What's the Curse of Caine exactly? Is it the Kindred's outright vampirism or is something else. I'm not sure but reading through Golconda I get the feeling that the Curse of Caine refers to a Curse/s imposed on the Antediluvians that "thins" their bloodlines to oblivion by Caine himself. I would make a little bit more sense to me, what with all the clan curses like the Nosferatu hideousness and Caine's desire to end the continuation of his progeny.
It's just that some Kindred are known to call vampirism a blessing and Golconda seems able to remove some kind of Curse or hindrance and let them raise their stats to 10. Supporting the blessing idea because only ancient humans (natural archmages) and supernatural creatures can raise their stats above 5 without some kind of special merit.
Blood of Caine
The term "Curse of Caine" generally refers to the curse put on Caine by God in the Christian Bible (Gen. 4). After Caine slays Abel, God places a mark on Caines head so that no one may kill him, and forces him to wander the earth. In Vampire mythology, this is the beginning of vampirism. God is seen as cursing Caine to become an unliving, eternal monster who must battle with the beast inside of him for all eternity. So, when you hear about the Curse of Caine, its generally talking about the curse of vampirism.
Golconda is a means of partially transcending the Curse of Caine, particularly the parts of the curse associated with frenzy. It carries certain tangible benefits, such as reduced frenzying, reduced need to feed, ability to increase attributes past the limits of your generation, etc. However, its not a complete freeing from the "Curse" either.
There are some Vampire groups (Cappodocians come to mind) who view/ed Vampirism as a blessing. But a notion of it being the Curse is the leading belief in Cainite circles.
There's really no "Curse" that thins blood. This is just the natural byproduct of siring. Caine, in the Book of Nod, eventually forbades his progeny for siring any more, in fear of the blood becoming too thin (and one might assume, in response to spreading the Curse too wildly). That may be what you're referring too. Likewise, the thinning of the blood of Caine (the later generations) is a sign of Gehenna. It's not really a new curse, though, inflicted by Caine.
Golconda is a means of partially transcending the Curse of Caine, particularly the parts of the curse associated with frenzy. It carries certain tangible benefits, such as reduced frenzying, reduced need to feed, ability to increase attributes past the limits of your generation, etc. However, its not a complete freeing from the "Curse" either.
There are some Vampire groups (Cappodocians come to mind) who view/ed Vampirism as a blessing. But a notion of it being the Curse is the leading belief in Cainite circles.
There's really no "Curse" that thins blood. This is just the natural byproduct of siring. Caine, in the Book of Nod, eventually forbades his progeny for siring any more, in fear of the blood becoming too thin (and one might assume, in response to spreading the Curse too wildly). That may be what you're referring too. Likewise, the thinning of the blood of Caine (the later generations) is a sign of Gehenna. It's not really a new curse, though, inflicted by Caine.
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pennypincher
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I think, and don't quote me, the idea of Caine as the first vampire came from a book other then the christian bible, where Caine was just cursed for not applogising.. Thou which text it was escapes me like a well lubed bar of soap in a pirsion shower.
Suffice to say, the story is as follows:
Caine and Able were the first sons of Adam and Eve.. Aww! Look at them! They are SO cute. Able grew up to tend a farm, herding cattle and slaughtering them for their skins and meat.. He loved every animal as if it were his own child and took great pride in them. Caine, on the other hand, grew vegetables and herbs, a much eaiser job which he did with the soul intent on having enough food to live. And so toil they did.
God asked each of them to show devotion to him, and so each decided that they should tithe part of what they had to The Lord. Able slaughtered a calf for God, and it pleased him that Able was willing to give up something so personal and dear to him. Caine gave the lord a collection of his vegetables and herbs, but the lord was less pleased, finding Caines gift lacking a little personal touch.
Caine, to say the least, was miffed. He sat and thought about what the lord had said to both of them.. Something personal, something dear, something speical. He could think of only one thing personal dear and speical to him that would be suitable for a God.
And so, Caine sacarficed his brother Able.
God, suffice to say, wasn't to happy about that either. When Caine realised that God wasn't chuffed, he tried to lie and pretend he didn't know where Able was, hence the famous words "Am I my brothers keeper??". God asked Caine to applogise.. Which considering Caine had just invented MURDER, was pretty sporting of him. But Caine was angry.. He had given his only brother to God and he wanted a SORRY?? Sod you big guy!!
So God sent angels to Caine, one at a time. Each one asked Caine to applogise, and each time Caine refused! And each time Caine refused, the angel would bestow a curse on him. As follows, thou maybe not in this order:
That he be marked, so all men shall know him as a killer (The Beast)
That he wander the earth till God shows him mercy (Eternal Life)
That he shun the light and live only in shadow (No Sunlight)
That he drink only blood, and eat only ashes (Blood, No Food)
That he be doomed to kill his brother again and again for all time (Embrace)
And so, Caine wandered off, cursed, but unwilling to acept blame for what had happened.
Then, in theory, he makes more vampires. Gee, thanks for THAT Caine.
Suffice to say, the story is as follows:
Caine and Able were the first sons of Adam and Eve.. Aww! Look at them! They are SO cute. Able grew up to tend a farm, herding cattle and slaughtering them for their skins and meat.. He loved every animal as if it were his own child and took great pride in them. Caine, on the other hand, grew vegetables and herbs, a much eaiser job which he did with the soul intent on having enough food to live. And so toil they did.
God asked each of them to show devotion to him, and so each decided that they should tithe part of what they had to The Lord. Able slaughtered a calf for God, and it pleased him that Able was willing to give up something so personal and dear to him. Caine gave the lord a collection of his vegetables and herbs, but the lord was less pleased, finding Caines gift lacking a little personal touch.
Caine, to say the least, was miffed. He sat and thought about what the lord had said to both of them.. Something personal, something dear, something speical. He could think of only one thing personal dear and speical to him that would be suitable for a God.
And so, Caine sacarficed his brother Able.
God, suffice to say, wasn't to happy about that either. When Caine realised that God wasn't chuffed, he tried to lie and pretend he didn't know where Able was, hence the famous words "Am I my brothers keeper??". God asked Caine to applogise.. Which considering Caine had just invented MURDER, was pretty sporting of him. But Caine was angry.. He had given his only brother to God and he wanted a SORRY?? Sod you big guy!!
So God sent angels to Caine, one at a time. Each one asked Caine to applogise, and each time Caine refused! And each time Caine refused, the angel would bestow a curse on him. As follows, thou maybe not in this order:
That he be marked, so all men shall know him as a killer (The Beast)
That he wander the earth till God shows him mercy (Eternal Life)
That he shun the light and live only in shadow (No Sunlight)
That he drink only blood, and eat only ashes (Blood, No Food)
That he be doomed to kill his brother again and again for all time (Embrace)
And so, Caine wandered off, cursed, but unwilling to acept blame for what had happened.
Then, in theory, he makes more vampires. Gee, thanks for THAT Caine.
I was Diablorised once. I got better.
Parts of the Vampire legend concerning Caine was taken from the Jewish Talmud. The Talmud is, essentially, a religious text put together by the Jewish tradition in order to "teach." It consists of much of the Hebraic oral tradition put into paper (as the Bible is) and the theological musings of various religious leaders. It was formulated over the course of several centuries. It's a sacred text, generally meant to "explain or elaborate," but its not considered canonical in any traditional sense. So, its of lesser authority, and mainly utilized by Rabbi.
The only portion of the Talmud I know for certain was incorporated into the vampire lore, was the bit about Lillith. Lillith was the second wife of Adam in this Hebrew folklore. She's is eventually considered unsuitable for Adam and cast out. She's become a bit of a Feminist icon today.
The Vampire Book of Nod recounts Caines' journies into the Land of Nod (this is where he is cast into, generally assumed to mean some far away land). During the course of his journey he is confronted by three angels (I want to say Michael, Raphael, and Uriel - but don't quote me on this). Each one asks him to beg God forgiveness, so he can return home. He rejects the offer each time. He is further cursed by these rejections; each curse worsens the initial curse and makes the curse of vampirism complete (things like "feed on the living," etc.) He eventually meets up with Lillith, who trains him in the use of the Disciplines, and other things. Lillith is not exactly a vampire, but is something similar in the Nod tradition. Caine eventually leaves her when he learns all he can. However, this whole thing is fictional; an elaboration on what we have going on in the Bible and Talmud.
The only portion of the Talmud I know for certain was incorporated into the vampire lore, was the bit about Lillith. Lillith was the second wife of Adam in this Hebrew folklore. She's is eventually considered unsuitable for Adam and cast out. She's become a bit of a Feminist icon today.
The Vampire Book of Nod recounts Caines' journies into the Land of Nod (this is where he is cast into, generally assumed to mean some far away land). During the course of his journey he is confronted by three angels (I want to say Michael, Raphael, and Uriel - but don't quote me on this). Each one asks him to beg God forgiveness, so he can return home. He rejects the offer each time. He is further cursed by these rejections; each curse worsens the initial curse and makes the curse of vampirism complete (things like "feed on the living," etc.) He eventually meets up with Lillith, who trains him in the use of the Disciplines, and other things. Lillith is not exactly a vampire, but is something similar in the Nod tradition. Caine eventually leaves her when he learns all he can. However, this whole thing is fictional; an elaboration on what we have going on in the Bible and Talmud.
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pennypincher
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Talmud!! Thank you, the word escaped me utterly!! I reckon.. And I'm not 100% certain.. That the story of Caine and the story of Lillith (seperatly) are both from the Talmud aren't they? The white wolf writters just said "And..er.. Here, lets put them together"
For those who don't know, Pennypincher theater presents, the somewhat twisted story of Lillith in 30 seconds:
Adam: Dang, s'lonly out here, with only animals to get jiggy with
God: Thats Disgusting!! Here, I'll make a woman for you the way I made a man! Mud and air!
Lillith: I'm totaly alive! Wicked!
Adam: Sweet, now wash the dishes!
Lillith: Like fun I will! I've been made like a man, so I have all the will of a man. I'm gonna go hunting!
God: Oi, I made you for Adam. Quit back talking!
Lillith: Nu uh!
God: Right, well get outta here then. I'll make a BETTER woman!
Lillith: Aww this blows! I'm gonna hang with those demons over there and learn the acient art of "gettn it ooonnn"
Demons: Score!
And, then there was something abuot her having many half demon children called "The Lillum" or some such thing.. But I don't think thats offical Talmud stuff. So yeah, basicaly white wolf said "Sure, Lillith's been doing the nasty with demons, she can teach Caine demon powers. Done and done"
For those who don't know, Pennypincher theater presents, the somewhat twisted story of Lillith in 30 seconds:
Adam: Dang, s'lonly out here, with only animals to get jiggy with
God: Thats Disgusting!! Here, I'll make a woman for you the way I made a man! Mud and air!
Lillith: I'm totaly alive! Wicked!
Adam: Sweet, now wash the dishes!
Lillith: Like fun I will! I've been made like a man, so I have all the will of a man. I'm gonna go hunting!
God: Oi, I made you for Adam. Quit back talking!
Lillith: Nu uh!
God: Right, well get outta here then. I'll make a BETTER woman!
Lillith: Aww this blows! I'm gonna hang with those demons over there and learn the acient art of "gettn it ooonnn"
Demons: Score!
And, then there was something abuot her having many half demon children called "The Lillum" or some such thing.. But I don't think thats offical Talmud stuff. So yeah, basicaly white wolf said "Sure, Lillith's been doing the nasty with demons, she can teach Caine demon powers. Done and done"
I was Diablorised once. I got better.
Moving on
Ok, so the Curse of Caine and Thinning of Blood is just a natural thing. Okay, thanks for that.
And I might be wrong but some of you got the mythology just a little bit wrong. There were 4 angels: Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael. Depending on which religion Michael is war (Beast), Gabriel revelation (Sunlight aversion), Uriel is death (eternal life) and Raphael is life (feeding off blood). Then again Uriel and Raphael play varying roles in reproduction so there's the embracing curse for you. Also some even put stock in the idea of other angels, a fifth could have Lucifer. Sometimes they are seven: the above discluding Lucifer then Remiel, Raziel, Metatron and a few others. Then again Metatron was supposed to be Enoch so who can really say where anything goes.
Like you said White Wolf just got together a bunch of old legends and stitched it together into some really cool pseudo-Christian thing.
And Lilith was the first wife of Adam. She goes off to marry Lucifer and spawn the race of demons in general. Called the Lilim. Though some call it the Lilithim and a few others even regard us humans as Lilim. Ever watch Evangelion. I thinki somewhere along the lines of history the Cainites were called Lilim or was it Lamias or both? Oh well, doesn't matter anyway. They're all Kindred now.
Ok, so the Curse of Caine and Thinning of Blood is just a natural thing. Okay, thanks for that.
And I might be wrong but some of you got the mythology just a little bit wrong. There were 4 angels: Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael. Depending on which religion Michael is war (Beast), Gabriel revelation (Sunlight aversion), Uriel is death (eternal life) and Raphael is life (feeding off blood). Then again Uriel and Raphael play varying roles in reproduction so there's the embracing curse for you. Also some even put stock in the idea of other angels, a fifth could have Lucifer. Sometimes they are seven: the above discluding Lucifer then Remiel, Raziel, Metatron and a few others. Then again Metatron was supposed to be Enoch so who can really say where anything goes.
Like you said White Wolf just got together a bunch of old legends and stitched it together into some really cool pseudo-Christian thing.
And Lilith was the first wife of Adam. She goes off to marry Lucifer and spawn the race of demons in general. Called the Lilim. Though some call it the Lilithim and a few others even regard us humans as Lilim. Ever watch Evangelion. I thinki somewhere along the lines of history the Cainites were called Lilim or was it Lamias or both? Oh well, doesn't matter anyway. They're all Kindred now.
Yeah, there are several angels mentioned in the Talmud, Biblical text, and various Apocraphyal literature. I was simply referring to the three angels who confront Caine. That's all in the Book of Nod, which is a modern White Wolf creation.
In the Talmud, you are absolutely right, Lillith is believed to have consorted with demons, and, as I mentioned earlier, was the first wife of Adam. I haven't actually done any more than dabbled in Talmudic texts. So I'm not sure of the extent of her alleged depravity.
I'm actually fairly impressed by the job White Wolf managed to do in crafting their mythology. The Judeo-Christian undertones certainly help intense the complexity and depth of the role playing experience, for those of us who are into those kinds of things.
In the Talmud, you are absolutely right, Lillith is believed to have consorted with demons, and, as I mentioned earlier, was the first wife of Adam. I haven't actually done any more than dabbled in Talmudic texts. So I'm not sure of the extent of her alleged depravity.
I'm actually fairly impressed by the job White Wolf managed to do in crafting their mythology. The Judeo-Christian undertones certainly help intense the complexity and depth of the role playing experience, for those of us who are into those kinds of things.
[QUOTE=pennypincher]
For those who don't know, Pennypincher theater presents, the somewhat twisted story of Lillith in 30 seconds:
Adam: Dang, s'lonly out here, with only animals to get jiggy with
God: Thats Disgusting!! Here, I'll make a woman for you the way I made a man! Mud and air!
Lillith: I'm totaly alive! Wicked!
Adam: Sweet, now wash the dishes!
Lillith: Like fun I will! I've been made like a man, so I have all the will of a man. I'm gonna go hunting!
God: Oi, I made you for Adam. Quit back talking!
Lillith: Nu uh!
God: Right, well get outta here then. I'll make a BETTER woman!
Lillith: Aww this blows! I'm gonna hang with those demons over there and learn the acient art of "gettn it ooonnn"
Demons: Score!
[/QUOTE]
Lol...
now that was funny....
For those who don't know, Pennypincher theater presents, the somewhat twisted story of Lillith in 30 seconds:
Adam: Dang, s'lonly out here, with only animals to get jiggy with
God: Thats Disgusting!! Here, I'll make a woman for you the way I made a man! Mud and air!
Lillith: I'm totaly alive! Wicked!
Adam: Sweet, now wash the dishes!
Lillith: Like fun I will! I've been made like a man, so I have all the will of a man. I'm gonna go hunting!
God: Oi, I made you for Adam. Quit back talking!
Lillith: Nu uh!
God: Right, well get outta here then. I'll make a BETTER woman!
Lillith: Aww this blows! I'm gonna hang with those demons over there and learn the acient art of "gettn it ooonnn"
Demons: Score!
[/QUOTE]
Lol...now that was funny....
Lucita y Aragon, Childe of Ambrosio Luis Moncada, Childe of Silvester de Ruiz, Childe of Boukephos, Childe of Lasombra
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pennypincher
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*bows* thank you!
Yeah, one thign white wolf ar VERY good with, is getting their history right... Or getting it wrong on purpose. I was amazed to hear words like ****h-dee-dunn-on (sp???) from their Changeling: The dreaming game, and Formor... They sure do their reading.
Ahem.. Looking back, the censores seem to have bleeted out part of that word. For everyone who might have even recognised it, it USED to be (before it became a collection of stars) a very old Galic term for the Shinning People who were said to have come from far far away, be beautiful, heroic and good at all sports. In the changeling books they have adopted the name Shide (Shee)... Their less plesant counter parts being the BaneShide (Banshee)
Yeah, one thign white wolf ar VERY good with, is getting their history right... Or getting it wrong on purpose. I was amazed to hear words like ****h-dee-dunn-on (sp???) from their Changeling: The dreaming game, and Formor... They sure do their reading.
Ahem.. Looking back, the censores seem to have bleeted out part of that word. For everyone who might have even recognised it, it USED to be (before it became a collection of stars) a very old Galic term for the Shinning People who were said to have come from far far away, be beautiful, heroic and good at all sports. In the changeling books they have adopted the name Shide (Shee)... Their less plesant counter parts being the BaneShide (Banshee)
I was Diablorised once. I got better.