A note to everone here.
I had try to make him see reason, but I fail.
What would happem to him in the "real Ad&D" is that the DM sould find a way to kill him (sorry, there are several types of ways to kill someone, there is no need for a blade were poison [remeber BG I] will do the trick) no matter the level (50, there is no way a character sould get that high in a AD&D[and this in not Diablo] game) he would be.
I belive that this is going like that "paladin" topic from long ago, so Its best that we all stop, he will never understand what he is going is plain Wrong (BTW, someone ask about Robin Hood, The "Player Handbook" say he was a Theif).
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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Can't Get Them EVIL Thieves!
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Drakron Du´Dark
- Posts: 1597
- Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 11:00 pm
- Contact:
Uh, Drakron Du´Dark guy. This is a game. No need to get too serious. Light-heartedness is allowed. No insults have been issued and there is no reason why we can't have a fun discussion about this. Instead of making declarative statements about me like I'm a non-person or I'm something to hide under the rug, excercise your wit a little and enjoy the ride. Have fun! This place isn't about squashing everyone you don't agree with, is it?
And Lord knows, if my character ran into your character (neither of which are REAL), he'd only be the appropriate level because I won't cheat in a multiplayer game or in the pen-n-paper mode. And he would probably get along with you - unless you're evil
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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
And Lord knows, if my character ran into your character (neither of which are REAL), he'd only be the appropriate level because I won't cheat in a multiplayer game or in the pen-n-paper mode. And he would probably get along with you - unless you're evil
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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
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Drakron Du´Dark
- Posts: 1597
- Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 11:00 pm
- Contact:
No, Thank god that this place does not make fun (well a bit) of some questions about the way one play the game.
I posted that because there was a similar thing about Paladins that is just like this, it did because finally they stop posted in there.
You have your opinion about the that, I have mine. And we dont agree. I respect that but I will never see things your way, I have made my argument about what you are doing, and I dont want to go all over that again, I cannot stop people that are still making their points but you are not going to change your mind, so that is pointless.
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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche
I posted that because there was a similar thing about Paladins that is just like this, it did because finally they stop posted in there.
You have your opinion about the that, I have mine. And we dont agree. I respect that but I will never see things your way, I have made my argument about what you are doing, and I dont want to go all over that again, I cannot stop people that are still making their points but you are not going to change your mind, so that is pointless.
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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche
- Waterdeep city constrution.
- Shadowdale low level adventure module.
- Rashmare /Thay high level adventure module.
- Shadowdale low level adventure module.
- Rashmare /Thay high level adventure module.
And you know, honestly I wasn't trying to start a conversation about morality anyway (interesting though it is). I was actually complaining about how the game was designed. And it was only a little complaint. It certainly wasn't an evil complaint.
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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
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Drakron Du´Dark
- Posts: 1597
- Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 11:00 pm
- Contact:
Look, Faerûn is a place that is real well developed by the makers of Ad&D, somethings cannot be remove since that is part of the universe, like the Shadow thives, that group is important to that area, so you cannot destroy it.
I like also to say that the universe in similar to europe in the late 13th century, that types of things in there were common in those days in europe.
what you want to do is change the entire region, something that the makers of AD&D dont let to happen until they decide that is going to happens, you dont even get a shoot a the Shadow counsil or the counsil of the six, since the end of either group would change things too much for the expacion or BG III, I think that AD&D is going to incorporate the events on this game, so somethings cannot be done(like taking Amn).
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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche
I like also to say that the universe in similar to europe in the late 13th century, that types of things in there were common in those days in europe.
what you want to do is change the entire region, something that the makers of AD&D dont let to happen until they decide that is going to happens, you dont even get a shoot a the Shadow counsil or the counsil of the six, since the end of either group would change things too much for the expacion or BG III, I think that AD&D is going to incorporate the events on this game, so somethings cannot be done(like taking Amn).
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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche
- Waterdeep city constrution.
- Shadowdale low level adventure module.
- Rashmare /Thay high level adventure module.
- Shadowdale low level adventure module.
- Rashmare /Thay high level adventure module.
Chenjzen, I for one believe that you and I both have stated our points and no further belaboring is necessary. I'd like to put this debate to rest.
You and I disagree on priciple, and have both done what we could to show the other what our reasoning is. I did not mean to give you the idea that I thought that YOU were without reason in stating your position; I was speaking of the actions your character planned. On the contrary, I will tell you that you have gone above and beyond when detailing your thinking on your ideals. I compliment you for that.
I think the most ironic thing here is that our ideologies in this discussions are based on positions that are really not that far apart. Obviously, the difference lies in the definition of good and evil, and in Law versus chaos. We see these defined in subtly different manners. As a GM, I might have an issue with your play style if you were operating this PC in my game, and we'd have to come to a conclusion there. As a fellow player, I would have no problem with your motives.
My comparisons to real world values was an attempt to show in a hypothetical sense a comparison of the kinds of actions we were talking about (dealing with guilds, gangs and such). You did the same. Again, I do not imply that you would have the same view from one to the other.
You as well have given me much to respond to through this conversation. It reminds me of a political debate; on some things, people cannot be convinced to change their minds, neither you nor me. This is a discussion forum, and I find the discussion very enjoyable and thought provoking, even in disagreement.
I hope you have not taken anything I have said personally. I merely tried to state my point as best I could. I welcome the opportunity to engage in further discussions with you in the future on these pages.
Based on your posts here, I suspect that you are a very good role player, and you put a lot of thought into it. That is something many cannot say they do. Good for you.
And one question for all: what is this alignment test you guys refer to? I have never heard of it.
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"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
You and I disagree on priciple, and have both done what we could to show the other what our reasoning is. I did not mean to give you the idea that I thought that YOU were without reason in stating your position; I was speaking of the actions your character planned. On the contrary, I will tell you that you have gone above and beyond when detailing your thinking on your ideals. I compliment you for that.
I think the most ironic thing here is that our ideologies in this discussions are based on positions that are really not that far apart. Obviously, the difference lies in the definition of good and evil, and in Law versus chaos. We see these defined in subtly different manners. As a GM, I might have an issue with your play style if you were operating this PC in my game, and we'd have to come to a conclusion there. As a fellow player, I would have no problem with your motives.
My comparisons to real world values was an attempt to show in a hypothetical sense a comparison of the kinds of actions we were talking about (dealing with guilds, gangs and such). You did the same. Again, I do not imply that you would have the same view from one to the other.
You as well have given me much to respond to through this conversation. It reminds me of a political debate; on some things, people cannot be convinced to change their minds, neither you nor me. This is a discussion forum, and I find the discussion very enjoyable and thought provoking, even in disagreement.
I hope you have not taken anything I have said personally. I merely tried to state my point as best I could. I welcome the opportunity to engage in further discussions with you in the future on these pages.
Based on your posts here, I suspect that you are a very good role player, and you put a lot of thought into it. That is something many cannot say they do. Good for you.
And one question for all: what is this alignment test you guys refer to? I have never heard of it.
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"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
Here is a link to it..Originally posted by geh4th:
And one question for all: what is this alignment test you guys refer to? I have never heard of it.
[url="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20001222b"]http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20001222b[/url]
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"Boo says Weasel is the best"
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.
Sorry I know this isn't everyone's favourite topic but like geh4th i find the discussion intersting and compelling.
I humbly submit the possibility that Chenj'zen's character is akin to Vhailor, the Lawful Neutral "MercyKiller" from Planescape:Torment. In general in this thread I see a confusion of C-Z's vigiliantism with chaotic alignments. Remember, if an existing order is corrupt, destructive, and EVIL (just ask Minsc) Lawful Goods and even neutrals will seek its demise.
Indeed, C-Z adheres to a very strict code that values justice and punishment above all else. Vhailor, with the powers imbued unto him by JUSTICE, can permit no wrong to go unpunished. There is no room for mercy, for mercy weakens justice. Thus a thief, regardless of circumstances or consequences, becomes a handless beggar. The code is strict (law), predictable (law), and unforgiving (not good but not yet evil).
Chaotic good alignments, on the other hand, are the most tolerant of good alignments of "stealing", if one makes a distinction between "burglars" (i.e. sneak thieving, gone before anyone knows it,) and "robbers" (attacks on property by use of violence or threat of violence). A CG, independent, often living off the land, unfettered to a social order based on wealth, will not be so apalled if a comfortable nobleman loses a few coins to a sneaky kid.
But if that kid is EVIL, says C-Z, justice dictates some sort of punishment. Handless kid now? This is so far far into lawfulness that there is little room for expression of good or evil.
BTW Chenj'zen i should state i am addressing all in this thread and using your username to describe the character you presented us. If you ever play Planescape:Torment I'd be interested to know what alignment the game picks for you.
PS you must go kill Viconia she is EVIL make no mistake just cast Know Alignment on her if you don't believe me.
I humbly submit the possibility that Chenj'zen's character is akin to Vhailor, the Lawful Neutral "MercyKiller" from Planescape:Torment. In general in this thread I see a confusion of C-Z's vigiliantism with chaotic alignments. Remember, if an existing order is corrupt, destructive, and EVIL (just ask Minsc) Lawful Goods and even neutrals will seek its demise.
Indeed, C-Z adheres to a very strict code that values justice and punishment above all else. Vhailor, with the powers imbued unto him by JUSTICE, can permit no wrong to go unpunished. There is no room for mercy, for mercy weakens justice. Thus a thief, regardless of circumstances or consequences, becomes a handless beggar. The code is strict (law), predictable (law), and unforgiving (not good but not yet evil).
Chaotic good alignments, on the other hand, are the most tolerant of good alignments of "stealing", if one makes a distinction between "burglars" (i.e. sneak thieving, gone before anyone knows it,) and "robbers" (attacks on property by use of violence or threat of violence). A CG, independent, often living off the land, unfettered to a social order based on wealth, will not be so apalled if a comfortable nobleman loses a few coins to a sneaky kid.
But if that kid is EVIL, says C-Z, justice dictates some sort of punishment. Handless kid now? This is so far far into lawfulness that there is little room for expression of good or evil.
BTW Chenj'zen i should state i am addressing all in this thread and using your username to describe the character you presented us. If you ever play Planescape:Torment I'd be interested to know what alignment the game picks for you.
PS you must go kill Viconia she is EVIL make no mistake just cast Know Alignment on her if you don't believe me.
I think C-boy is just using an excuse to get loads of cool equipment. Why take sides and honour that agreement when you can be 'good', use the lesser of two 'evils' (thieves) for your own ends, then turn around and say "well your the bad guys now give me your elven chain mail." He also seems more than a a little peeved at the fact that no matter how much *he* cheats the game will always out-cheat him to sto phim achieving his wholly selfish agrandisement. 
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Yea, though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death,
I shall fear no evil... because I am the meanest m***** f***** in the valley.
[This message has been edited by Gruntboy (edited 02-01-2001).]
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Yea, though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death,
I shall fear no evil... because I am the meanest m***** f***** in the valley.
[This message has been edited by Gruntboy (edited 02-01-2001).]
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Gruntboy: I can easily see how you came to your conclusions. Honestly, though, it was the torture chambers that got to me. I was a little perturbed the game was forcing me to work with people I would normally be going after - but the torture chamber helped me make the decision to get Aran. Just can't abide 'em.
And this is going to make everyone smile, but when I cheat I'm still abiding by the rules of the game - in other words if I get in a fight, the rules still apply regarding who wins. Yes, I will have the most kick-butt equipment out there (or, what I think is the most kick-butt equipment out there) and a whole lot of experience points but I'm not playing with settings or hacking characters out of existence. Yes, I know it's a weak argument, but it is that notch below a programmer getting the last laugh just because he's the programmer.
Pigdog: Have you read "Hannibal" (Sequel to "Silence of the Lambs") yet? Lots of things about pigs in that novel I truly never knew before - this is not an insult by the way. Your method does appeal to my pragmatic nature, but I could never step in with the undead. As a matter of fact I tried it hoping that Bodhi wasn't really what I thought she was - but her vampire minions under the cemetary proved my suspicions - how can you work for people so evil they think of you as cattle?
Aegnor: I must gently remind you of my treatment of the thief in my castle. Though he could no longer serve with my troops, I let him go (without taking a hand) and paid for his wife's medicine. - I did play Planescape: Torment - MUCH better game than the first Baldur's Gate. I can't honestly remember what alignment it gave me - it's been a while since I played it.
geh4th: Thank you for your kind words, even in disagreement. And, I must admit that I do not think of DnD in the terms of a DM. I have always been a player. I misunderstood your reasons for real-life-to-fantasy comparisons and I too look forward to further discourse. You make it interesting and keep it friendly. I did not take anything personally, I was just a little worried that Drakron was taking me a bit too seriously - no besmirchment meant toward Drakron.
And I must say to you all (American Anthem starts up again in the background) that it is a rare message board where folks can disagree and not get crude and lewd. I commend all who have walked this thread with me regarding your manners. I say to you all I would gladly smite the undergarments of evil with any of you! Even you, Drakron Du' Dark. You have no need to fear. I will not tread upon any Faerûn other than the small, contained one placed upon my hardrive. If for some reason we do cross paths on that legendary firma, you can be assured I will not be powerful enough to take on the Establishment. At least, not for a while...
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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
And this is going to make everyone smile, but when I cheat I'm still abiding by the rules of the game - in other words if I get in a fight, the rules still apply regarding who wins. Yes, I will have the most kick-butt equipment out there (or, what I think is the most kick-butt equipment out there) and a whole lot of experience points but I'm not playing with settings or hacking characters out of existence. Yes, I know it's a weak argument, but it is that notch below a programmer getting the last laugh just because he's the programmer.
Pigdog: Have you read "Hannibal" (Sequel to "Silence of the Lambs") yet? Lots of things about pigs in that novel I truly never knew before - this is not an insult by the way. Your method does appeal to my pragmatic nature, but I could never step in with the undead. As a matter of fact I tried it hoping that Bodhi wasn't really what I thought she was - but her vampire minions under the cemetary proved my suspicions - how can you work for people so evil they think of you as cattle?
Aegnor: I must gently remind you of my treatment of the thief in my castle. Though he could no longer serve with my troops, I let him go (without taking a hand
) and paid for his wife's medicine. - I did play Planescape: Torment - MUCH better game than the first Baldur's Gate. I can't honestly remember what alignment it gave me - it's been a while since I played it.geh4th: Thank you for your kind words, even in disagreement. And, I must admit that I do not think of DnD in the terms of a DM. I have always been a player. I misunderstood your reasons for real-life-to-fantasy comparisons and I too look forward to further discourse. You make it interesting and keep it friendly. I did not take anything personally, I was just a little worried that Drakron was taking me a bit too seriously - no besmirchment meant toward Drakron.
And I must say to you all (American Anthem starts up again in the background) that it is a rare message board where folks can disagree and not get crude and lewd. I commend all who have walked this thread with me regarding your manners. I say to you all I would gladly smite the undergarments of evil with any of you! Even you, Drakron Du' Dark. You have no need to fear. I will not tread upon any Faerûn other than the small, contained one placed upon my hardrive. If for some reason we do cross paths on that legendary firma, you can be assured I will not be powerful enough to take on the Establishment. At least, not for a while...
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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
Having thought it impossible, I was very surprised when my Elf F/M/T who had taken the thief stronghold was allowed to side with Bohdi (Thief characters usually do not get the choice). So for the sake of novelty I went with Bohdi and have been ridding Ankhetl of the shadow thieves. Soon the only guild in town will be mine!
So for on-topic purposes this is how you whack the evil thieves and obviously the management of your own guild can be good/evil/neutral what-ever. - Curdis
So for on-topic purposes this is how you whack the evil thieves and obviously the management of your own guild can be good/evil/neutral what-ever. - Curdis
The warlord sig of 's' - word
Making a reappearance for those who have a sig even longer
[quote="Dilbert]That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard[/quote]
[quote=Waverly]You all suck donkeys[/quote]
[quote={deleted after legal threats}]I am so not a drama queen![/quote"]
:mischief:
:devil:
Repent
For
Making a reappearance for those who have a sig even longer
[quote="Dilbert]That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard[/quote]
[quote=Waverly]You all suck donkeys[/quote]
[quote={deleted after legal threats}]I am so not a drama queen![/quote"]
:mischief:
:devil:
Repent
For
I appreciate the subtlety, but I must state once again there's no way I could stomach hangin' with the Night Crowd.
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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
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And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
And my time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on the splinters.
But as Chaotic good, you can indeed side with them to save Imoen so that you can achieve you goal and getting some Good out of the Evil attractively voiced bizkit before doing the little vamp girl in.
It's my patented make the evil people do good before they die (tm) technique.
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Cultured Swine of Doom
It's my patented make the evil people do good before they die (tm) technique.
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Cultured Swine of Doom
Cultured Swine of Doom
And killing is *not* good. Certainly not in cold blood.Originally posted by Chenjzen:
First things first. Thieves EVIL. Me, GOOD. Chaotic Good. I don't give a hoot for order. I want to kill bad guys.
As a chaotic good guy, I would not understand how a town with thieves would be good. A town WITHOUT thieves would be better.
Now that sounds like a lawful attitude to me. Hardly chaotic, which favours freedom, lack of restrictions, law and order.
So your Chaotic Good character is bothered with someone's label or job title, more than what they as an individual are capable of and achieve? Now that's another very lawful outlook. Looks like you got your alignments muddled.Heck, they don't mind making your good characters consort with thieves in THIS game (leaves sour taste in mouth).
Phil
Safe for law-abiding = Lawful.Originally posted by Chenjzen:
Er, do you mean I should let the scoundrels get away with taking hard-working folks' money - just out of the fear of "something unknown" taking their place?..<cut>.. I will make the town of Athkatla safe for the law-abiding citizen and the innocent.
Pre-emptive strikes against evil = Chaotic
Pre-emptive strikes against members of a guild, because you don't like the name of that guild or some of the activities that it collectively undertakes <> Good (Neutral maybe)
Again, blaming individuals for the acts that their society undertakes, well, geez, sounds more lawful to me.
Phil
Excellent summary of Chaotic Neutral.Originally posted by Chenjzen:
Nice little ruckus raised. How perfectly Chaotic. My view of Chaotic Good is someone who is willing to do whatever it takes spread his version of good across the land. He/she is a strong individualist who is confident in their views of morality - they don't need society necessarily to tell them what is "legal" and "not legal". If this means circumventing government and laws, so be it. If this means using government and laws, so be it. If this means using evil folks so that they are accomplishing good things, so be it. The idea is that the agenda of "good" is pushed.
Ooh, Lawful Neutral now.
Chenjzen would be perfectly happy with wacking the Council of Six (he believes that the hard working folks of the country should know who the HECK is their leaders) and sitting himself upon the throne of power as a benevolent dictator, spreading his good rules and laws across the country - laws that would support strong individialism and free trade - by force if necessary.
Well, George W. Bush extreme Lawful Good now.All the talk about disrupting order and structure misses the point. It's a MORAL question. If some dude is willing to take from other folks - their money, their lives, their freedom, whatever - then that dude needs to be taken down. He's wrong (I would never take anything from the honest folks) and I'm right. WOW, maybe all those "evil" merchants won't have to pay protection money any more - they can lower their prices and the poor can get more for their buck.
And hey, I'm not without mercy. When I played the ruler of the Keep, I let the thief go who was robbing to get medicine for his wife. I even paid for the medicines.
Ah, Neutral Good.
But folks who are obviously steeped in evil like the Shadow Thieves (remember I mentioned torture chambers, etc.) are not who I would put in the "rehabilitation" category. They deserve to be swimming in that fiery lake right along side Irenicus (he he).
Back to that Lawful Neutral. Is anyone else enjoying this rollercoaster ride?
Phil
Excellent! A new one - Lawful Evil!Originally posted by Chenjzen:
AND for geh4th. The punks are wearing the colors, they pay the price. They know what they're getting into, it's not like they're joining a men's golf club - they're a gang.
I'm no different from any other citzen who wants to eradicate the gangs - except I'm empowered to do so, and the law doesn't have the resouces to track down vigilantes (adventurers) in the DnD setting like in real life - so I'm more free to do so.
Ever heard of the Responsibility of Power. Prime example was seen in the film Schindlers List. The secret of real power is having the will and means to do something, but choosing not to. Little sidetrack there....
No, murder implies that you are killing someone outside of the bounds of 'lawfully defined killing'. In English law, murder has two elements:Pre-meditated murder? Murder implies that the folks killed are innocent of any wrongdoing. The Shadow Dudes are proudly displaying their allegience to an evil group - they are not innocent. If the results are no more torture chambers, innocent people getting robbed and pushed around, and total disregard for the fellow brother just trying to make it, then that's fine by me.
1. Physical - killing someone
2. Mental - Intent to kill.
That's it. There's no get out clause "But that person was really naughty and deserved to die. And he belonged to a skinhead gang."
So, yes, murder generally is chaotic. But depriving someone of life is generally not a good act. Chaotic Good is when you kill the Guildmaster because you know of a specific, definite wrong that you are avenging. Killing him because he's a nasty guy, that's Evil.
IIRC, Robin Hood never put a hit out on the Sherriff of Nottingham - yet the Sherriff did lots of bad things, and with Robin's skill he could easily have killed him several times over.
Robin Hood is an excellent Chaotic Good archetype. Compare your behaviour with his. And learn
Phil