[QUOTE=C Elegans] I thought the whole idea with splitting up SYM into to forums, was based on your experience that people were complaining it was either too much spam or too much serious discussion. If it is only a question of keeping threads visible, rather than "quality assurance", then I am even more pro keeping SYM as it is. [/quote]
It is visibility, and you are welcome to your opinion, whether it's more or less pro. The idea wasn't based on a preference for serious/spammy or anything else, but as I remarked before, the tendency for one kind of thread to knock the other off the first (and sometimes second) page. Then the grumbles would come in via PMs. No one has ever complained in PMs about the nature of SYM's posts. No one ever said "I don't like spam," or "I can't stand serious posts." Instead, they were all about "I posted yesterday in this serious/spam thread, and now it's down on page two while the first page is filled with spam. It's getting too thick, in there!"
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
I agree it can be hard to keep looking for threads. Why not just bookmark them. No offense to the people that pmed fable but how hard is it to click for a thread that is on page 2 or 3. Or book mark it. Some threads that are serious and i want to read i bookmark right away knowing that they could disappear.
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
[QUOTE=CM]I agree it can be hard to keep looking for threads. Why not just bookmark them. No offense to the people that pmed fable but how hard is it to click for a thread that is on page 2 or 3. Or book mark it. Some threads that are serious and i want to read i bookmark right away knowing that they could disappear.[/QUOTE]
My sentiments exactly. And even if I don't bookmark a thread, I'm generally able to find it quite easily again simply by using the search button.
Spoiler
testingtest12
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. Spoiler
testingtest12
.......All those moments ... will be lost ... in time ... like tears in rain.
[QUOTE=C Elegans]@Kayless: Since I don't recognise anything of what you describe I obviously had no part in it, to me it actually sounds like a parody when you say your DCI forum engaged in anti-SYM statements, and that you use words such as "exile" and "expatriote". We are now talking about an internet forum! You who complain people are too serious, make a couple of internet forums sound like a war zone! [/QUOTE] It was a war zone. I didn't witness the whole flame war since I was busy at the time and wasn't online for a couple days (and one of the participants took it upon themselves to delete their thread before I had a chance to review it all) but what I saw was pretty nasty. Yes it's silly for people to fight over such things, but that doesn't stop them from doing so (like fighting over a sports game or bad traffic).
Oh, and try not to read too much into my penchant for dramatic prose. I use words like "exile," "banish," and "expatriate" because I like them, not to denote an extra level of gravity.
[QUOTE=C Elegans]It has been mentioned many times that Gruntboy was banned for repeated personal attacks on other forum members, not because of his political views, which you appear to try to implicate. [/QUOTE] Not at all. I wasn't trying to insinuate that he was a victim of a liberal conspiracy that banished him for being too conservative, or whatnot. I just miss Grunt and feel that the loss of his presence further changed the climate of Game Banshee (which was already drifting away from what I found enjoyable).
[QUOTE=C Elegans]I don't think your smiley is enough to legitimize your naming of the entire SYM as a "hippy haven" because some people here have opinions that are not in line with your christian right wing views.[/QUOTE] It is a hippy haven here (though my definition of what constitutes a hippy is doubtlessly different from your own).
P.S. It's a well-known fact that the emoticon can legitimize anything.
[QUOTE=C Elegans]If you dislike SYM, I think it was excellent that you started your own forum. Since you feel DCI is closer to what you consider to be "the real SYM", I however do not understand your need for another similar forum. [/QUOTE] I don't need another likeminded forum. Technically I don't need the upcoming Sims expansion either, but that isn't going to stop me from getting it.
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
[QUOTE=Kayless]As others have pointed out, SYM was started as place for spam and later grew to incorporate serious topics.
<snip>
[/quote]
SYM was started to contain off-topic posts from taking over the Baldurs Gate 2 forum.
Because we on GameBanshee equates "spam" with discussions/off-topic it means that SYM wasn't created as a place for spam equating "lighthearted" banter threads.
Spam in this context is just as much serious discussions as anything else, when seeing that post-farming/hunting, gibberish posting et al. ("true" forms of spam) aren't allowed to any great extend here (except for Word Asscociation and This That)
Spam on GameBanshee is "off-topic" posts and serious discussion are as much offtopic as banter/socializing on a gaming forum.
Thus dividing a generel offtopic forum into two generel off topic forums would be rather pointless and redundant in my view.
[QUOTE=Kayless]
Now I don't think the forum should be stagnant, but I do think it changed too much. There was major paradigm shift that made a number of posters (including myself) feel like the forum was no longer a place they could be comfortable in.
[/quote]
The world changes constantly and thus the people in it change as well. People leave, some return, new people come and some go. Relationships and friendships lasts and breaks right and left. All influenced by world events.
A great deal of the shift in the attitudes that governed people on this board came as a result of 9/11 where the world as a whole got much more serious.
To say that SYM changed to much is the same as saying that people changed to much. If SYM changed to something "bad" for you, it is possible because you as a poster changed just as much as SYM. SYM is not a living entity but a product of the posters.
[QUOTE=Kayless]
It's no secret that I'm not a huge fan of debate, political, or scientific threads, but I don't utterly despise them either. I just feel SYM changed in way that made it no longer appealing to me (especially when some of the more conservative members, like Gruntboy, got banned, turning the place a hippy haven ). If the forums were split I feel the overall tone of the spam forum would revert to what I consider the true SYM. [/QUOTE]
Gruntboys banning is one of the most (top 3 in my memory) high-profile bannings, but as CE states, the actions taken had nothing to do with Gruntboy being conservative and others being "hippies". And suggesting it has is rather low form of trying to poke at the incident.
Insults from anybody regardless of political stance will ultimately result in action. Buck is "funny" in that way.
Also again - in agreement with CE here - using the term "hippy haven" to lable SYM is rather low as well. This place is not a hippy haven simply because *you* don't agree with some of the posters, or because Gruntboy couldn't control his own temper. And no "the smily" dosen't excuse and make every inflamatory comment all right.
[QUOTE=Xandax]Gruntboys banning is one of the most (top 3 in my memory) high-profile bannings, but as CE states, the actions taken had nothing to do with Gruntboy being conservative and others being "hippies". And suggesting it has is rather low form of trying to poke at the incident.[/quote]
Grunt got banned after being warned 4 times by Buck, personally, for flaming. The final straw was when he launched into an idiotic defense of his new girlfriend, Enchantress, after she'd started an attack on my supposed Anglophobia (I'm actually an Anglophile) so bizarre in illogic and expression that I thought it was a deliberate parody and tried to match it. So politics was in Grunt's mind at some point, but he didn't get warned for that, and he got banned because of flames resulting from anger issues. He was supposedly getting counseling for it. Last I heard, you don't go for counseling to change your politics.
Also again - in agreement with CE here - using the term "hippy haven" to lable SYM is rather low as well. This place is not a hippy haven simply because *you* don't agree with some of the posters, or because Gruntboy couldn't control his own temper.
Kayless, I have no problem with anybody coming to these forums to defend the neo-con perspective, or the conservative perspective, or the liberal, or communist, or anarchist perspective. But yes, those views are going to be put under logical scrutiny, and facts are going to be requested and explored, just as they were when we looked at the myths surrounding Reagan. That's how we do things, with an exchange that tests ideas, rather than personal insults. If that makes us a "hippy haven," then I suppose the ultra right-wing Cato Institute is a Communist collective.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Um, guys, I think Kayless might not have been 100% completely, totally, and absolutely serious when he said 'hippie haven" - as a matter of fact I even believe he might have been joking.
Vicsun, I certainly agree with your assertion that you are an unpleasant person.~Chanak
[QUOTE=Xandax]And no "the smily" dosen't excuse and make every inflamatory comment all right. [/QUOTE]
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
[QUOTE=fable]Last I heard, you don't go for counseling to change your politics.[/QUOTE] I might start.
[QUOTE=Xandax]If SYM changed to something "bad" for you, it is possible because you as a poster changed just as much as SYM. SYM is not a living entity but a product of the posters.[/QUOTE] Perhaps I have. Or perhaps, like in a Twilight Zone episode, I'm the same and everyone else changed (I'm like Shatner screaming about a gremlin tearing up the plane and everyone thinks he crazy... Uhhh, or something like that).
[QUOTE=Xandax]Gruntboys banning is one of the most (top 3 in my memory) high-profile bannings, but as CE states, the actions taken had nothing to do with Gruntboy being conservative and others being "hippies". And suggesting it has is rather low form of trying to poke at the incident.
Insults from anybody regardless of political stance will ultimately result in action. Buck is "funny" in that way.
Also again - in agreement with CE here - using the term "hippy haven" to lable SYM is rather low as well. This place is not a hippy haven simply because *you* don't agree with some of the posters, or because Gruntboy couldn't control his own temper. And no "the smily" dosen't excuse and make every inflamatory comment all right. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=fable]Kayless, I have no problem with anybody coming to these forums to defend the neo-con perspective, or the conservative perspective, or the liberal, or communist, or anarchist perspective. But yes, those views are going to be put under logical scrutiny, and facts are going to be requested and explored, just as they were when we looked at the myths surrounding Reagan. That's how we do things, with an exchange that tests ideas, rather than personal insults. If that makes us a "hippy haven," then I suppose the ultra right-wing Cato Institute is a Communist collective. [/QUOTE] *Sigh* See, this is what I'm talking about. Nobody can take a joke anymore (or maybe my sense of humor has become so sarcastic it's untenable). How often have I made jokes about hippies? Three thousand times, give or take? And how often have I indicated that I was really serious? Hell, when was the last time anyone used the term "hippy haven," meant in all seriousness?
I'll let you guys in on a little secret. I don't really hate hippies (or liberals or green peace or puppies). I like to joke around. That's my thang man, it's what I do. My posts are not meant to harm or insult, but to entertain. But I guess I'm not as funny as I think am sometimes.
P.S. Thanks Vicsun. At least my sense of humor is noticeable to one person.
Oh well, it's moot now. I've come to a decision. C.E. brought up a good point when she asked why I needed two forums. Fact is I don't. I'm not really sure why I've stuck around here. Nostalgia I guess, and the fact that not everyone I had fun chatting with moved to the DCI forum. But it's silly for me to hang around a message board that I don't really enjoy posting in anymore (and where I inadvertently offend people). And I shouldn't expect others to conform to my sense of what the forum was/should be. That would be selfish.
But I'm being enough of a drama queen. So I'll go out with some words from Tolkien:
"I've put this off for far to long. I regret to announce that this is the end. I'm going now. I bid you all a very fond farewell. Goodbye."
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
[QUOTE=Kayless]<snip>
*Sigh* See, this is what I'm talking about. Nobody can take a joke anymore (or maybe my sense of humor has become so sarcastic it's untenable). How often have I made jokes about hippies? Three thousand times, give or take? And how often have I indicated that I was really serious? Hell, when was the last time anyone used the term "hippy haven," meant in all seriousness?
<snip> [/QUOTE]
Most people actually can take jokes. However when placing intended jokes in the midst of a serious discussion while pulling in serious examples (ie: the banning og Grunt) then the whole premisse for the joke is actually lost.
And then no amount of " -smilies" will make it a joke again.
If you in some random "light banter" thread (the kind you say you like) had placed "hippie heaven", then I doubt anybody would have reacted to it (other then with reply banter).
[QUOTE=Xandax]And no "the smily" dosen't excuse and make every inflamatory comment all right.[/QUOTE]
But is the comment really inflammatory if it is not meant to offend or anger anyone? I refuse to believe posters who frequent those boards can't tell the difference between a genuine 'flame' and a parody of one. If anything, the joke Kayless made was self-depreciating, playing with the prejudices that many who hold similar beliefs as him have. Or maybe I'm just seeing intentional irony where none is present. I don't know; you tell me.
[quote="Xandax]
Most people actually can take jokes. However when placing intended jokes in the midst of a serious discussion while pulling in serious examples (ie: the banning og Grunt) then the whole premisse for the joke is actually lost.
And then no amount of "]
So if a thread is deemed to be 'serious', despite clear indication that a part of the post is meant as a joke, everything said should be taken at face value? While I probably hold just as much, if not more, disdain for juvenile replies in serious threads as both you and fable, I do believe that there is space for lightheartedness in a serious reply as long as it's there to just add flavor to the post and not replace its substance.
Vicsun, I certainly agree with your assertion that you are an unpleasant person.~Chanak
[QUOTE=Vicsun]But is the comment really inflammatory if it is not meant to offend or anger anyone? I refuse to believe posters who frequent those boards can't tell the difference between a genuine 'flame' and a parody of one.[/QUOTE]
That was exactly the problem with Enchantress' wild attack on me, for an anglophobia that never existed. It was such a strange parody of an attack for a preposterous reason that I took it as a joke and replied in the same extravagant terms, only to find that wasn't her intention. She was emotionally seething.
In any case, that's just one example. The problem is that even with emoticons, it *is* very difficult to perceive a person's intentions out of something they write. Body language, vocal inflections, facial features, pauses, gestures--all of these things that present clues to what a person truly means are missing in a forum.
In this case, I read Kayless' comments in a fairly serious thread. What's more, he brought up dead-serious issues--the banning of a popular oldtime poster whom he liked, and the way he feels marginalized because his politics don't match those of the majority of posters. These are things that do matter a great deal to Kayless, and he's said as much, in earnest, before. (You can read some of those old threads. I know they're still here.) If you consider all this, it's very likely that he was equally serious here, even if he added the emoticon to lighten the effect of the "hippy haven" comment. It was still a barbed remark, by a member who has strong views. No amount of "lighten up" comments will lead me to think there wasn't a layer of hurt beneath the surface, coming out in force.
I don't want to cut off debate on this subject of dividing SYM, so does anybody have any other comments to make about why it should or shouldn't be done? Or any related issues?
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
[QUOTE=Vicsun]But is the comment really inflammatory if it is not meant to offend or anger anyone? [/QUOTE]
This is perhaps a question more suited for the mod forum, but in general, of course it is possibly for a comment to be highly inflammatory regardless of intention. I can hold the honest opinion that a certain group of humans are less worth because of their skin colour, religion or sexual orientation. I don't have that opinon because I mean to offend or anger anyone, it's just an opinion I have reached based on conclusions from certain information like religious dogma, social darwinism or race biology.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
Moderator of Planescape: Torment, Diablo I & II and Dungeon Siege forums
First, I think that Kayless' comments *were* over the top, for various reasons. I find it very hard to believe that somebody as articulate as Kayless did not intend at least some malice and barb in the way those comments were phrased, smiley or no.
However, amidst the barbs, I also think he makes some valid points. I know several people that have either stopped posting at SYM or do so rarely because the community is increasingly taking itself a little too seriously. People here are far more sensitive and thin-skinned than they used to be, and light-hearted jests are as likely to produce a prickly reception as they are a few laughs. I admit, when people such as Aegis used to lament the passing of the 'Old Days' at SYM, I would inwardly groan. But, more and more, I am beginning to concur with the sentiment. I vividly recall the wild banter, sheer absurdity, and general free-wheeling atmosphere of this place when I first joined. SYM's ambience has changed dramatically, and the bickering in this thread is testament to that.
As has been noted, I do think the events of 911 and the subsequent invasion of Iraq have had much to do with these changes. Perhaps, it is the growing awareness that the world continues to be the unsafe, barbaric place it always has been. Perhaps some people found it distressing that they could no longer escape everyday fears and realities by visiting SYM, since the boards mirrored global events.
Whatever it was, the ambience here became very nasty and very personal. Core beliefs and values were viciously torn apart, and very few even attempted diplomacy (and yes, I know I participated in some of this, so before anybody says it, "mea culpa as well").
I have little doubt that the effects of that time still linger and exert an influence. An internet community, for the reasons Fable cites, is even more fragile than a three dimensional one.
Secondly, I want to say, let us keep things in perspective regarding Kayless' addition of the smiley. As I already said, I think his comment *was* intentionally barbed. But, before everyone starts pointing fingers at Kayless, it needs to be stated that he is not the only person here to have ever employed such a tactic. Numerous people here (including individuals who have posted in this thread, and I do name myself amongst them), have routinely used smilies, and carefully crafted subtlety to insult other members. If you know how to be nuanced, possess the vocabulary and smarts, it is often fairly easy to launch insults without being called on it.
I know this goes a little off topic, but I do think the above issues speak to some of the underlying problems and the birth of this particular thread.
Spoiler
testingtest12
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. Spoiler
testingtest12
.......All those moments ... will be lost ... in time ... like tears in rain.
Every so often, a thread like this pops up. Usually it's a little more blatant about lamenting for the old days of SYM. This one seems to have take a roughly different route, but maintains the same idea, it seems. Every time these threads appear, we always see the same dissapproval emerging, and following that, tensions rise.
As has been said, SYM is an evolving community, that some claim to have become stagnate in its forward progression. Along the way, several questions have been asked, one of the most prominent ones being "Has SYM changed?". Yeah, of course it's changed. Some believe for the better, others for the worse. The thing is, though, we, as a community, have to adapt to the change SYM has took, not change SYM to adapt us. Splitting the community, I feel, will only encourage it to stagnate further, and stunt growth as a whole. We'd be seperated into two camps, and I can honestly believe that animosity would begin to foster, as it appears to have done so between the DCI boards, and SYM. Now, I've seen the DCI boards. It's not my cup of tea, but they have seperated themselves from SYM, for what they feel is what they want more in an online community. It's that simple. The people who stay at SYM are comfortable here, and vice versa. That's why this tension, to me, is silly.
We get some spam in serious threads. Well, hell, it happens. You get the same thing in real discussions and debates. You can't avoid it. But demanding a community change for individuals is just silly, as it is in the real world. People are becoming too possesive about SYM, and that's what causing the issues with misinterpreting humour.
The case in point, Kayless' Hippy Haven joke. I'm sorry, but having known Kayless online for some time, that comment should be labelled, almost instantly, as a weightless comment, considering how often the whole hippy humour of his kicked in here. Yet, we take it as offence? Why? Because this is a 'serious' thread? I'm sorry, people, but this isn't the first serious thread a comment like his was made in, and it won't be the last, so I don't see that as a valid excuse for jumping down a throat. I do, however, see that as a sign that the SYMian community is failing to adapt to new people, and has become over exclusive, that if one doesn't fit our particular brand of thought, we attack them. Openly, or subtly, and I've been saying this for over a year now.
When we come to SYM, we come for the community, not because we don't want to see spam. If that was the case, then I have to question what happened to good nature we used to have, when we had an amazingly healthy balance between the two. Then I have to ask, what the hell changed? I still find time to enjoy both branches of threads and posting, as do others. Not only that, but many people have found where the line is when posting spam like posts in serious threads.
Part of the problem, I believe, is this need to label everything as 'spam' or 'serious'. Come on, people. Lighten up. Let's not get so wrapped up if someone has posted something that adds a little humour or flare to a conversation, as long as it's within reason. This is hardly an open cry to spam everything, but it is a call to take the sticks out of our asses, and become the open, accepting community we once were. Not one where we jump down people's backs, because we're too petty to ignore a comment that doesn't exactly flow with everything else.
EDIT: Heh, got there before I did, DW. We seem to mirror most points.
[QUOTE=dragon wench]@Aegis, lol!
Though it begs the question, "Great Minds" or "Fools" ?
And yeah, your last paragraph pretty much sums up my feelings. I read this thread and want to scream, "Come on people! Remove the damn pickles!"[/QUOTE]
Well, I'd like to respond with something witty, and fun, but I feel that it would outside the boundries of this thread, and not condusive to the discussion at hand...
Every time I see one of these "Good Old Days"-reminiscences, I wonder: what did these good old days consist of? Can anyone describe in a more precise way exactly what you think SYM was like back then? Also, when was this? What characteristics were present that you do not find presently?
Sorry for continuing DW:s and Aegis OT, I can delete this post later if you wish Fable, but I am quite interested in the answer to my question. Sometimes I have got the impression that the "good old days" is merely fictious nostalgia, sometimes I have got the impression that people long for the time of free entertainment when Weasel, Foul, DP and Waverly gave everybody a laugh without anyone else needing to make an effort, sometimes I don't understand at all. Instead of speculation, I would be interested in hearing what people actually mean with the "old days". I can start a new thread, if it's more suitable.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
Moderator of Planescape: Torment, Diablo I & II and Dungeon Siege forums
Simply put CE, people were a lot less prickly and in general far more likely to laugh things off. There was also a great deal more acceptance and mutual tolerance.
Also, some individuals who were around when I first joined have changed dramatically, and in some cases inflated egos have amplified the problem yet further.
Spoiler
testingtest12
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. Spoiler
testingtest12
.......All those moments ... will be lost ... in time ... like tears in rain.
To answer quicky, CE. Yeah, you're damn right it's nostalgia. But it's completely warranted. When SYM was first created, we had a great mix of both serious and spam. Not only that, but all of us knew how to take a joke, and dish one right back out, and the funny part of it all was this: It didn't disrupt anything! A serious discussion remained serious, regardless of an off comment post that got thrown in, and a spam discussion remained fun and light hearted, even with the addition of a serious contribution. People these days are too concerned with labelling everything, and are far to conceited to take a joke as a joke, and see it as infringment upon their discussion.
Let me present a comparison. In real life, you're having a discussion with a number of people. Most of those people are listening attentively, some are contributing. One person, then, decides to make a comment. It has little to do with the discussion, but it gets a bit of a chuckle. How do you react? Do you tear a strip out of that person because of the comment? Or do you grin, maybe even chuckle a bit yourself, and then continue on? If you answered the first one, I'd seriously question your social skills. Most people would typically ignore the comment and continue on. SYM is much like that, or at least, it was. People are now discussing deleting posts that are not on topic, and splitting SYM into forums. Well, I thought SYM was a community, something more than the typical forum. And I thought others felt the same way about it. I've spent 5 years almost coming to these forums, and this site. I have invested a great deal of time, and in some cases, contributed a great deal of effort, time and writing to the site, because I feel that GB is something more than the typical site and forum. We are a community. What is being discussed here is not something a community would do. We don't single out groups of people, and move them away because they may say or do something different than others. We accept them as part of the community, and we live and grow with them. We adapt as the community changes, we don't change the community to adapt to us. I think many people have forgotten that. That's what the 'Good old days' were. We recognized that fact about SYM, and we thrived on that fact.
I thought the whole idea with splitting up SYM into to forums, was based on your experience that people were complaining it was either too much spam or too much serious discussion. If it is only a question of keeping threads visible, rather than "quality assurance", then I am even more pro keeping SYM as it is. [/quote]
