Help a Sequel Get made.

john_jaxs · Post by **john_jaxs** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:36 am

You can help the game sell (this is the best way to get a sequel or expansion made) by advertising to your friends, forums and boards you belong to, your family and getting them to do the same.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:41 am

Troika's gone. If a successor's ever going to be made, it will have to be a totally different V:TM style product by a different company. And with two V:TM games that have sold poorly, developers are likely to see future titles as the kiss-of-death (no pun intended).

I'm moving this in any case to the RPG Discussion forum. It's not about Bloodlines, but about encouraging a successor product, and there's not even a company around to target for that.

john_jaxs · Post by **john_jaxs** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:45 am

[QUOTE=fable]Troika's gone. If a successor's ever going to be made, it will have to be a totally different V:TM style product by a different company. And with two V:TM games that have sold poorly, developers are likely to see future titles as the kiss-of-death (no pun intended).

I'm moving this in any case to the RPG Discussion forum. It's not about Bloodlines, but about encouraging a successor product, and there's not even a company around to target for that.[/QUOTE]

Troika is not the Publisher (Activision is, Troika is the developer) and owns no rights to the game's engine and basically no rights to the game, if sales pick up Activision will push for a sequel, but if any sequel is made it will be likely involving Gehenna so that would be the official end of the Masquerade games, unless they do a what if sequel to that or change the ending to Gehenna (it is possible as the game does not have to follow the exact story).

Basically if sales get good Activision will push for a sequel and WW will license another game because Video games is not in direct competition with a PnP game, also they can use the next game to advertise Requiem by placing ads in the game or on the cover of the game.

So if you really want a sequel help the game sell, and if we are lucky it will sell enough to make a sequel, WW would not be the first company to make money off of a product they are no longer pushing or making. Also another developer can always be found this has happen lots of times in the video game industry.

Also when I mentioned Gehenna(the Vampire apocalypse) this does not mean that your character has to die in a sequel there are ways to escape death even when your character is already dead (but these things almost gurantee a great story and many different great interactions, and alot of trials and character changes for your character to go through, basically think of your character as a hero who has fallen to darkness and has to fight againest almost impossible odds to save his self/soul and possible the love ones around him). Plus the story writers can or most likely will allow you to change the ending for Gehenna.

Also a developer does exactly (and only that) they develop the game Activision paid the bills and owns the rights to the game so if you think just because Troika is gone that all the chances for a sequel went with them then you are wrong, even if Troika stayed around they would have no input on a sequel being made, Activision is the boss and the one that holds that decision (they have been for both games Redemption and Bloodlines). Also the last time I checked Activision was still alive and kicking so there is still a target and Troika would not even had been the target in the first place.

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:59 am

I'd like to see some sort of new WW game be produced, but from what I've read on this forum about sales figures and Troika's demise, I kind of doubt it will any time soon. And, if it does, it might be an entirely different type of game. Likewise, White Wolf has moved on to "Vampire the Reqieum." The Gehenna storyline effectively ended "Vampire the Masquerade" storylines. VtR is a similar vampire mythology, with a few new twists, and a few old twists removed. My guess, particularly considering Troika's demise, that if a new Vampire game was made it would probably follow that mythology, rather than being a clearcut sequel, anyway.

john_jaxs · Post by **john_jaxs** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:21 am

[QUOTE=Faust]I'd like to see some sort of new WW game be produced, but from what I've read on this forum about sales figures and Troika's demise, I kind of doubt it will any time soon. And, if it does, it might be an entirely different type of game. Likewise, White Wolf has moved on to "Vampire the Reqieum." The Gehenna storyline effectively ended "Vampire the Masquerade" storylines. VtR is a similar vampire mythology, with a few new twists, and a few old twists removed. My guess, particularly considering Troika's demise, that if a new Vampire game was made it would probably follow that mythology, rather than being a clearcut sequel, anyway.[/QUOTE]

A Requiem game will most likely come out with the movie that is supposed to be made, but as for Masquerade Gehenna ended everything for the PnP players basically, as for video games the Universe lives on it has not ended yet, also Troika's demise has nothing to do with a sequel, as for the sales figures there has been no real sales figures made public, the ones that were called real was proved fake by Troika's head Leonard Boyarsky when he stated that ToEE (I am not sure what it is exactly called) to the best of his knowledge was the one that selled the most, that is why I suggesting to people who really want a sequel help the game sell (this is the best way for a sequel and the best way to get Activision's attention). Also how hard is it to suggest to your friends/families to buy this game or write a few lines on a board/forum (that you belong to) to the board/forum memebers.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:35 pm

[QUOTE=john_jaxs]Troika is not the Publisher (Activision is, Troika is the developer) and owns no rights to the game's engine and basically no rights to the game,[/quote]

I never stated Troika was the publisher, nor did I think they were. But someone *does* own rights to the game engine, just as someone has lost a ton on Bloodlines, thus far. My understanding was that Troika used the engine found in Half-Life2. That means they licensed the game engine from someone else. Or are you specifically saying it's free source code?

...if sales pick up Activision will push for a sequel,

Based on what information? Bloodlines sold very poorly. I've see figures of 70,000 or less. For many games, the breakline of making money is 200,000 (of course, this is just a very general estimate). That means twice as many copies of Bloodlines would have to sell from now on as have previously sold, just to break even on the title. And there's no indication Activision would push for anything.

So if you really want a sequel help the game sell, and if we are lucky it will sell enough to make a sequel, WW would not be the first company to make money off of a product they are no longer pushing or making. Also another developer can always be found this has happen lots of times in the video game industry.

There are so many assumptions in this paragraph that I really don't know where to start. If the game, which has sold phenomenally badly up to this point, sells well; presumably that means if Bloodlines' terrible bugs are fixed, since these are giving it a very poor reputation, which is not likely to happen with Troika's demise; then if some company will invest in a sub-genre (the vampire RPG) whose only two titles have showed horrible sales on the RPG market, to date; then if a developer will come along to take it in hand and risk all. With respect, it just doesn't add up to anything remotely approaching a winner.

Nor have you made a case at all for why any of us should try to get a sequel made. Bloodlines is an intolerably buggy product, and not a particularly interesting title to many people. I would frankly be happy to see RPGs move away from the extremely conventional AD&D nonsense and unimaginative RPG adaptations, but that doesn't equate automatically to the use of any vampire fiction. You have your work cut out for you; and simply saying it's all easy, it can be done, doesn't convince anyone. We're not five-year-olds; logic will get you farther than specious claims.

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:52 pm

But, with all that said, its clear that VtM Bloodlines was a critical success and it, if nothing else, has received mostly good word of mouth from its players. Most people I know who played it, really enjoyed it and spread the word to other RPG enthusiasts. I know I bought two copies for friends for Christmas gifts this year, for example.

Sales wise the game seems to have sold in the 72K rank (at least before the price cut). Buck posted an interview where a Troika exec suggests those estimates may be low on some of their titles. So, 72K may bea very conservative estimate (and its probably only a 2004 figure, as is). However, the game had the misfortune of coming out at the same time as Half Life 2, whose engine it utilizes, having ambitious PC requirements, and bearing a hard mature rating. With the price dropping and the average home pc catching up with the game, we should see those figures shoot up a bit, hopefully. Moreover, while its sales are poor, RPGs tend to sell more over the course of a couple years than other types of games. So, hopefully, over the course of the next several months we'll see the numbers jump a bit. So, hopefully,the games mediocre sales won't deter future developers from doing another game. I definitely would like to see a sequal or, at the very least, another finely done White Wolf game even if it be Mage or Werewolf.

I'm still skeptical about another VtM game being made period. While its true the universe could still live on in the PC world (I actually run an online VtM campaign, so I haven't fully accepted the coming of Gehenna yet...), I think the absense of astronomical sales on Bloodlines, will make a VtR game a more logical step for interested parties. Who knows? I might be wrong. I'm not really sure how popular the VtR material has been; perhaps the VtM has a larger built in audience, though I'd imagine it comparable.

By the way, it was my understanding that a VtR movie has been optioned, not actually put into production. So, there's not much guarantee one will be made yet. VtM was optioned a number of years ago, as were things such as Dragonlance. I'm still waiting for those movies. Dont' get me wrong, if well done, I'd love to see it. I'm just a little more doubtful than you about those things.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:07 pm

[QUOTE=Faust]But, with all that said, its clear that VtM Bloodlines was a critical success and it, if nothing else, has received mostly good word of mouth from its players. [/quote]

I would agree with the first, question the second. Having moderated the Bloodlines forum since almost its inception, the general impression I get from all the posting players is that yes, it's an interesting game, but that interest is just about evaporated by the enormous quantity of bugs that have never been resolved. If word-of-mouth was so good, you'd expect it to sell tremendously. I suspect word-of-mouth was in fact very poor, due to its buggy state--at least, wouldn't that help to explain its poor showing in sales?

Sales wise the game seems to have sold in the 72K rank (at least before the price cut). Buck posted an interview where a Troika exec suggests those estimates may be low on some of their titles. So, 72K may bea very conservative estimate (and its probably only a 2004 figure, as is). However, the game had the misfortune of coming out at the same time as Half Life 2, whose engine it utilizes, having ambitious PC requirements, and bearing a hard mature rating. With the price dropping and the average home pc catching up with the game, we should see those figures shoot up a bit, hopefully. Moreover, while its sales are poor, RPGs tend to sell more over the course of a couple years than other types of games. So, hopefully, over the course of the next several months we'll see the numbers jump a bit. So, hopefully,the games mediocre sales won't deter future developers from doing another game.

With respect, this has the air of offering a variety of excuses for bad sales, none of which quite pan out. The sales figures were given--but they may be off, though we don't know that. It came out at a bad time, due to another popular title--but that title wasn't an RPG, and shouldn't have affected Bloodlines sales. (RPG sales historically have not been affected by those of continguous FPS, strategy or arcade titles.) Sales should increase over the next few years--but for an RPG developer or publisher to make money on the title, it has to sell well within 6 months or less; after that, it's as good as dead. The price will drop, boosting sales--but the dropping of the price means the publisher has written it off and remaindered it, not making anything over whatever is left, save as release of back inventory. None of these factors add up to enthusing developers over another game. Adding them zeros doesn't create a higher sum.

I definitely would like to see a sequal or, at the very least, another finely done White Wolf game even if it be Mage or Werewolf.

Ah, now there, I can understand you. It's perfectly reasonable to desire an RPG based on one's favorite book, or PnP game, or movie, or anything else. I for one would like to see an update of the remarkable early 90's hit, Darklands, which truly represented German folk legends of early Renaissance as reality, and threw some wonderful curves into the RPG genre that no one else has picked up on, yet. But will that happen? Probably not. And with two strikes against it, I have to wonder whether bookkeepers--who, after all, rule the investment line of big game publishing corporations--will give the green light in the future to any vampire-based RPGs. I have my doubts. I do wish you luck on this, however, without myself having much enthusiasm for or against it.

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:28 pm

You may very well be right about sales. My guess is the game will be lucky to cross the 100K mark by the end of the year. As you pointed out in an earlier thread, its sales are not horrible, but very mediocre. I'd imagine considering the time invested in the game, the sales were quite dissappointing. Still, it seemed to have fallen the way of really bad marketing strategy.

I would agree that a White Wolf game is not likely in the immediate future. Heck, I was shocked to see Bloodlines come out, in the wake of the mediocrity that was Redemption. Still, White Wolf as a company is still doing relatively well, and I imagine they will continue to appeal to some developers as source materials. The material they produce seems to translate fairly well (as most PnP RPGs do) to the PC, or at least be ripe for a good translation. And, I imagine that will make it attractive to other developers. There is an active WW role playing community, novel reading community, and those who just buy the PnP books to read.... (very bizarre, but its true). So, it's also very alive material (wow, that's a horrible turn of phrase when talking about Vampire...), in a way that something like Darklands is not. So I would not be surprised to see another go at the game be made down the road.

One of the questions the relative failure of Bloodlines leaves us with is whether there is a market for a strictly mature CRPG? Or, at the very least, one on as big of a budget at Bloodlines was. I'd imagine if there was another attempt, it would be made a bit more teenager-friendly, than Bloodlines was. I may very well be wrong, but it would strike me as something that needed to be considered.

Finally, I continue to argue that the game was well received by most players. Perhaps this is largely based on my own personal experience with both these forums and friends who play the game. Even in wake of the griping about the occasional bug (which, I personally, found no more of an issue than many other CRPGs I've encountered) the forum exudes a fundamental love of the game, in a way that many other GB forums do not. Moreover, its been a fairly active forum here on GB (and other places, as well). While certainly no where in the league of BGII, KOTOR, or Morrowind, its done fairly well as a forum for a game that sold so badly. That's my impression anyway, and I've been following the forum fairly closely for a few months. You may have a completely diffeterent impression, though. Regardless, in my estimate, word of mouth doesn't equate to sales (particularly initial sales, which is what we're talking about). PST received great word of mouth, but still sold fairly porly in its first year (and it was a D&D title, which normally equates to sales). Meanwhile, games without substance (including RPGs) continue to sell well each year because they feature orcs and goblins. *shrug* I'm simply baffled by it all.

john_jaxs · Post by **john_jaxs** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:35 pm

[QUOTE=fable]I never stated Troika was the publisher, nor did I think they were. But someone *does* own rights to the game engine, just as someone has lost a ton on Bloodlines, thus far. My understanding was that Troika used the engine found in Half-Life2. That means they licensed the game engine from someone else. Or are you specifically saying it's free source code?[/QUOTE]

Valve owns the rights to the engine, Troika had some kind of business relation with them and Valve allowed Troika to use the engine, Troika did not licensed the engine in anyway and has no rights to the engine. It is not free souce code, but it does not belong to Troika, comes down to this Troika basically gave all their rights away (usually the developer owns the rights to the characters and the engine, but not in this case), they took the engine that is still licensed to Valve and they got the V:TM video game making license from Activision who assigned them the license to make the game (Activision did not give up the license), and White Wolf owns all the rights to the characters.

Also it has been shown hundreds of times in the gaming industry that good selling titles will have a sequel, and I can not give you any thing or talk you into anyway in helping the game sell, it comes down to this if you want a sequel then you need to help the game sell it is the best way to get one, if you don't want a sequel or want to try to help make a sequel then don't do it I can not force you and I would not try to force you even if I could.

I just thought with the fans asking and thinking that their chance of having a sequel went to the grave with Troika should know that it did not.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:44 pm

[QUOTE=john_jaxs]Valve owns the rights to the engine, Troika had some kind of business relation with them and Valve allowed Troika to use the engine, Troika did not licensed the engine in anyway and has no rights to the engine.[/quote]

Again, you're misinformed. If Troika had not licensed the engine from Valve, they couldn't have used it. What you refer to as "some kind of business relation" clearly involved licensing the engine for Bloodlines.

Also it has been shown hundreds of times in the gaming industry that good selling titles will have a sequel, and I can not give you any thing or talk you into anyway in helping the game sell...

If the game hasn't sold well by now, it's not going to sell well, in the future. There is no game I'm aware of that did very poorly during the first 6 months of release, then suddenly took off and did triple or quadruple the business afterwards. Should you know of such, please feel free to post it. I would sincerely be interested in hearing facts about such a phenomenon. Until you do, it has to be noted that your efforts are hampered by a lack of any good arguments why a game company would want to make such a sequel.

I just thought with the fans asking and thinking that their chance of having a sequel went to the grave with Troika should know that it did not.

While I can appreciate your obvious desire for a follwup, it helps to have expectations grounded in reality. Troika marketed the game very poorly, just as Faust mentioned. It's also still very buggy and frustrating to many people--Faust did not find it so, but I admit I did, and so have quite a few people playing it (as our forums will show, for dozens of pages). At this point, a crusade for a V:TM successor doesn't seem feasible to me in any respect, but that's not to say its ruled out completely in the future.

john_jaxs · Post by **john_jaxs** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:12 pm

Again, you're misinformed. If Troika had not licensed the engine from Valve, they couldn't have used it. What you refer to as "some kind of business relation" clearly involved licensing the engine for Bloodlines.

Valve loaned the engine as stated by Leonard Boyarkys (not sure if I spelled his last name right) in a interview, it was also stated by Valve that they stilled owned the rights to the engine, Troika may haved licensed the game's engine for Bloodlines, but using the engine for a sequel would not be Troika's decision it would be Valve's, Valve was very strick on the details of Troika using the engine and wouldn't even give them the most recent version of the engine. It was also stated by Leon that they had relations before with Valve and since I don't know of any games besides Bloodlines that would had involved relations with Valve you can figure it out, also I believe some one from Troika stated that were good pals with the people over at Valve.

If the game hasn't sold well by now, it's not going to sell well, in the future. There is no game I'm aware of that did very poorly during the first 6 months of release, then suddenly took off and did triple or quadruple the business afterwards. Should you know of such, please feel free to post it. I would sincerely be interested in hearing facts about such a phenomenon.

I don't know if it was during the first 6 months I think it was during the first 2 months, but GTA3 was such a phenomenon they started selling as usually, then word got around on how the games graphics changed and sells took off like a phenomenon. As for more phenomenons I don't know anything like that because I don't follow game sales, all I know is this RPGs take usually awhile to reach there sales target and all I know is this from having a friend's father involved in the video game business, if sales pick up then it most likely will get a sequel, and it will not be the first time that a RPG comes from behind in sales and gets a sequel, again I don't know any details on those games.

Troika marketed the game very poorly

Activision would be in charged of Marketing and they were busy with Half-Life 2. Also Valve made it strick that any marketing of Bloodlines would not overshadowed Half-Life 2s marketing and would not even try to overshadow Half-Life 2s marketing, they also would not allow Troika to come out with Bloodlines before Valve came out with HL2.

It's also still very buggy and frustrating to many people

Bugs were fixed by two patches one unofficial patch 1.2 by Dan Upright and one official patch 1.2 by Troika, all major bugs were taken care of in both patches. Both can be found at http://www.planetvampire.com/ also if you have more then 512mb of ram you will most likely get no choppy frame rates as I recieved pretty much none when using only 512mb (I got none in battle, got none in interacting with other characters, got none when inside buildings, only got it when entering the towns for the first time when playing, after the first time they went away).

Here are my specs when playing the game:

Intel P4 2.60 GHz hyperthreading processor

Nvidia Geforce FX5200

Kingston 512mb DDR PC3200

Motherboard ASUS P4S800D-E Deluxe

80GB/60GB 7200 RPM Western Digital Hard Drive

CD Writer 32x/12x/40x, DVD writer 8x

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:20 pm

[QUOTE=john_jaxs]I don't know if it was during the first 6 months I think it was during the first 2 months, but GTA3 was such a phenomenon they started selling as usually, then word got around on how the games graphics changed and sells took off like a phenomenon.[/quote]

That's not the answer to the request I made of you, though, was it?

Activision would be in charged of Marketing and they were busy with Half-Life 2.

The fact remains that Bloodlines was very poorly marketed. And they weren't simply "busy" with Half-Life2. They have a large marketing department and set up campaigns in considerable advance of release. They simply got their marketing strategy wrong.

Bugs were fixed by two patches one unofficial patch 1.2 by Dan Upright and one official patch 1.2 by Troika, all major bugs were taken care of in both patches.

By all means, believe what you want, but don't check our forums, or you will find hundreds of posts from people who disagree with you.

To this day, it remains an exceptionally buggy and frustrating game for many people who continue to complain. If you don't think this has adversely affected sales, I think you are sadly mistaken.

john_jaxs · Post by **john_jaxs** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:33 pm

The fact remains that Bloodlines was very poorly marketed. And they weren't simply "busy" with Half-Life2. They have a large marketing department and set up campaigns in considerable advance of release. They simply got their marketing strategy wrong.

As stated above:

Also Valve made it strick that any marketing of Bloodlines would not overshadowed Half-Life 2s marketing and would not even try to overshadow Half-Life 2s marketing, they also would not allow Troika to come out with Bloodlines before Valve came out with HL2.

By all means, believe what you want, but don't check our forums, or you will find hundreds of posts from people who disagree with you. To this day, it remains an exceptionally buggy and frustrating game for many people who continue to complain. If you don't think this has adversely affected sales, I think you are sadly mistaken.

It is not believeing what I want, I had the same bugs that you are talking about (the choppy frame rate, Leopold crash, graphic glitches, distorted sound) but I used the unofficial patch 1.2 installing first and then installing the official patch 1.2 and got none right after that as other people have reported in the White Wolf Bloodlines forum and PlanetVampire forums.

That's not the answer to the request I made of you, though, was it?

Nope it is not the answer to the request that you made, but it is not exactly totally different then the one you made, if you want answers to that you are just going to figure it out, I am not going through thousands of game sales to find a game that fits that picture.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:41 pm

[QUOTE=john_jaxs]Also Valve made it strick that any marketing of Bloodlines would not overshadowed Half-Life 2s marketing and would not even try to overshadow Half-Life 2s marketing, they also would not allow Troika to come out with Bloodlines before Valve came out with HL2.[/quote]

Where do you get this "insider" information that Vavle had somehow insisted Bloodlines not "overshadow" Half-Life marketing? Speaking as someone who has done some professional marketing with large companies in the past, this doesn't even make basic sense. There's no way to measure the marketing of one product directly against another, given all the permutations involved (different media, sources within each media, cash for investment, free resources, etc). If Valve truly said that they wanted marketing resources put first at the disposal of Half-Life 2 and not Bloodlines, I'd like to see that. In print. Let's have some sources for this Valve insistence, if you please. And something more than ridiculous hearsay, hopefully.

It is not believeing what I want, I had the same bugs that you are talking about (the choppy frame rate, Leopold crash, graphic glitches, distorted sound) but I used the unofficial patch 1.2 installing first and then installing the official patch 1.2 and got none right after that as other people have reported in the White Wolf Bloodlines forum and PlanetVampire forums.

I was wrong; we actually have over a thousand posts from people who have used the 1.2 patch, and are still complaining about problems that weren't solved.

Nope it is not the answer to the request that you made, but it is not exactly totally different then the one you made,

It is totally different from it. Allow me, please, to repeat: "If the game hasn't sold well by now, it's not going to sell well, in the future. There is no game I'm aware of that did very poorly during the first 6 months of release, then suddenly took off and did triple or quadruple the business afterwards. Should you know of such, please feel free to post it."

There's simply nothing that has remotely fulfilled the conditions you're asking Bloodlines to fulfill, which would involve more than breaking even after such a heavy loss in the first 6 months of release. That's just the way it is. I know you want that sequel for emotional reasons, but logically, there's nothing out there to put forward as a case for such a sequel at this time.

john_jaxs · Post by **john_jaxs** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:54 pm

Message to the fans not Fable if you want a sequel then help the game sell that is the best way, petitions (mailing letters will also help but it will not sway the decision that much) may add to it but it is not the best way to get a sequel, everyone knows someone that you don't (at least one) your friends know someone that you don't most likely, your brother/sister/father/mother knows someone you don't most likely and when you add all those people you don't know and who they might know you get millions so if you want a sequel then it is simple help sell the game, the game is selling for between $49.99 to $39.99 on official dealers and cheaper on dealers like ebay/half, and amazon.

Here is my last replies to Fable (I already got in another debate over similar things about a sequel and I am not going to waste another almost 30 posts debating until one side can't post anymore):

Where do you get this "insider" information that Vavle had somehow insisted Bloodlines not "overshadow" Half-Life marketing? Speaking as someone who has done some professional marketing with large companies in the past, this doesn't even make basic sense. There's no way to measure the marketing of one product directly against another, given all the permutations involved (different media, sources within each media, cash for investment, free resources, etc). If Valve truly said that they wanted marketing resources put first at the disposal of Half-Life 2 and not Bloodlines, I'd like to see that. In print. Let's have some sources for this Valve insistence, if you please. And something more than ridiculous hearsay, hopefully.

It was posted in numerous times on websites (I am not going to look for it as you can easly type as you have already proven that and it being public knowledge) as like Gamespot, gamers, gamepro, imdb, that Valve would not allow Troika to release the game ahead of Half-Life 2, Half-Life 2 had to be on the market before Bloodlines (if you are in marketing then you know this is a marketing move and this would count as overshadowing the release by a more bigger name game), as for Valve stating that Bloodlines advertisements could not overshadowed HL2 all I got is reliable infomation from people (so yeah basically hearsay) that I have known awhile (ranging from 2-4 years they could be lying but they have been right/wrong before and more on the right then wrong), but it makes sense, why don't you ask how many people saw this game on a website like they saw Half-Life 2, how many have been fans that actually went looking for this game, how many saw this game on WW websites, how many saw this game on fan websites, how many people had to see this game listed at the bottom of a source or HL2 statements (like the source engine is going to power Vampire Masquerade Bloodlines also and on to more HL2/source engine details), if you say that HL2 did not overshadowed Bloodlines then that is your opinion, I can't say anthing else that will convince you that it did only that compare to a casually gamer they are going to pick HL2 over Bloodlines anyday.

Also why don't you show me where they had:

They have a large marketing department and set up campaigns in considerable advance of release. They simply got their marketing strategy wrong.

Dedicated to promoting Bloodlines, I don't know I never saw any large campaigns or any, why don't you show me where I can find this infomation in print? I answered two of your questions using actually proof that you can get from website like Gamespot, IGN, gamers, imdb and others.

I was wrong; we actually have over a thousand posts from people who have used the 1.2 patch, and are still complaining about problems that weren't solved.

Hey I am glad that I did not have that many bugs as other people and the patch cleared what it was supposed to do for me and for many people who belonged to the planetvampire forums and the White Wolf forums, but as I searched your Bloodlines posts I found only three mentions of the unofficial patch.

It is totally different from it. Allow me, please, to repeat: "If the game hasn't sold well by now, it's not going to sell well, in the future. There is no game I'm aware of that did very poorly during the first 6 months of release, then suddenly took off and did triple or quadruple the business afterwards. Should you know of such, please feel free to post it."

There's simply nothing that has remotely fulfilled the conditions you're asking Bloodlines to fulfill, which would involve more than breaking even after such a heavy loss in the first 6 months of release. That's just the way it is. I know you want that sequel for emotional reasons, but logically, there's nothing out there to put forward as a case for such a sequel at this time.

Midways recent games like the Suffering might fulfilled the conditions you want, as for making a case for you I am not here to do so and the fans who want a sequel should not feel that they should also, unless you got some say in a sequel being made then no one has to make a case for you, also I never heard of cases being put forward in trying to get a sequel made for another game or trying to get the fans to help game sales as that makes little sense, if your right about no game ever coming back after that (and that is to say that you know thousands of video game sales) long of months and if the fans (I can't do it alone and I can see from numorous posts on other boards that I not they only one who wants a sequel) actually can make it come back after such long of months then it is going to add a little + to make a sequel as Bloodlines would not be the first underdog game to make history, also as I leave this thread, I want to repeat myself one more time on this:

All I know is this from having a friend's father involved in the video game business, if sales pick up then it most likely will get a sequel, and it will not be the first time that a RPG comes from behind in sales and gets a sequel.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:05 am

[QUOTE=john_jaxs]as for Valve stating that Bloodlines advertisements could not overshadowed HL2 all I got is reliable infomation from people (so yeah basically hearsay) that I have known awhile (ranging from 2-4 years they could be lying but they have been right/wrong before and more on the right then wrong), but it makes sense...[/quote]

So this is the "proof" that Valve, to quote you, "made it strick that any marketing of Bloodlines would not overshadowed Half-Life 2s marketing and would not even try to overshadow Half-Life 2s marketing...?" Some unnamed people who say "it makes sense"? To be honest, the idea that somebody high up in Valve could somehow stipulate in contract that another product with another company be deliberately shortchanged sounds melodramatic, not sensible. All the conditions for marketing software are set out in legally binding contracts between the parties involved--in this case, the developers, the publisher, and the holder to the rights of the engine, Valve. For Valve to create a Half-Life2 contract with Atari stipulating terms that undercut those already signed in a Bloodlines contract is utterly unlike any idea I've heard before, not simply for the gaming industry, but for the US legal system. It would be wildly illegal, of course, with Atari and Valve putting themselves in jeopardy of huge fines for corporate fraud. And it would make no sense at all--since the audience for Half-Life2 isn't identical with the audience of Bloodlines, since they belong to vastly different genres.

I'm afraid this is supposition on your part, not proof of anything.

Also why don't you show me where they had "a large marketing department and set up campaigns in considerable advance of release. They simply got their marketing strategy wrong."

You mean, other than the fact that you presuppose two companies would commit major felonies to sabotage a game, while I'm just suggesting a few people made an error of judgement?

I began working with some of the regulars in Atari/Infogrames' US marketing and PR division, such as Erika Krishnamurti and Jenny Bendel, when they were still at other companies, and I was writing back in the mid-1980s. (Erika was a most capable PR manager for Activision for many years, for instance.) Later they joined or moved into A/I, and I continued the professional relationship, there. I found them (particularly Erika) friendly, helpful, and informative, in contrast to some marketing/PR people I could name at other companies over the years. Nowadays newer names have moved in and some old hands have moved out, but the A/I marketing team remains a large, well-defined group of people with headquarters in LA and (less well-known, because not advertised) in NY. Feel free to call them to determine the size of the department. As regards the campaign remarks I've made, I freely acknowledge those are simply our opinions, based on discussions with some of these marketing people and editors at a couple of magazines I write for. We could well be wrong, despite being game industry watchers for more than two decades. But note, I haven't made any claims of secret contracts between one company and another to sabotage a game's sales, which to be frank sounds like a bad anime plot.

Dedicated to promoting Bloodlines, I don't know I never saw any large campaigns or any, why don't you show me where I can find this infomation in print? I answered two of your questions using actually proof that you can get from website like Gamespot, IGN, gamers, imdb and others.

This is the information you've provided, thus far: 1) It's "public knowledge" that Valve sabotaged the marketing of Bloodlines, a few of us know this because we discussed it and decided it was accurate. 2) I don't know of a game that sold quadruple their previous receipts after the first 6 months' of sales, but I know one that did well after 2 months.

Those replies do not constitute answers to any questions: sorry. As I noted above, your remarks are those of a crusader with a strong emotional desire to see a new sequel. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but even a crusader needs a strategy based on realworld conditions--such as a way to generate enthusiasm in the disgruntled base of players (check out our forums) who gripe about all the remaining bugs in the game; and a logical way to sell four times the number of copies that the game has shown to date, in order to more than break even on this loss title and demonstrate Bloodlines' market validity.

When you've thought through these issues, by all means, come back, and let's hear a detailed battle strategy. Good luck on this.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:02 am

[QUOTE=Faust]You may very well be right about sales. My guess is the game will be lucky to cross the 100K mark by the end of the year. As you pointed out in an earlier thread, its sales are not horrible, but very mediocre. I'd imagine considering the time invested in the game, the sales were quite dissappointing. Still, it seemed to have fallen the way of really bad marketing strategy.[/quote]

Agreed. Poor marketing can kill a game. Who remembers Lucasarts' Afterlife? -Yet it was in its own way as good a game as any in the SimCity series, and a lot more imaginative. But the company decided it wasn't going to make money, so they cut their projected losses in advance by killing a marketing campaign that had been planned for it. Heather Phillips, current PR manager at Lucasarts who was an assistant at the time, told me once the game died for lack of trying. It's certainly possible to strangle good infant games in the cradle, and it's been done.

I would agree that a White Wolf game is not likely in the immediate future. Heck, I was shocked to see Bloodlines come out, in the wake of the mediocrity that was Redemption. Still, White Wolf as a company is still doing relatively well, and I imagine they will continue to appeal to some developers as source materials. The material they produce seems to translate fairly well (as most PnP RPGs do) to the PC, or at least be ripe for a good translation. And, I imagine that will make it attractive to other developers. There is an active WW role playing community, novel reading community, and those who just buy the PnP books to read.... (very bizarre, but its true). So, it's also very alive material (wow, that's a horrible turn of phrase when talking about Vampire...), in a way that something like Darklands is not. So I would not be surprised to see another go at the game be made down the road.

You make a good case for it--always allowing, of course, for the opinions of accountants who determine these days what games get commissioned or not by large publishers. And since small developers seldom act as publishers any longer, it's unlikely a White Wolf game will be made without a contract from a publisher like UbiSoft or Atari. So the goal of an enthused developer, as I see it, will be to convince the publisher of the validity of such a contract. That could prove a hard thing to do.

Let me give an example of why I believe that's the case.

A number of years ago, an excellent strategy company (Frog City, makers of the Imperialism series, Trade Empires, and Tropico 2: Pirate cove; no reason any longer to hide their name, since they're efffectively out of business as an independent developer) came up with a great hybrid title idea set in mythical Greece, with elements of RPG, strategy and simulation. They sent me an alpha of it, which I've still got. It was truly interesting. And they actually got strong interest from one major publisher (that will remain anonymous, because they are still in business; and I've edited out the names of company individuals, too). They gave a demo of the product in-house, arousing the interest of a many programmers, several corporate types, etc. However, when the head of accounting walked into the meeting and heard what it was about, he flatly said, "If it's a game about Greek or Roman myths, it will fail. We won't do it." And that was it. No amount of argument could convince him otherwise. A very highly placed and respected games designer for this publisher started yelling that he personally would take on the title, code-named Pantheon, and stake his reputation with it. Nothing doing: if it was based on Greek or Roman myth, it was doomed to failure. And the game never got made.

This is the quality of thought a White Wolf title would probably face if presented at this point. Because two WW-based titles have failed, nothing would ever be possible. You see the steep, uphill battle a developer will face? We can only hope...

One of the questions the relative failure of Bloodlines leaves us with is whether there is a market for a strictly mature CRPG? Or, at the very least, one on as big of a budget at Bloodlines was. I'd imagine if there was another attempt, it would be made a bit more teenager-friendly, than Bloodlines was. I may very well be wrong, but it would strike me as something that needed to be considered.

You're very right, in my opinion. I was speaking a couple of months ago with the lead designer of the Divinity RPG series at Larian Studios. He has a very pessimistic frame of mind on future RPGs. He seemed to feel that either all RPGs would be action ones aimed at a pre-teen audience, or they'd be retro games with very limited functionality, such as those deisgned by Spiderweb Software. He really didn't think even his own team would be able to successfully produce many more titles for an adult audience, because the sales were elsewhere.

...While certainly no where in the league of BGII, KOTOR, or Morrowind, its done fairly well as a forum for a game that sold so badly. That's my impression anyway, and I've been following the forum fairly closely for a few months. You may have a completely diffeterent impression, though. Regardless, in my estimate, word of mouth doesn't equate to sales (particularly initial sales, which is what we're talking about). PST received great word of mouth, but still sold fairly porly in its first year (and it was a D&D title, which normally equates to sales). Meanwhile, games without substance (including RPGs) continue to sell well each year because they feature orcs and goblins. *shrug* I'm simply baffled by it all.

Correction: PS:T actually sold enough in the first six months to turn a slight profit. This I had from both a source at Interplay, and one of the BIS team involved in its development. Understandably, the latter could have been biased, but the first was pretty reputable. She said the problem was the overextending of Interplay, which meant all their titles had to be blockbusters. Simply doing "okay" wasn't enough. Hence, the cancellation of both PS:T 2, and TORN, followed by the layoff of the entire disgruntled BIS unit that had worked on those products.

In any case, I frankly hope you're right, and I hope I'm wrong. I hope your perception of the Bloodlines forum here at GB is correct, though I've read so many angry posts that I get a different impression. Frankly, Bloodlines was a far better game, in my opinion, than the KotoR series, in my opinion; but I'm afraid the corporate folks are going to draw the inevitable, simplistic conclusion that you can't do RPGs aimed at intelligent, mature players, and make them sell. Orcs are for the kiddies, they'll state, and kiddies buy games--despite all the evidence that adults play computer games, too. We'll just have to see.

john_jaxs · Post by **john_jaxs** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:40 am

Yeah I know I am going to sound like a liar to come back and say after I said I was done, but I really had comment on this one:

This is the information you've provided, thus far: 1) It's "public knowledge" that Valve sabotaged the marketing of Bloodlines, a few of us know this because we discussed it and decided it was accurate. 2) I don't know of a game that sold quadruple their previous receipts after the first 6 months' of sales, but I know one that did well after 2 months.

I provided you answer on the licensing of the source engine infomation you asked about and where you can find it, I provided on answer on how Troika's release was overshadowed by making them wait, so Troika could not release the game earlier and give it a fighting chance againest a giant and I told you where you can find it.

I don't remeber stating all of this, I think this was some of you:

Also why don't you show me where they had "a large marketing department and set up campaigns in considerable advance of release. They simply got their marketing strategy wrong."

I thought it was this:

Also why don't you show me where they had:

Also this post you made below to quote you "That's not the answer to the request I made of you, though, was it?" I'm willing to go look at any websites where you can show me some proof to the actually request I made of you, that would be "Dedicated to promoting Bloodlines, I don't know I never saw any large campaigns or any, why don't you show me where I can find this infomation in print? I answered two of your questions using actually proof that you can get from website like Gamespot, IGN, gamers, imdb and others." I understand that your busy doing stuff so just tell me the name of the website, I never asked on how big there department size was did I.

I began working with some of the regulars in Atari/Infogrames' US marketing and PR division, such as Erika Krishnamurti and Jenny Bendel, when they were still at other companies, and I was writing back in the mid-1980s. (Erika was a most capable PR manager for Activision for many years, for instance.) Later they joined or moved into A/I, and I continued the professional relationship, there. I found them (particularly Erika) friendly, helpful, and informative, in contrast to some marketing/PR people I could name at other companies over the years. Nowadays newer names have moved in and some old hands have moved out, but the A/I marketing team remains a large, well-defined group of people with headquarters in LA and (less well-known, because not advertised) in NY. Feel free to call them to determine the size of the department. As regards the campaign remarks I've made, I freely acknowledge those are simply our opinions, based on discussions with some of these marketing people and editors at a couple of magazines I write for. We could well be wrong, despite being game industry watchers for more than two decades. But note, I haven't made any claims of secret contracts between one company and another to sabotage a game's sales, which to be frank sounds like a bad anime plot.

since the audience for Half-Life2 isn't identical with the audience of Bloodlines, since they belong to vastly different genres.

They might belong to different genres, but here your assuming that those that like RPGs don't like FPSs, the audience to a maketing person might not seem identical, but if your person who likes different genres (which there are a alot more of then people who just like one) you got a enough money to buy one not the other, do you go for the game with the super hype that you heard of or do you go for a game you only know from reading HL2/Source engine statements? If your talking about statistics then thats fine, but you know statistics don't cut often in real life and there is always a error in those statistics.

Also can you show me these sales numbers or where I can get these sales numbers?

john_jaxs · Post by **john_jaxs** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:40 pm

I would just like to note that the reason Bloodlines was released at the same time as HL2 was because the Half Life 2 engine had already been leaked once, and it was done for preventative measures, to make sure the engine couldn't be, in some manner, ripped again. It has nothing to do with sabotaging Bloodlines.

That might have been one of the reasons (chances are you are right about that at least part of it), but it was not the only reason, if it was then alot of websites could be sued simply because they stated that Valve wanted there game released before Bloodlines, if that was the only reason then a week or a month would not make a difference as launching the game at the same time would not stop pirates from ripping the engine and it would not stop a inside leak, but it comes down to this any indie game would had it sales hurt by a game like HL2 considerably.