fable wrote:With the right PR and the funds to spread it, this is undoubtedly correct. There are many ways to convince people that white is black, especially when they've trained since childhood to accept that their leaders are good people, and that their political system is the best in the world. This applies no less to the US than it does to Sweden, or North Korea.
Yes, I certainly agree. As our mauritanian guide put it: "All people are same-same, even americans."
Well, yes, but where would you put it all? Especially if you refuse to annex mid-Eastern nations to act as a repository?
You could buy a medium sized castle in Budapest and spend your time ogling hungarian women. I could join you too, if you would like.
While others climb the mountains High, beneath the tree I love to lie
And watch the snails go whizzing by, It's foolish but it's fun
I would vote for bush. Yeah right..
Or Kerry. I'll vote the one who isn't big threat for the rest of the world.
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My avatar changes with my mood. If it is dark and ugly then I am not very happy and often as grumpy as bear. If it is something else then it means that i might be less ''me''.
[QUOTE=Dottie]You could buy a medium sized castle in Budapest and spend your time ogling hungarian women. I could join you too, if you would like. [/QUOTE]
Actually, there's this old palace formerly belonging to the Esterhazy family, not more than an hour's drive away...
So you think we should demand that Humgary stop harboring terrorists, as a first step towards the liberation of the country? Or just simply buy the palace? The problem with the latter is that it's not in the instruction book for Power-Mad Tyrants.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
fable wrote:Actually, there's this old palace formerly belonging to the Esterhazy family, not more than an hour's drive away...
So you think we should demand that Humgary stop harboring terrorists, as a first step towards the liberation of the country? Or just simply buy the palace? The problem with the latter is that it's not in the instruction book for Power-Mad Tyrants.
There is no need to spread the tyrant culture everwhere. I think you should play in another nation and use hungary only as a recreational retreat. With all the money you and your minions will be spreading around american culture will get a good foothold there anyway.
Edit--
This much I can say, in seriousness: if I were in dictatorial charge, I would institute a revision of the primary school educational system that required training in elements of logic in the earliest years; and self-analysis, in later ones.
This is desperatly needed everywhere I think, and its quite absurd that for all the talk about teaching people to think critically no school system that I know of does that.
In sweden the way you try to teach people to think critically unfortunatly consists only of asking pupils what there "personal opinion" is. There is no need to motivate that opinion with valid arguments or references, just the fact that you have an opinion is enough.
While others climb the mountains High, beneath the tree I love to lie
And watch the snails go whizzing by, It's foolish but it's fun
Never worked for me, unfortunately. My logical skills are pretty good, but math...I think math would take in my brain if they could somehow imprint it there, repeatedly, perhaps every day over a fourteen-year period using nano technology. Otherwise, it's a dead loss.
Well, except for Klein bottles. And Moebius strips. But that's not math. That's just plain fun.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Zakk Wylde was the guitarist who played for Ozzy since Randy Rhodes died and He made the band Black Label Society(hence Black Label America) and he is one of the best guitarists alive. He is fast.
Errrrrr, no! Both Bernie Torme and Brad Gillis played vital roles as guitarplayers to keep up Ozzy's band after Randy died. Then came mastermind rocker Jake E. Lee who played on the albums Bark At The Moon and Ultimate Sin when Ozzy was popular not just for being a comic book character on a reality show.
If I wanted a fascist redneck caveman guitarplayer for prez I would rather have Ted Nugent. Not only does he play far better than Zakk Wylde, but he's also not a raging alcoholic who takes public pride in going for 5 weeks straight without taking a shower.
My spare change...
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
Support bacteria, they're the only culture some people have!
The current primary school ciriculum(sp?) implants in kids faith in a government that is largely ineffective, preconcieved notions of right and wrong, and forces them to follow rules that shouldn't even be enforced in a church. If kids would just be allowed to choose for themselves how they will live, with a little guidance from their parents, then our country would be filled with a bunch of bright people who, for the most part, do right.
Thinking critically is essentially the most important skill kids can hope to take with them from school, but i don't think any science class can really do that. In order to think critically you need to look at an issue from many angles. In math, f ex, there is just one angle. 2+2=4. I believe shifting the focus of education towards topics like communication, political science & sociology can lead to a more aware public. (of course, these are the things I studied! )
With a more aware public, maybe then can people think for themselves to such an extent that they realize that CNN is not the liberal version of Fox News! (Famous quote from a neighbor of mine in north dakota. He liked to watch fox news for the conservative view, and CNN for the liberal view... )
No matter how much I miss the US (I'm back in Norway now), there are a handful of politicians over there that I can't quite seem to stomach... Getting back on topic, though, there is one republican I wouldn't mind seeing in the white house. From what I've seen, it seems like John McClane (?) is a decent guy... Does anybody have any dirt on him?
It is good an well to think, that u can teach someone to look at something in different angels. But still the student will allways be a teached person. His view will have parallels to his teacher, because he would have told him what HE think is right... If you studied sociology and all the other stuff u will know that u can tell the morals and believes of a person, just by knowing his background... we will never learn to be 100% objective... never. I am a european (dane) and less konservativ than any american. Just because I am. The true reason must be: because I AM a european. We are just different... and here in EU the differences are more vissible, because of the greater kulturel diffs...
What I wannet to say was: If u really wanna learn something, u gotta teach ur selv... The only thing someone else can do for u, is to change u... when u look at things with ur own eyes and just think a little, u will figure it out all by ur selv... and that is the best way!
Good points, laurentius. You arrested me on my vague comments... What I meant by teaching kids to think critical is that you have to teach the kids to disagree with you. Force them to question the things you're saying. I was a TA for a peace studies class, and during one of the first lessons I taught we were talking about Israel. At one point I mention that Israel was founded as a country in 1947, and all the kids started taking notes. Meanwhile, i'm standing there thinking "or was it 1948..? 47..?? 48?!?"
My point is, most students will take whatever the teacher says as the absolute truth. This was true even in my case, despite me being just two years older than the students, and despite it being at a college level, where the whole idea is to think independently and critically. The teacher's role should be more to facilitate a student's own search for learning, not to imprint their own version of it on susceptible minds...
On another note, I think a teacher should be as respected in society as, say, doctors or lawyers, they should make as much money, and it should require just as much education and skills. After all, I think a teacher's job in society is a hell of a lot more important than a lawyer's...
Oh yeah, just to stay on topic I'll mention the words "president", "vote" and "candidate" just to cover my ass...
It's been my experience teachers don't like being questioned. They view it as more work, and if you happen to prove them wrong, your grades drop. At least, thats what I went through.
Regarding the topic at hand, I have to say I think this country needs someone who's a great business man, who's also far more intersted in education and health care and such than the military. There was a guy locally who started running for office. He started an accounting firm around the time I was born I think with just himself, and a few thousand dollars and it's now a huge company. He does the payroll for most of the corporations around here and his business is booming. No one voted for him though, as he was independant and not one of the two major parties. The guys donated to hospitals, and some other things. Whether or not that was for his political career or from the goodness of his heart I don't know. I do know he's gone from a life that fell apart and starting over to being one of the richest self-made guys around though. I'd have to say someone like him would be a good bet as president.
A female president would be preferrable IMO though. I think we might do better as a country in changing things with more females at leadership positions to be honest. At least just to clean up the mess this country is in.
"You can do whatever you want to me." "Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?" "So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
[QUOTE=Magrus]It's been my experience teachers don't like being questioned. They view it as more work, and if you happen to prove them wrong, your grades drop. At least, thats what I went through.
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That was my experience as well, throughout my early schooling and most of college, as well. I remember being either ignored or disciplined in most history classes, for example, for questioning such matters as how Israel was formed--for questioning the assumptions of the approved textbooks, which were based on a certain very narrow and limited world view. There were many points of what we nicely might call "error." The teachers who just wanted to get through the day, as I said, ignored me. The ones who believed in America The Beautiful failed me or sent me out of class. All except one teacher, who actually graded me separately from the rest of the students, simply for asking the right questions. But that was a gracious exception in many years of schooling.
The problem in the US, as I see it--and I suspect this is just as true, elsewhere--is threefold. First, for all the treacly lipservice constantly paid by politicians to education, education remain woefully underfunded. Buildings are poorly equipped to supply the basic necessities (think: Maslow). Textbooks and audiovisual aids are often expensive. The ratio of teachers to students is often poor. Salaries vary according to state, but are frequently awful, and occasionally little better than minimum wage. Qualifications are jettisoned when looking for people who will work for the wage, and in the conditions. It's an appalling mess.
To the other side, there are no critical standards applied to maintain a level of quality among teachers. There's no peer review with teeth, much less what there should be: regular performance reviews of both content and conduct.
Finally, parents ignore their responsibilities at home to maintain working families where people sit and talk to one another, exchanging concerns, suggestions, and helping out. School is seen as a dropoff repository, and especially useful once their hormones kick in. The result is in some cases schools where a few students actually form gangs that control everything, or a level of student that the teacher deliberately ignores so as not to get physically assaulted. In short, numerous guards are required in many schools, to protect the whole idea of education.
Oddly enough, there is a perception that these problems all exist. In urban areas, at least, people agree that schools are doing a miserable job at teaching. (I've actually heard interviews with some citizens from the rural US who believe children are being taught *too much* in schools, but let's not go there.) There's a strong level of complaint about teachers and their training, and literally hundreds of books available via Amazon on how to deal with discipline problems in the classroom. But nothing is being done about #1, because no politician since England's Charles II truly wants an intelligent, well-educated voting public; and doing something about #2 means alienating a powerful voting block of unionized teachers. #3 means money, as well as acknowledging that little Johnny and Jane aren't the angels their parents would like to believe.
That's my take on it. As schools exist today in America, I see them for the most part as methods of stifling creativity and curiosity, and teaching that learning is a bore. They inculcate worker bee habits that will be useful to produce model, unquestioning citizens. Your mileage may differ
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
[QUOTE=HiRo11er]What I meant by teaching kids to think critical is that you have to teach the kids to disagree with you. [/QUOTE]
This is exactly the approach tried in sweden, pupils are encouraged to have different views, from the teacher or anyone. The problem is that it doesn't teach anyone to think critical, instead it teaches a lassie fair attitude to criteria for a well founded opinion.
This doesn't mean you can't teach people to think critically though. The way to do that is to give them methods to analyze opinions, ie teach logic, theory of knowledge and source criticism.
While others climb the mountains High, beneath the tree I love to lie
And watch the snails go whizzing by, It's foolish but it's fun
[QUOTE=Dottie]This doesn't mean you can't teach people to think critically though. The way to do that is to give them methods to analyze opinions, ie teach logic, theory of knowledge and source criticism.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. And that should be done early in life, so it provides basic tools for dealing with reality. There's no substitute.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
[QUOTE=fable]Exactly. And that should be done early in life, so it provides basic tools for dealing with reality. There's no substitute.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps a small history/psychology lession about how culture influence peoples thoughts should also be on that list. I know that I for quite some time had the erranous idea that if you just ignored your cultural heritage you were free from it. I have also seen people, here at SYM for example, hold the view that if you have a rational for your opinion it means that you are a free thinker unaffected by the values thrust upon you by your upbringing. Both these ideas are quite dangerous imo, as they effectively block any real questioning.
While others climb the mountains High, beneath the tree I love to lie
And watch the snails go whizzing by, It's foolish but it's fun
I was the kid in class that always found a flaw in what was being taught and wasn't quiet about it. I actually did the work, and read the book, and when the teacher made a mistake, I corrected it. If I found knowledge elsewhere the contradicted my textbooks, I'd say so and the teachers would have a fit as then they'd have to prove one or the other wrong and this created more work for them.
There's that thing of not wanting a truly aware and educated society, but then again, America is sorely behind compared to other nations. Granted, our society does need factory workers and people to do simple jobs. Even so, what's wrong with them being smart enough to do other things as well? The job market as is at the moment leaves many with a good degree stuck in minimum wage jobs, or jobs that have nothing to do with their education, just one attempting to get by anyways. Might as well just instill a higher education across the board so the people can actually reason out whats going on in the country and attempt to improve it as a whole. Then again, the politicians would lose the blind faith of the majority here if they knew what was really going on.
"You can do whatever you want to me." "Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?" "So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
[QUOTE=Dottie]Perhaps a small history/psychology lession about how culture influence peoples thoughts should also be on that list. I know that I for quite some time had the erranous idea that if you just ignored your cultural heritage you were free from it. I have also seen people, here at SYM for example, hold the view that if you have a rational for your opinion it means that you are a free thinker unaffected by the values thrust upon you by your upbringing. Both these ideas are quite dangerous imo, as they effectively block any real questioning.[/QUOTE]
That's a very good point. And you're right: there are many people who feel that they have an uninfluenced viewpoint, despite holding firmly to a series of ideas in exclusion of all else--even of reading anything else which might contradict those ideas. Often the influence is so quiet that we never notice it. My father, for example, who was generally a fairly level-headed man, refused to allow me to send shortwave reception reports to the Voice of North Korea in the 1960s, because he was fearful of FBI investigation as a result. Yet he insisted with real heat at the same time that the US was the most free nation in the world, and would listen to no questioning of this.
And here, as you state, there have been some members who get very bent out of shape when it's suggested that their attitudes have been shaped by their upbringing and surrounding culture. There's no arguing with somebody who's in denial about influence. In most cases, it has to be caught early, and outside examples provided of cultures that hold differing, sometimes opposing, views, provided. Of course, this flies in the face of what most parents and politicians want, because the former want Johnny and Jane to grow up just like them, while the latter want little stooges who will respond to whatever cultural buttons they press for votes, money, bodies for wars, etc. An outside cultural reference point means reasonable questioning of cultural norms, and that's a hideous idea to most people.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
I think it can be said of the school system generally, that they simply are not geared towards 'out-of-the-box' thinking. I'm not just talking about the questioning of handed down views, perceptions and dogma. This is also the case at the more practical level.
This might be slightly off-topic, but I think it pertains to the discussion. My son is somewhat dyslexic. He has a lot of trouble with writing and spelling, and he did not learn to read with any fluency until last summer (he is ten). However, at the verbal and conceptual level he is extremely bright and articulate, and he usually finds a unique angle on anything during classroom discussions.. His teachers are going crazy because he learns differently and the schools are utterly unable to deviate from standardized learning.
Basically, schools simply have a cookie cutter approach to any and all things, and for the most part the teachers are not 'programmed' to cope with deviations from that.
Spoiler
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. Spoiler
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.......All those moments ... will be lost ... in time ... like tears in rain.
