Do we need to split SYM? (no spam)

[Moonbiter]

Ha! I no longer have to worry about my posts being the most elitist and arrogant ones in the thread

Well, I hardly see how my post could be seen as elitist or arrogant, but if you want to read it that way, so be it.

To be honest moonbiter, I can't see it working. 95% of SYMers are of the higer common denominator, and are above:

So why wouldn't it work, then?

[CM]

Posts are only pushed down when people don't respond to them within a 24 hour period. But they are still there. I mean how much does it take to push a button and go back to the links from 2 days ago?

I say no. But i attempt to participate in both types of threads. I don't mind either, but i am daunted by the intellect here and i just read.

[Tower_Master]

[QUOTE=C Elegans]I vote no, not because I don't like the idea, but because I believe there are too few people around to keep a serious SYM going without the random posts from people who like the occational serious discussion.[/QUOTE]

I'd have to conur with you, CE. (Now, recognizing I'm awefully new to Gamebanshee) I don't necessarily think that it's a HORRIBLE idea, but what makes SYM so unique from any other online forum I've ever posted at is its unique blend of both serious and nonsensical topics. While the spam may be awefully obnoxious sometimes, it's still entertaining in medium doses. And I can't make myself believe that the twin SYMs would, as seperate entities, draw enough attention to continue the current level of activity. Dunno.

[werebeargoddess]

I really do not think we should divide SYM. It would just confuse things a whole lot. True, I don't always post in SYM, and I don't always know what's going on, but I would know that even less were SYM to divide.

[Aegis]

I'm definatly in the no boat. This discussion has been had before, and will more than likely be had again. What we need to remember, though, is the origins of the SYM forum. It's because a couple of us old blokes from the early days of GB spammed the Baldur's Gate II forum. SYM in itself is a spamming haven, we just happen to have evolved as a community beyond that of 'OMG DUDEZ THAT ROXXORZ' and so on and so forth.

The mix of both fun and seriousness is what makes SYM, SYM. It's what has kept me coming back time and and again, and aside from Xan, I think I'm the most active of the original members of GB in general. This is year 5. Pretty impressive drawing power, I'd say.

Give it sometime, and we'll see a reversal of roles,with the serious making a return and the spam dying down.

On a more personal note, I do agree with the post farming threads being annoying as all sin, and no I don't see 'Word Association' as an exception, as it's exactly like what 'One Word Story' was, but without the added incentive of forming a coherant story, or sorts. No only that, but we've also seen an influx of newer members, members of which are still cutting thier lips on what SYM is, and in some cases, over extending themselves before actually getting the flow of the community.

[Kayless]

Yes, by all means split SYM in two. Cut the cancerous tumor out (whether that would be the spam or the serious stuff is up the individual to decide). Some people are saying that the current mix of seriousness and spam is what makes SYM what it is, but I have to disagree. The current SYM is most assuredly not the forum I joined some four years ago. I feel that forum was usurped by the academic cognoscenti and those who would not convert to the new intellectual mindset of the forum were driven into exile (many now reside at the DCI board, which I feel is closer to the old SYM than the current SYM itself). Many old school SYMians left because of this change in tone (myself included, as I rarely post here anymore).

Most big message boards have one forum for serious topics and another for goofy stuff. I think it’s about time Game Banshee did the same. Who knows, some of the old gang might even come back…

[Brynn]

Who dared to vote for "undecided"?! Such cowardice

I voted for "leave it like this" but Kayless definitely has a point, too.
I'm afraid it wouldn't split SYM only in two, but the "community" as well... There'd be users who'd visit the spam part and never have a glimpse of the serious topics and the way around. I like that these users are mixed now.

[Tamerlane]

[QUOTE=CM]I say no. But i attempt to participate in both types of threads. I don't mind either, but i am daunted by the intellect here and i just read.[/QUOTE]

I'm very much like Fas, I love political and intellectual discussions but often feel out of placed when such discussions occur on SYM. So whilst I may be seemed as being more of a spammer, I always log on to view the serious threads first and maybe learn a thing or two.

IMO If it ain't broken then please don't try to fix/replace it.

[Vicsun]

[QUOTE=Tamerlane]IMO If it ain't broken then please don't try to fix/replace it.[/QUOTE]
Depending on who you ask, it might or might not be broken

[Dottie]

[QUOTE=Brynn]Who dared to vote for "undecided"?! Such cowardice [/QUOTE]

Guilty.

I would have prefered you didnt make that comment, now CE will torment me for being a wimp.

My answer would be yes if I was sure the serious forum would be a forum with only serious posts but some room for sliding slightly off topic. It would be no if I thought it would be a forum were the limits of the topic where guarded rigorously, but the quality of the responses were still not serious.

I would also be worried what would happen to the spam forum. In the past there have been many funny and unserious threads that still did stick somewhat to the original topic.

So what is it we are discussing here? Is it a on-topic/off topic division, or is it a serious/non-serious division, or a combination?

[C Elegans]

[QUOTE=fable]No, CE, I never said that, or suggested it. I said that one type of posting tends periodically to push the other off the first page, and that I used to get complaints about this when modding, here. So I was trying to find out whether people felt *2 separate SYM forums for spam and non-spam would help keep all pertinent threads visible and easy to access.*[/QUOTE]

I thought the whole idea with splitting up SYM into to forums, was based on your experience that people were complaining it was either too much spam or too much serious discussion. If it is only a question of keeping threads visible, rather than "quality assurance", then I am even more pro keeping SYM as it is.

[QUOTE=Vicsun]To avoid derailing fable's thread, would you care posting this in the moderator discussion forum? [/QUOTE]

It is done.

[QUOTE=Kayless] The current SYM is most assuredly not the forum I joined some four years ago. I feel that forum was usurped by the academic cognoscenti and those who would not convert to the new intellectual mindset of the forum were driven into exile (many now reside at the DCI board, which I feel is closer to the old SYM than the current SYM itself). [/QUOTE]

What SYM originally was like when we oldtimers joined, is depending both on what we focused at, and the exact time when we joined. Fable and I joined the same time, and I clearly remember Minerva, Waverly and others being involved in intellectual discussions back then. Besides, I don't think it has an eigenvalue to try to keep SYM stagnant, like a relic who should not change. The spam v serious threads has had a changing ratio over the 4 years I've been here.

One thing that has changed SYM is that initially, there were more game-related discussions also at SYM since many of us actually still played BG2. Discussing around a game and characters in a game naturally makes discussions less serious.

[quote="Tamerlane]
I'm very much like Fas"]

This comment I find very interesting. Personally, I would like to see more people joining serious discussion (providing they are seriously interested in serious discussion, of course). However, I would think a split forum would scare away newcomers since they would feel the requirements for posting a new thread was very high. If there was a forum devoted for serious discussion only and a "no spam or off topic or you'll get banned"-policy, newcomers might feel they must post Nobel prize-class contributions in order to be accepted. SYM in it's present form allows for a flexible changing of the level of seriousness. A less serious thread may turn more serious depending on comments and reactions. If the forum were divided, it would also be problematic to post slightly more serious comments in "spam"-threads.

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=C Elegans]I would think a split forum would scare away newcomers since they would feel the requirements for posting a new thread was very high...[/QUOTE]
You might be right. Consider what Kayless had to say:

[QUOTE=Kayless]The current SYM is most assuredly not the forum I joined some four years ago. I feel that forum was usurped by the academic cognoscenti and those who would not convert to the new intellectual mindset of the forum were driven into exile…[/QUOTE]
I don't understand how anyone was driven into exile. Was there actually any intimidation at work, or did some people simply lose their confidence when other people chose to be serious and thoughtful?

I can see how that might happen, but I don't think it would happen to me. Not knowing what I'm talking about has never stopped me from posting here.

And to be honest, I never thought it stopped anyone else.

[Kayless]

[QUOTE=C Elegans]What SYM originally was like when we oldtimers joined, is depending both on what we focused at, and the exact time when we joined. Fable and I joined the same time, and I clearly remember Minerva, Waverly and others being involved in intellectual discussions back then. Besides, I don't think it has an eigenvalue to try to keep SYM stagnant, like a relic who should not change. The spam v serious threads has had a changing ratio over the 4 years I've been here.

One thing that has changed SYM is that initially, there were more game-related discussions also at SYM since many of us actually still played BG2. Discussing around a game and characters in a game naturally makes discussions less serious. [/QUOTE]
As others have pointed out, SYM was started as place for spam and later grew to incorporate serious topics. Now I don't think the forum should be stagnant, but I do think it changed too much. There was major paradigm shift that made a number of posters (including myself) feel like the forum was no longer a place they could be comfortable in.

There wouldn't have been much of a DCI board in the early days if SYMian expatriates hadn't flocked there seeking something that SYM had lost. In that first year there were frequent comment about how the DCI was more like the real SYM than the current SYM (a sentiment that I agree with).

Splitting the forum would seem to be a win/win situation to me. The serious posters get the spam cut out of their threads, and the spammers can get their old fun SYM back.

[QUOTE=VonDondu] I don't understand how anyone was driven into exile. Was there actually any intimidation at work, or did some people simply lose their confidence when other people chose to be serious and thoughtful? [/QUOTE]
Perhaps "driven" isn’t the right word, but a good many posters felt sufficiently uncomfortable with the overall change in the forum's tone that they up and left. In fact, several years ago the DCI board was rife with anti-SYM sentiment. It wasn’t uncommon for the expatriates to take pot shots at SYM, primarily busting on what they felt was the detrimental change in outlook that the forum had underwent. This eventually ignited a huge flame war when Yshania stopped by the DCI forum and took umbrage with what was being said (at least I think it was Ysh, it's been a while). There was a lot of repressed acrimony boiling under the surface.

I guess it's somewhat analogous to moving into a neighborhood, and really liking the place but over the years more and people move there and change the tenor of the place. There are portions of Anchorage that were considered very nice places to live thirty years ago but are now dens for drug dealers and crooks (you can bet the older folks that live there aren't happy about this). I'm not saying SYM is as bad as a drug slum, but it has changed and a fair number of posters thought it wasn't for the better.

It's no secret that I'm not a huge fan of debate, political, or scientific threads, but I don't utterly despise them either. I just feel SYM changed in way that made it no longer appealing to me (especially when some of the more conservative members, like Gruntboy, got banned, turning the place a hippy haven ). If the forums were split I feel the overall tone of the spam forum would revert to what I consider the true SYM.

[fable]

[QUOTE=VonDondu]I don't understand how anyone was driven into exile. Was there actually any intimidation at work, or did some people simply lose their confidence when other people chose to be serious and thoughtful?[/QUOTE]

Not my impression. But we did have a few religious evangelicals who got upset when we didn't march in step and accept their view of their holy book as a priori fact on everything. (I'm not including Kayless in this, though I know he holds strong Christian views.) This offended them. One left, one was banned, and a couple wander in and out just to post their views from time to time, and run.

As for politics, I think the debate about Bush vanished, not because many of us argued forcefully against him, as that he's been shown to be ever so wrong. The economic figures for the US stink, human rights are at an all time low, the various reasons he gave for entering Iraq have been shown to be false, and job starts are the lowest they've been since Carter. It's not a wonder he has few defenders in a conversation where the rules refuse to allow flaming.

But, er, we're getting a bit off-topic, here. What's interesting is the different reasons people see for not splitting up SYM: 1) It's tradition. 2) It will hurt non-spamming threads, but spamming threads will survive. 3) It will hurt spamming threads, but non-spamming threads will survive. 4) Everything is just fine.

If all this is so, I wonder why I used to get those complaints in my mailbox from people who thought SYM was becoming all spam or all non-spam? And some of the loudest complainers were a few people now waving banners against splitting SYM. Don't worry; your names are safe with me. Just send your contributions to Weasel.

[CM]

Kayless personally i think it would be wise not to mention DCI around here. We already know what happened last time someone started comparing SYM and DCI.

[Kayless]

[QUOTE=CM]Kayless personally i think it would be wise not to mention DCI around here. We already know what happened last time someone started comparing SYM and DCI.[/QUOTE]
I thought it was relevant and worth mentioning. Besides, tempers have cooled a lot since then so I don't think a flame war is going to break out here (unless someone starts defending filthy commie hippies). I'm just trying to give some perspective on things.

[CM]

I personally agree with everything you have said. DCI is definitely more fun. I read it from time to time. SYM has become to hyped up. It is a website. Live and let live. No need to define or divide. Who gives a damn what spam is or if its "important" spam or pathetic spam. Its just for fun. I mean if you are gonna start classifying something like spam you serious need to get a life and do something with other people.

Relax and let live. This place is for fun. If you don't like something learn the extremely important art of ignoring things.

[Aegis]

[QUOTE=CM]I personally agree with everything you have said. DCI is definitely more fun. I read it from time to time. SYM has become to hyped up. It is a website. Live and let live. No need to define or divide. Who gives a damn what spam is or if its "important" spam or pathetic spam. Its just for fun. I mean if you are gonna start classifying something like spam you serious need to get a life and do something with other people.

Relax and let live. This place is for fun. If you don't like something learn the extremely important art of ignoring things.[/QUOTE]
I think you just hit the nail on the head, Fas. People are becoming too concerned with labelling everything in our precious little community (Another debate that I hate bringing up ). Once we stop doing that, we can definatly get back to enjoying every aspect of what makes SYM, SYM.

[CM]

[QUOTE=Aegis]I think you just hit the nail on the head, Fas. People are becoming too concerned with labelling everything in our precious little community (Another debate that I hate bringing up ). Once we stop doing that, we can definatly get back to enjoying every aspect of what makes SYM, SYM.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I mean who cares what a spammer has to say if its in a spam thread. If its a serious thread its different. But you n00bs you still get to suffer that no labelling rule doesn't apply to you

[C Elegans]

@Kayless: Since I don't recognise anything of what you describe I obviously had no part in it, to me it actually sounds like a parody when you say your DCI forum engaged in anti-SYM statements, and that you use words such as "exile" and "expatriote". We are now talking about an internet forum! You who complain people are too serious, make a couple of internet forums sound like a war zone!

[QUOTE=Kayless] I just feel SYM changed in way that made it no longer appealing to me (especially when some of the more conservative members, like Gruntboy, got banned, turning the place a hippy haven ). If the forums were split I feel the overall tone of the spam forum would revert to what I consider the true SYM. [/QUOTE]

It has been mentioned many times that Gruntboy was banned for repeated personal attacks on other forum members, not because of his policial views, which you appear to try to implicate. I don't think your smiley is enough to legitimise your naming of the entire SYM as a "hippy haven" because some people here have opinions that are not in line with your christian right wing views.

If you dislike SYM, I think it was excellent that you started your own forum. Since you feel DCI is closer to what you consider to be "the real SYM", I however do not understand your need for another similar forum.