Things they should keep and change

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:20 am

What would you like to see changed in NWN2 and would should be kept (in reference to NWN:OC)

To me, this should be changed:
1. The ridiculous amount of treasure chests in all sorts of places. And they were all locked AND trapped.

2. Lack of really making important role-playing decisions. The game was pretty lineair.

Things that they should hold on to:
1. Non-party system. Playing solo is an important part of NWN. And although you miss the really nice and funny conversations (like in BG2 with Minsc!!!) it allows you to focus on one character and really get 'close' with him

2. The prestige classes! They are so cool. Really gives me the RPG PnP-feeling.

3. Point-buy system, because this keeps you from starting off with an overpowered character. When you get to roll your own stats it's really tempting to just keep rolling till that two or three 18's come up

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:09 pm

I agree with you on all points. (though the stats rolling sounded more right if you only were allowed to roll once or twice)

And also:

You want power, you have to fight for that power. In the original Neverwinter Nights there are some points that should not repeat again:

1. You meet orcs in Chapter 2 which is very stupid. A orc with 30-50 hp?
with other words; your enemies should be more challenging.

2. The minimum XP you get should be more than 4. that would be like:
"Oh! cool, I only have to kill 1200 orcs to gain level up".
Either, they make the minimum cap to at least 50 or if the enemy is so
easy no XP at all.

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:54 pm

[QUOTE=Fiberfar]I agree with you on all points. (though the stats rolling sounded more right if you only were allowed to roll once or twice)
[/QUOTE]
But what keeps you from starting a new chracter over and over again.
I have to agree witht he pointbuy system.

I would like to see more ( very small)mission experience instead of killing experience.
When i want the inside of the chest, and the chest is guarded by an orc, why should i get more experience for killing the orc then when i sneak past him and steal the treasure.

Maybe they can make this more class dependend. But that would be tricky with multi-classing.

In NWN this was very very buggy, you got (for example) 1000 experience for the kill and 750 experience for persuation. But when you persuade first, and then kill the character you had 1750 experience.

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:20 pm

A monster is worth 400 xp per challengerating, and a orc has 1/2. On level 1 that would be 200 Xp for a orc (according to 3.5 edition rules). But on level 10 that orc would be worth 1/20 (not sure if my brain works as it should, b/c im tired). that orc would give you 20 Xp, which should not give Xp for at all.

I agree with you on the part where you get XP for completed missions instead for only killing. They should also remove the part where you can do the mission in two ways as Stilgar posted above. I.e the Highcaptains of Luskan, which you can kill both of them and get full XP

Leoneke · Post by **Leoneke** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:09 am

I think they can add more features like clothing, hair and heads ect. I mean, well, I like female elves with really really long silver or black hair. And maybe they can show exactly what the character is wearing, for example, if a character is wearing a cloak, you won't see it on screen. That's too bad as well.
Maybe it's because I'm a woman, but I would like to see those oufits

The Great Hairy · Post by **The Great Hairy** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:52 pm

I'm hoping for:

1) More in-depth story, with multiple outcomes based on the PC's choices. NWN 1 ended up the same regardless of any choices made by the player.

2) More henchie-PC interactions. I quite like the interactions in some of the player made mods, it makes the henchies seem more like real people.

3) More interactions with the world at large.

4) A better way to handle combat. KotOR did it better than NWN, hopefully NWN 2 will improve on that.

@Fiberfar
Don't forget you can dump class levels onto an Orc. Meaning those orcs you fought in Chapter 2 were not just one HD orcs, they were 3rd level Orc barbarians or something like that.

Cheers all,
TGHO

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:43 pm

Rudar Dimble wrote:What would you like to see changed in NWN2 and would should be kept (in reference to NWN:OC)

To me, this should be changed:
1. The ridiculous amount of treasure chests in all sorts of places. And they were all locked AND trapped.

2. Lack of really making important role-playing decisions. The game was pretty lineair.

agree on both

- perhaps if there was more treasure in a box silly things like the box w/ one arrow could be left out & various containers could be made harder to open (maybe making the rogue more valuable in the process)

- and the story should be more reactive to player decisions.

Things that they should hold on to:
1. Non-party system. Playing solo is an important part of NWN. And although you miss the really nice and funny conversations (like in BG2 with Minsc!!!) it allows you to focus on one character and really get 'close' with him

i'm divided on this, imho part of the drive for unique builds / prestige classes is due to lack of party creation, otoh when ever i used npc's it felt like
a - the npc is playing and i'm running around trying to catch up, example being grimgaw.

or

b - i'm doing all the work and the npc is pretty much useless, and it's costing me xp. (in fairness perhaps npcs have improved in the expansions, though now i'm stuck in my ways as a soloist)

on top of that the npc interaction still pales in comparison to something like a bg2.

2. The prestige classes! They are so cool. Really gives me the RPG PnP-feeling.

i might enjoy some of the prestige classes however most seem to have too many requirements ie all my weapon masters "look" the same b/c of the requirements.

or they are underpowered compared to "base" classes, and compared to their requirements. (shadowdancer, harper scout)

or they require a lot of levels (wm or rdd for example) and by the time they "are finally getting good" the oc is over.

i'd much rather see a removal of the 3 class limit, than prestige classes.

3. Point-buy system, because this keeps you from starting off with an overpowered character. When you get to roll your own stats it's really tempting to just keep rolling till that two or three 18's come up

char creation works great as is, no need to change the mechanics.

i'd like to see more graphic options, variations in height, weight, eye colour, facial hair, hair, ect all as seperate toggles. ie a human wizard might not look the same as a human ftr - as is currently the case.

--

one bit that sort of bugged me...

item creation, i think it's cool that you can customize weapons, armour and the like, but why is it so expensive in both skills and gold? (or free in the case of adding or removing robes) i'd like modifications to either have some impact on the item (armour made more stout ie heavier but stronger or lighter for that matter) or weapons do slightly more damage or faster speed factors. if weapon modification will continue to cost valuable skill pts and gold.

Admo · Post by **Admo** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:18 am

I disagree about some of the prestige classes you talked about. I actually found the Champion of Torm to be completely useless, while the Shadowdancer had some really nice abilities (and lots of skills points). But I do agree they should be balanced a bit better, but it makes for interesting variations in play.

I also think there should definitely be a cap of 3 classes, it would be silly to have too many different classes. Takes away from the individuality of characters, because everybody would go for the same things - Monk for some cool items, Ranger for AC, Wizard for some spells and familiar, Rogue for sneak attack, and so on. Much too hard to balance characters, because people would just abuse it and aim for the best of everything.

There definitely needs to be a lot more variation on the look of characters though, nowhere near individual enough.

As for henchmen, they need to be integrated into the story a LOT more. They all just felt like extras, Deekin was the best from this point of view. None of them felt particularly special, nothing to tie them all to the story. They were just there to carry around with you if you wanted them. I'm not especially bothered about bigger parties (perhaps one/two more at the most), I don't think NWN particularly suits it that much.

EDIT: For example, in HotU, there was no REAL reason for Daeleen/Linu/Tomi/Sharwin to be there, it just felt like "Oh we'll bring them back". They needed a story on how they all ended up there other than the "call for adventurers" rubbish.

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:11 pm

Champion of Torm useless? I thought it to be a pretty good prestige class. I played through HotU with a paladin/Champion of Torm and was a close to invincible as you can get.

And I don't agree with you on the class-cap of three. In my opinion it is really strange for a character to have only like one or two classes. Look at the NPC's in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Many of them have more than two classes. That's because it is strange for a person to have only one class. When you run into as lot of locked chest, it is only normal that you take (or rather 'get') a couple of levels in rogue for example.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:41 pm

[QUOTE=Admo]I disagree about some of the prestige classes you talked about. I actually found the Champion of Torm to be completely useless, while the Shadowdancer had some really nice abilities (and lots of skills points). But I do agree they should be balanced a bit better, but it makes for interesting variations in play.[/QUOTE]

champion of torm is a good prestige class, otoh imho it's not too different from adding some ftr levels to a paladin, or vice versa. both cok and pally giving save bonus is tempting too. it's one of the char's i've always wanted to try but lately i've been infatuated w/ spell casters.

shadow dancer has hide in plain sight which is pretty cool, other than that it's not as good as rogue levels imho.

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:20 am

I still haven't played through NWN:OC or HotU with a spellcaster. Only with monk and paladin

When I have some spare time (in a month or so) I'll try to play a spellcaster

Fer'or · Post by **Fer'or** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:48 am

[QUOTE=Leoneke]I think they can add more features like clothing, hair and heads ect. I mean, well, I like female elves with really really long silver or black hair. And maybe they can show exactly what the character is wearing, for example, if a character is wearing a cloak, you won't see it on screen. That's too bad as well.
Maybe it's because I'm a woman, but I would like to see those oufits

[/QUOTE]
I agree on this one!

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:14 am

[QUOTE=Leoneke]I think they can add more features like clothing, hair and heads ect. I mean, well, I like female elves with really really long silver or black hair. And maybe they can show exactly what the character is wearing, for example, if a character is wearing a cloak, you won't see it on screen. That's too bad as well.
Maybe it's because I'm a woman, but I would like to see those oufits

[/QUOTE]
Me too, on all accounts aside from being a woman. I'd never get anything done if I had breasts of my own to play with...
My elves tend to be blonde more than brunette though, subject to class/character.

More character customiseability (is that even a word?), please. And a bit more honesty about the whole 'role-playing' title, NWN is hack'n'slash with role-playing elements, not the other way 'round.

Arctic Fox · Post by **Arctic Fox** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:59 pm

Well, few things that have rubbed me the wrong way in whole CRPG games history...

The first, big cliche... There is a creature/being/power/whatever that even the old Netherese mages or Gods themselves haven´t been able to destroy and then there suddenly comes f.e. 7th lvl fighter who suddenly takes care of this problem on his/her way to somewhere else... Very credible?

Second, the alignment/reputation idiocy: Let´s say I´m Chaotic Evil (works as well with any other possible alignment) and I come to the town I´ve never visited before. The shopkeeper and everybody else instantly recognize I´m a bad guy (in CE case)... What gives? The alignment isn´t like tattoeed in your face! I´d much prefer the system used in Fallout where you had reputation in a certain area based on what you did there and ppl saw it and karma points based on what you actually did (but maybe nobody saw it). So, f.e. if I kill a merchant in a backroom, but stealthily sneak away from the backdoor as well, the village baker shouldn´t be shouting obscenities to my face next time I see her... cuz she shouldn´t know a thing about my involvement! But sure my alignment should go towards evil...

Third... The Plot. Pretty much the same thing as in the first, but grander. Character doesn´t need to save the world everytime. Too big schemes bring too unrealistic solutions.

And the fourth... This may be due my ignorance of the 3rd ed rules or the books (though I dare to say I´ve read 90% of all that´s published), but f.e. in NWN OC there are liches who are not spellcasters (Drawl in Beggar´s Nest and in Wizards Tomb in 3rd Chapter). I was always in the impression that a Lich is especially an undead spellcaster and that the lichdom can not be granted/cursed on another, but only on one who seeks it and performs the arcane rituals him/herself.

Oh, well, that´s about enough rambling now, but I do hope the points I mentioned are taken into accord.

Elessar-NWN · Post by **Elessar-NWN** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:39 am

No more drow!!!!!!!!!
Bioware have gonme mad on Drow.
They featured in BG2, Bg2:ToB and HoTU.
And have it a bit harder. It got boring with Daelan always getting damage 43 hits in Chapter 1.

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:35 pm

[QUOTE=Elessar-NWN]No more drow!!!!!!!!!
Bioware have gonme mad on Drow.
They featured in BG2, Bg2:ToB and HoTU.
And have it a bit harder. It got boring with Daelan always getting damage 43 hits in Chapter 1.[/QUOTE]

Then don't have Daelan with you if it is to easy

Kienan · Post by **Kienan** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:36 pm

I am so excited! This is the first I had heard about a sequal...

The thing I most liked about NWN and SoU and that they should DEFINITLY keep is the editablilty factor. You can edit ANYTHING in that game. You can make your own story with your own weapons, characters, and diolouge.

Kienan · Post by **Kienan** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:01 am

[QUOTE=Leoneke]I think they can add more features like clothing, hair and heads ect. I mean, well, I like female elves with really really long silver or black hair. And maybe they can show exactly what the character is wearing, for example, if a character is wearing a cloak, you won't see it on screen. That's too bad as well.
Maybe it's because I'm a woman, but I would like to see those oufits

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=koz-ivan]i'd like to see more graphic options, variations in height, weight, eye colour, facial hair, hair, ect all as seperate toggles. ie a human wizard might not look the same as a human ftr - as is currently the case.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I would like more customabilitiy, too.

[QUOTE=koz-ivan]
item creation, i think it's cool that you can customize weapons, armour and the like, but why is it so expensive in both skills and gold? (or free in the case of adding or removing robes) i'd like modifications to either have some impact on the item (armour made more stout ie heavier but stronger or lighter for that matter) or weapons do slightly more damage or faster speed factors. if weapon modification will continue to cost valuable skill pts and gold.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I think they should adopt a more KotOR like aproach to editing items.

Arrylium · Post by **Arrylium** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:15 am

As far as human wizards looking different to human fighters etc, I read somewhere that they did that deliberately, so that in Multiplayer you can't tell what class your opponent is before you start fighting them.

PokeFluffy · Post by **PokeFluffy** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:52 am

No more drow!!!!!!!!!
Bioware have gonme mad on Drow.
They featured in BG2, Bg2:ToB and HoTU.
And have it a bit harder. It got boring with Daelan always getting damage 43 hits in Chapter 1.

Ummm... in my opinion there should be more drow. I love them and they make the perfect villains. I also think Drizzt should be in it like he is in every other game. And if you go through the moonwood you can meet up with elves... like Tarathiel.

As for races they should add some common subraces and give you the benefits and whatnot of them (drow, moon elves, etc...). It'll make it more interesting.