter is abusing obvious flaws that the designers were too lazy to fix.

</personal opinion>

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 2:16 am

The conclusion many of us have come to before is that one should always try to legitimately beat the game, after one has successfully proven their worth, then they can do all the power gaming they feel necessary

Using shadowkeeper etc only detracts from the gaming experience IMO.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 4:50 am

Xyx,

With regard to the 'Normal' difficulty setting, you are correct for SoA ONLY. In ToB, the 'Normal' difficulty level *also* limits enemies to 3/4 damage which many of us do not want.

The *fact* is that reloading is a part of the game, and using it to your advantage is NOT cheating. [In fact sometimes it is mandatory if you really mess up or get lousy rolls...and it happens to all of us.]

As I said before there is a spectrum that seems to go from the die-hard purists to the most liberal 'anything goes'. I think my position while liberal is reasonable. If you use codes to simulate what you COULD have gotten with multiple reloads and/or use programming *features* (things the designers knew about and left in....LIKE C-King dragons), then you are not cheating.

BTW, look at Firekraag's lair sometime. The thing is a gas trap. Realistically you COULD C-K Firekraag before he could get out of that lair. It reflects badly on the dragon, true, but the lair is designed that way.

-Polaris

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 5:10 am

I have a question for the 'purists' out there? If you consider using 'cheese' tactics to be "cheating", then how do you justify it when the MONSTERS CHEAT?

I am specifically refering to the fact that the shadow dragon can cast a DEATH SPELL on your party to kill all your summoned creatures and *remains* non-hostile. If that isn't cheating, then what is?

-Polaris

Laurelei · Post by **Laurelei** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 6:18 am

I disagree with Xyx in that I don't think bugfixing or changing "cosmetic" things in the game like your avatar or the cloak "glowing ball of obnoxiousness" is cheating. But as he said that's his opinion and this is mine

Some people consider using Potions of Genius to enhance your intelligence prior to scribing scrolls "cheating". I ask "What the heck are the potions FOR then?"

Pick your "strategy", "technique", "cheese", "cheat". I guarantee that however you play, SOMEONE out there will think it's "wrong". I have chosen the path that brings ME the most enjoyment and stopped caring what other people think about it. I say to you: Do the same! and happy gaming all!

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 7:32 am

I'd suggest a simple test for determining if something is a cheat: does it step outside the world conditions established by the developers?

Fixing something with Shadowkeeper is not a cheat. The rules lay down that a particular key is dropped by an enemy when you kill it, but if the key isn't there, creating it actually fulfills the developer's intentions. Fixing a bug isn't a cheat.

Giving a character higher stats because "according to the Rule Book of Fred Shenlichvergeit in 1684, my class should have a 24 in Dexterity, so I'm repairing this oversight" is pure BS. Fred didn't make BG2, and the developers did. Again, they set the world conditions.

It's been pointed out that there are activities you can perform which are "cheesy," rather than cheats. These take advantage of mistakes or limitations in coding, such as poor AI, or endless use of potions to super-outfit a party almost at the start of the game. Is it cheating? No. Is it cheating to throw Cloudkill spells at dragons, who then sit and die? No. But these examples circumvent for me both the intent and the fun of BG2. If there's no challenge, there's no sense of accomplishment.

That's not to say you can't do whatever you like with the game, once you have the code--after all, you bought it, you own it. But cheating and denying it's a cheat doesn't convince anyone. Do what you want with the game, just don't try to make us all think you're cheating because some D&D guide published in 1684 in Latin somehow justifies changes to code.

Callimar · Post by **Callimar** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 7:41 am

Mmm. I'd say cheating was doing something that couldn't be done in real life (like killing people in Talk Mode: after all, you generally don't just stand there staring when someone's trying to chop you in two with a large axe). In my opinion, it's ok to set traps down before an enemy comes (you might know or get a feeling that something was coming and set down traps as a precaution... or, in the battle with Amellysan's case, you could know the spots they were going to arrive in and trap them before they emerge) or even when they're there but not hostile (most creatures don't have eyes all around their heads... why not just sneak round behind them and lay your traps then? difficult, but not impossible). And when you notice somebody's casting a spell on you, you don't just stand there and hope it wont kill you. You either run, or attack them. Since you could run around a corner in 'real'-life it's not cheating. In BG2 ALL creatures follow you (well, I can't vouch for all of them but all of the one's I've run from have chased me) into another area, and in ToB I think they even open doors if you've closed them behind you when running (the vampires in Sarudush under Gromnir's castle did this). The cloak of mirroring is a bit less clear (I hate that stupid globe as well... I much prefer the cool disc of ice around your feet like they had before) since it's obivously possible to wear this cloak permanently. The problem is that any spellcaster has intelligence enough to see that his/her spells are rebounding back onto them, and would therefore stop casting any spells on the wearer of the cloak. This isn't cheating on your part... it's just bad AI. I don't think you should have to suffer for the laziness off the Black Isle team... though some people might decide this item exploits a too powerful fault in the AI and not use it because of this (a 1st level mage could probably kill an Elder Orb with their bare hands wearing this item, providing it didn't have a morale failure: beserk and bite your head off). To me the most obvious forms of cheating are stats editors/item creators and other such tweaking tools. Having a character with 25 for all stats and a +100 bastard sword is cheating, yes? Personally, I think cheating spoils a lot of the enjoyment of the game, as I know from personal experience. In the original Baldur's Gate, I actually discovered a way (well, other people have discovered this too, but I honestly managaed to do it by accident without knowing how I had done it at first, though a bit of trial and error showed me what had happened) to create about 200 thousand potions, which I then sold for ridiculous amounts of momeny. This makes all the quests with monetary rewards pointless and unsatisfactory when you complete them. I also used Algernon's Cloak basically every fight, and although this isn't strictly 'cheating' it's still what you might call 'cheesing'. I then decided to do a game without either and it was SO much better. I've vowed never to cheat in any game ever again...

Promise · Post by **Promise** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:04 am

IMO the only thing that is defined as "cheat" is to alter any items/spells/stats with the use of programs like SK, or introduce any custom item/spell. This tends to unbalance the game, even if the custom item/spell is of comparable power of in-game items/spells. Of course, changing item appearance is never a cheat.
For "cheesy" items/tactics, just don't use them if you find there's no challenge. But it's okay to use cheese to see how stupid the AI can be, my INT 2 paladin can easily beat any lich in SoA.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:55 am

Originally posted by Laurelei:
<STRONG>I disagree with Xyx in that I don't think bugfixing or changing "cosmetic" things in the game like your avatar or the cloak "glowing ball of obnoxiousness" is cheating.</STRONG>

"!=" means "does not equal".

I just couldn't resist some geeky programmers' dialect.

Back to the whole issue... I myself am rather unconcerned about what others think of the way I play my game (and about how others play theirs). However, that does not disqualify it as a good topic for discussion, IMO.

Laurelei · Post by **Laurelei** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 10:10 am

Oops, sorry Xyx, guess we're in agreement on this one then

It is an interesting topic for discussion, I just hate it when these topics turn into flame wars, which thankfully, this one hasn't

From the varied responses, though, I still think that it is a unique and subjective point of view as to whether something is cheating. We have those who are saying "this action is cheating" and those who are coming up with what they think is a reasonable excuse for using that very same action because that's the way they like to play.

I personally set the global variables on my evil party so that my half-orc can romance Viconia. Some may call that cheating, but even the folks who created the game say that was intended. Frankly, I RESENT having to fix their errors for them, but I will continue to do so and/or use third party fixes/tweaks (like DaveG's harder Bhaalspawn... I am shaking in my boots this runthrough I can tell you

) to enhance my personal enjoyment of the story.

Stijn · Post by **Stijn** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 10:42 am

Originally posted by Parak:
<STRONG>Being relatively new to the community, I wanted to raise a question about gameplay ethics, namely....</STRONG>

I would say anything that gives you an advantage so casting fireball because you know there is an enemy is cheating but changing the color of your robe/get all romances isnt cheating .

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 11:39 am

@Stijn:

Do you really think scouting around with your ranger/thief and finding out the enemy's location so you can prepare your attack is cheating? I think that scouting ahead is the most logical way to explore things, and the one that gives you the greatest chances at survival...

TC, Geert