If your favorite class character retired and became a mentor who taught young, inexperienced players all the tips and tricks of the trade, just exactly what would s/he teach them?
I need some input from experienced and expert players on tactics and strategy - just how to get the most out of your character's class. Input will become part of the curriculum at the University of Tirovna, in the module The New Wilderness.
There's plenty of stuff out there on distributing your ability points and which feats and skills to pump up... but I'm looking for the more subjective stuff. Clerics, who in your party do you heal first? How long do you wait? Rangers, when do you send your animal companion to do the dirty work and when do you go in yourself? Anybody, how do you decide when to use ranged weapons? When to run away? This is the kind of wisdom I'm asking you expert class players to share.
A little background:
When I first started building my module over a year ago, I was enchanted with those "level-up" mods where you could prep a character for Local Vault mods by walking up to an NPC who would ask you "How many levels fdo you want?" and bling! Although it's a nice idea to be able to walk into a "local character" mod ready to go to the more interesting places without getting killed, that seemed a little TOO easy. As a veteran Everquest I player ( and D&D player from back in the "Men and Magic" days), I was also frustrated by most player's apparent lack of knowledge or concern with party play... they didn't know how to utilize the group's healers or casters or rogues... I see some of you nodding. Why not, I reasoned, TEACH them something about this stuff and reward them by levelling them up rapidly if they actually bothered to learn something?
Thus was born the concept of the University of Tirovna. Kind of like an expanded Hogwart's, if you will. So I built the campus facilities, split up each basic class into six divisions (novices, then you move up in Grades and get all your XP and goodies at level 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20), designed little uniforms for each Grade of Each class, and otherwise totally integrated the University into the mod.
To make a long story short, the University is all set up, but the actual COURSES need to be developed. What I'm looking for is just enough knowledge to fit into a "Book" or "Lecture" and 6-8 questions to serve as a "Test" by which the player will pass the course. I will even write the questions.
So, expert players, how about it? Any concepts you've always wished those newbs would get through their thick little skulls? Or do you just like showing off how smart you are? Well this is a way to have all that good stuff inside your head integrated into the GAME somewhere...
Thanks in advance for your help!
Expert Class Tactics wanted
I think it would be best for you to ask this question on a true pvp arena like NWtactics. The way you play the game also depends very much on the server you are on. Most people I know choose to play CTF now, as opposed to true team pvp.
From my experience, the choice of party is probably the most important part. I usually enjoy have Palemaster and Dragons as they are basically invulnerable to Rogues as well as being possibly the best tanks in the game.
There should be very few instances where ranged weaponry is favoured over spells (this can change very much depending on the spell selection availible). Animal companions are also too fragile (as are familiars) for any real work. Running away should only be (for tanks) when you are low on health (you of course run to your nearest Cleric), and for casters always. Sometimes if may be wise to run away from a highly buffed individual of you have no dispels left.
And the most important thing, STOP RUNNING THROUGH BLADE BARRIERS FFS! They are possible to dispel after all.
From my experience, the choice of party is probably the most important part. I usually enjoy have Palemaster and Dragons as they are basically invulnerable to Rogues as well as being possibly the best tanks in the game.
There should be very few instances where ranged weaponry is favoured over spells (this can change very much depending on the spell selection availible). Animal companions are also too fragile (as are familiars) for any real work. Running away should only be (for tanks) when you are low on health (you of course run to your nearest Cleric), and for casters always. Sometimes if may be wise to run away from a highly buffed individual of you have no dispels left.
And the most important thing, STOP RUNNING THROUGH BLADE BARRIERS FFS! They are possible to dispel after all.
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
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Fiberfar
- Posts: 4196
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[QUOTE=Noober]And the most important thing, STOP RUNNING THROUGH BLADE BARRIERS FFS! They are possible to dispel after all.[/QUOTE]
have they fixed the gust of wind bug? It was either that or another spell that could remove the bladebarrier.
have they fixed the gust of wind bug? It was either that or another spell that could remove the bladebarrier.
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]ONLY RETARDED PEOPLE WRITE WITH CAPS ON. Good thing I press shift 
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Bah! Bunch of lamers! Ye need the lesson of the true powergamer: Play mages, name them Koffi Annan, and only use non-intervention spells! Buwahahahahah![/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Bah! Bunch of lamers! Ye need the lesson of the true powergamer: Play mages, name them Koffi Annan, and only use non-intervention spells! Buwahahahahah![/QUOTE]
Here's a guy that should defenately teach the Rogue courses:
http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/ ... _rogue.txt
http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/ ... _rogue.txt
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Fiberfar
- Posts: 4196
- Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:07 pm
- Location: Looking down from ethereal skies
- Contact:
[QUOTE=Mirk]Here's a guy that should defenately teach the Rogue courses:
http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/ ... _rogue.txt[/QUOTE]
The link don't work
http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/ ... _rogue.txt[/QUOTE]
The link don't work
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]ONLY RETARDED PEOPLE WRITE WITH CAPS ON. Good thing I press shift [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Bah! Bunch of lamers! Ye need the lesson of the true powergamer: Play mages, name them Koffi Annan, and only use non-intervention spells! Buwahahahahah![/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Bah! Bunch of lamers! Ye need the lesson of the true powergamer: Play mages, name them Koffi Annan, and only use non-intervention spells! Buwahahahahah![/QUOTE]
Mage tactics / rules.
1. know thyself. have a long term plan for spell development.
ie choose feats & spells that work well together. it's usually best if you stick to only a few spell schools where you also have greater spell foci.
2. have a backup plan, diversity.
example: it's easy to fall into the fire trap, most levels have a good fire spell, otoh when you run into fire resistant creatures it could mean big trouble. having a few scintilating spheres and cone's o' cold could save your bacon.
2b. try and master several different effects.
example most damage spells are very similar in game terms and they account for a large percentage of the spells in the game. only minor details like target, area & element of damage change.
otoh having a insta kill effects or charm / stun / hold. could be the real difference maker. this also allows you to hit an enemies weak spot.
3. keep buffs to a minimum. every buff spell is one less attack spell, on top of that you are one disjunction away from losing all of them anyway. Improved invisibility, stoneskin and protection from evil may be all you need anyway.
4. watch your reserves, unlike fighting classes every time you attack you get weaker, until you've either rested or depleated your spells. economy of force / don't use fod when magic missle would suffice. spells like flame weapon will deal much more damage over the long run than most other spells in your book.
5. learn every spell you can. (this is really your only advantage over sorc's) sooner or later the lesser used spells can be the anwser you need to pull yourself out of a jam.
6. be carefull w/ summons & familliars, don't use them unless you must.
7. know that some spells just suck. diversity of damage aside ice storm will never do the stort of damage a fireball can do. and of course a silenced fireball or stilled for that matter can replace 4th level spells. likewise empowered fireballs (or scintilating spheres) outclass cone of cold / firebrand in terms of raw damage.
8. know how to attack an opponent, trying to chisel away at a barb's hit points, or a clerics will saves is useless. also watch for immunities that can be dispelled or avoided.
9. building the perfect mage? consider a gnome, racial benefits to mage skills, con boost. small stature. in the long run that con boost can matter more than the elf's dex, esp considering the elf's con penalty. a mage will earn most of their hitpoints through constitution & toughness. as a side issue - consider taking toughness as a feat, 1 extra hit point per level is pretty decent when you've a d4 hit die.
10. your prestige classes are a trap. yes arcane archer can be potent, pale masters have an impressive list of special abilities. (dragon disciples too for the sorc's) they aren't true mage classes and shouldn't be thought of as such. they don't provide much benefit in terms of pure arcane power, further if multi classing is your plan, there may be other classes that mix better w/o having to take 10 levels to get the full benefit.
1. know thyself. have a long term plan for spell development.
ie choose feats & spells that work well together. it's usually best if you stick to only a few spell schools where you also have greater spell foci.
2. have a backup plan, diversity.
example: it's easy to fall into the fire trap, most levels have a good fire spell, otoh when you run into fire resistant creatures it could mean big trouble. having a few scintilating spheres and cone's o' cold could save your bacon.
2b. try and master several different effects.
example most damage spells are very similar in game terms and they account for a large percentage of the spells in the game. only minor details like target, area & element of damage change.
otoh having a insta kill effects or charm / stun / hold. could be the real difference maker. this also allows you to hit an enemies weak spot.
3. keep buffs to a minimum. every buff spell is one less attack spell, on top of that you are one disjunction away from losing all of them anyway. Improved invisibility, stoneskin and protection from evil may be all you need anyway.
4. watch your reserves, unlike fighting classes every time you attack you get weaker, until you've either rested or depleated your spells. economy of force / don't use fod when magic missle would suffice. spells like flame weapon will deal much more damage over the long run than most other spells in your book.
5. learn every spell you can. (this is really your only advantage over sorc's) sooner or later the lesser used spells can be the anwser you need to pull yourself out of a jam.
6. be carefull w/ summons & familliars, don't use them unless you must.
7. know that some spells just suck. diversity of damage aside ice storm will never do the stort of damage a fireball can do. and of course a silenced fireball or stilled for that matter can replace 4th level spells. likewise empowered fireballs (or scintilating spheres) outclass cone of cold / firebrand in terms of raw damage.
8. know how to attack an opponent, trying to chisel away at a barb's hit points, or a clerics will saves is useless. also watch for immunities that can be dispelled or avoided.
9. building the perfect mage? consider a gnome, racial benefits to mage skills, con boost. small stature. in the long run that con boost can matter more than the elf's dex, esp considering the elf's con penalty. a mage will earn most of their hitpoints through constitution & toughness. as a side issue - consider taking toughness as a feat, 1 extra hit point per level is pretty decent when you've a d4 hit die.
10. your prestige classes are a trap. yes arcane archer can be potent, pale masters have an impressive list of special abilities. (dragon disciples too for the sorc's) they aren't true mage classes and shouldn't be thought of as such. they don't provide much benefit in terms of pure arcane power, further if multi classing is your plan, there may be other classes that mix better w/o having to take 10 levels to get the full benefit.
"all around you is tinder for the gods"
Just some extenstion to the above:
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]best if you stick to only a few spell schools where you also have greater spell foci[/quote]
Or even better, pick spells that don't have saves! This used to be owned Firebrand and Isaac's, but no more .
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]otoh when you run into fire resistant creatures it could mean big trouble. having a few scintilating spheres and cone's o' cold could save your bacon.[/quote]
Try also to get non-element spells like Horrid Wilting as they are much more rarely resisted.
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]keep buffs to a minimum. every buff spell is one less attack spell, on top of that you are one disjunction away from losing all of them anyway. Improved invisibility, stoneskin and protection from evil may be all you need anyway.[/quote]
*cough* Spell Sequencer *cough*. Though I might disagree, you points do hold some merit. Some exceptional spells that should also be noted: Greater Sanctuary (can't be detected), Epic Warding (for obvious reasons), Energy Buffer (should once again be obvious) and Shadow Shield (don't you just hate rolling a 1).
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]spells like flame weapon will deal much more damage over the long run than most other spells in your book[/quote]
Remember that you still have to hit, so it might be better to have summons or Tenser's Transformation.
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]learn every spell you can. (this is really your only advantage over sorc's) sooner or later the lesser used spells can be the anwser you need to pull yourself out of a jam[/quote]
Remember Sorc's > Wizards . The only real advantage of Wizards is in buffing. Shadow spells might be worth taking if you are a Sorc (especially if the server follows true DND rules).
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]6. be carefull w/ summons & familliars, don't use them unless you must. [/quote]
Why?
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]7. know that some spells just suck. diversity of damage aside ice storm will never do the stort of damage a fireball can do. and of course a silenced fireball or stilled for that matter can replace 4th level spells. likewise empowered fireballs (or scintilating spheres) outclass cone of cold / firebrand in terms of raw damage.[/quote]
Are you quite sure that Fireball > Cone of Cold/Firebrand? Last time I checked 10d6 was the Fireball damage, and 15d6 was Firebrand/Cone. An empowered Fireball still only offers 15d6.
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]best if you stick to only a few spell schools where you also have greater spell foci[/quote]
Or even better, pick spells that don't have saves! This used to be owned Firebrand and Isaac's, but no more
.[QUOTE=koz-ivan]otoh when you run into fire resistant creatures it could mean big trouble. having a few scintilating spheres and cone's o' cold could save your bacon.[/quote]
Try also to get non-element spells like Horrid Wilting as they are much more rarely resisted.
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]keep buffs to a minimum. every buff spell is one less attack spell, on top of that you are one disjunction away from losing all of them anyway. Improved invisibility, stoneskin and protection from evil may be all you need anyway.[/quote]
*cough* Spell Sequencer *cough*. Though I might disagree, you points do hold some merit. Some exceptional spells that should also be noted: Greater Sanctuary (can't be detected), Epic Warding (for obvious reasons), Energy Buffer (should once again be obvious) and Shadow Shield (don't you just hate rolling a 1).
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]spells like flame weapon will deal much more damage over the long run than most other spells in your book[/quote]
Remember that you still have to hit, so it might be better to have summons or Tenser's Transformation.
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]learn every spell you can. (this is really your only advantage over sorc's) sooner or later the lesser used spells can be the anwser you need to pull yourself out of a jam[/quote]
Remember Sorc's > Wizards
. The only real advantage of Wizards is in buffing. Shadow spells might be worth taking if you are a Sorc (especially if the server follows true DND rules).[QUOTE=koz-ivan]6. be carefull w/ summons & familliars, don't use them unless you must. [/quote]
Why?
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]7. know that some spells just suck. diversity of damage aside ice storm will never do the stort of damage a fireball can do. and of course a silenced fireball or stilled for that matter can replace 4th level spells. likewise empowered fireballs (or scintilating spheres) outclass cone of cold / firebrand in terms of raw damage.[/quote]
Are you quite sure that Fireball > Cone of Cold/Firebrand? Last time I checked 10d6 was the Fireball damage, and 15d6 was Firebrand/Cone. An empowered Fireball still only offers 15d6.
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
good stuff noober!
(and you caught me in a few spots where i didn't fully explain my points)
flame weapon: i use this a lot vs fodder type creatures doors & chests to be bashed ect ect, so the mages ab doesn't need to be exceptional. conversely if the mage finds itself in a melee situation, they can buff themselves silly and fight their way out w/ flame weapon dealing most of the damage. it's often a tactic of last resort, and somewhat more effective early when you don't have a lot of spells to throw around.
sorc's & wizards i don't really want to get into this, in the long run i agree w/ you. sorcs will be better, otoh for the first 20 levels or so wizards do get some free feats and they gain access to higher level spells sooner.
summons / familliars, xp penalty. though the pixie is rather usefull outside of combat.
empowered fireball vs cone of cold vs firebrand yes the raw damage is 15 d6 either way. but firebrand does have a max # of targets and the area of an empowered fireball is larger than a cone of cold. (and i find fireballs much easier to aim instead of cones) when i said raw damage i should of said effective damage or something like that. ie you can hit more targets w/ an empowered fireball. but from a techinal standpoint you are correct. and i should of noted, firebrand is one of the better spells for dealing damage to hostiles while not hitting allies / neutrals.
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and i though of another one that you reminded me of w/ shadow shield.
11. read the fine print. some spells have a 2nd or 3rd effect - case in point shadow shield - ac bonus is nice, damage reduction also very good, then suddenly "immunity to death and negative energy effects" wow. sometimes the best parts aren't even printed in the manuals you need to read the in game versions. protection from alignment - a/c boost, save boost, "immunity to mind effecting spells". oh and it only lasts for an hour / level.
(and you caught me in a few spots where i didn't fully explain my points)
flame weapon: i use this a lot vs fodder type creatures doors & chests to be bashed ect ect, so the mages ab doesn't need to be exceptional. conversely if the mage finds itself in a melee situation, they can buff themselves silly and fight their way out w/ flame weapon dealing most of the damage. it's often a tactic of last resort, and somewhat more effective early when you don't have a lot of spells to throw around.
sorc's & wizards i don't really want to get into this, in the long run i agree w/ you. sorcs will be better, otoh for the first 20 levels or so wizards do get some free feats and they gain access to higher level spells sooner.
summons / familliars, xp penalty. though the pixie is rather usefull outside of combat.
empowered fireball vs cone of cold vs firebrand yes the raw damage is 15 d6 either way. but firebrand does have a max # of targets and the area of an empowered fireball is larger than a cone of cold. (and i find fireballs much easier to aim instead of cones) when i said raw damage i should of said effective damage or something like that. ie you can hit more targets w/ an empowered fireball. but from a techinal standpoint you are correct. and i should of noted, firebrand is one of the better spells for dealing damage to hostiles while not hitting allies / neutrals.
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and i though of another one that you reminded me of w/ shadow shield.
11. read the fine print. some spells have a 2nd or 3rd effect - case in point shadow shield - ac bonus is nice, damage reduction also very good, then suddenly "immunity to death and negative energy effects" wow. sometimes the best parts aren't even printed in the manuals you need to read the in game versions. protection from alignment - a/c boost, save boost, "immunity to mind effecting spells". oh and it only lasts for an hour / level.
"all around you is tinder for the gods"
changing gears...
Warrior keys... (aplies mostly to fighters, but covers all traditional melee classes)
1. your will saves stink. have a plan to deal with this, be it through party members, potions, items, tactics or build. if you are going to be on your own you may want to consider pally / blackguard levels and cha or cot levels.
1b. your reflex saves may not be much better - but you should have the hitpoints to absorb most reflex spells.
2. have a plan - esp if you are going for a weapon master w/ devastating critical. decisions you make early will impact what you can do late in the game.
3. choose a weapon carefully (even more carefully for WM) once you start spending your feats on specific weapons you will want to make certain that's the primary weapon you want.
4. backups. try to keep a backup weapon setup ready.
example - a high strength scythe master may from time to time still need to deal blunt damage or face a crit immune enemy. having a heavy flail or warhammer + shield ready to go is key. further having a good shield from time to time may be the protection you need. also - elemental bonus damage could make a "lesser" weapon more effective.
5. watch the numbers carefully - is your damage getting soaked? can you hit easily? are you getting hit easily? depending on how the numbers are turning you may want to use expertise or power attack. - or retreat and try a different set up.
6. ranged combat. for the most part i avoid this, but from time to time the battlefields will dictate a ranged attack, best to have a ranged weapon + decent ammo ready to go.
7. don't fall in love w/ skills ftrs tend to have the worst skill selection in the game, however you can do a lot worse then then throwing some points into heal and or tumble. even if it costs you a little disipline. (also your party will come into play here, you may not need skills like lore or the various spot search skills.)
8. knockdown may be your only line of defense vs mages, they can't cast from their backs, and disipline isn't always their strong suit.
9. style - sword & shield vs dual wield vs big weapons. each will have it's benefits and drawbacks know what is right for your build in your situation. imho dual wield is feat & stat intensive and may not be suitable for some builds. also see #4 above - don't be afraid of switching out your preferred style if you need more protection or damage per hit. (exception being don't try to dual wield if you don't have the feats or items that grant them)
10. multiclassing - ftrs benefit from most other classes, trouble is you are limited to 3 classes, and if one is already weapon master... make sure your multi is what is right for you + your build.
otoh maybe you don't want to start as a fighter, a paladin / cot mix has most of the benefits of a pure fighter with a pocketfull of special abilities.
11. cleave. i can't say enough good things about having this feat as early as possible. more attacks = more total damage. i'm less a fan of greater cleave and think it can wait until you need it as a pre-req.
Warrior keys... (aplies mostly to fighters, but covers all traditional melee classes)
1. your will saves stink. have a plan to deal with this, be it through party members, potions, items, tactics or build. if you are going to be on your own you may want to consider pally / blackguard levels and cha or cot levels.
1b. your reflex saves may not be much better - but you should have the hitpoints to absorb most reflex spells.
2. have a plan - esp if you are going for a weapon master w/ devastating critical. decisions you make early will impact what you can do late in the game.
3. choose a weapon carefully (even more carefully for WM) once you start spending your feats on specific weapons you will want to make certain that's the primary weapon you want.
4. backups. try to keep a backup weapon setup ready.
example - a high strength scythe master may from time to time still need to deal blunt damage or face a crit immune enemy. having a heavy flail or warhammer + shield ready to go is key. further having a good shield from time to time may be the protection you need. also - elemental bonus damage could make a "lesser" weapon more effective.
5. watch the numbers carefully - is your damage getting soaked? can you hit easily? are you getting hit easily? depending on how the numbers are turning you may want to use expertise or power attack. - or retreat and try a different set up.
6. ranged combat. for the most part i avoid this, but from time to time the battlefields will dictate a ranged attack, best to have a ranged weapon + decent ammo ready to go.
7. don't fall in love w/ skills ftrs tend to have the worst skill selection in the game, however you can do a lot worse then then throwing some points into heal and or tumble. even if it costs you a little disipline. (also your party will come into play here, you may not need skills like lore or the various spot search skills.)
8. knockdown may be your only line of defense vs mages, they can't cast from their backs, and disipline isn't always their strong suit.
9. style - sword & shield vs dual wield vs big weapons. each will have it's benefits and drawbacks know what is right for your build in your situation. imho dual wield is feat & stat intensive and may not be suitable for some builds. also see #4 above - don't be afraid of switching out your preferred style if you need more protection or damage per hit. (exception being don't try to dual wield if you don't have the feats or items that grant them)
10. multiclassing - ftrs benefit from most other classes, trouble is you are limited to 3 classes, and if one is already weapon master... make sure your multi is what is right for you + your build.
otoh maybe you don't want to start as a fighter, a paladin / cot mix has most of the benefits of a pure fighter with a pocketfull of special abilities.
11. cleave. i can't say enough good things about having this feat as early as possible. more attacks = more total damage. i'm less a fan of greater cleave and think it can wait until you need it as a pre-req.
"all around you is tinder for the gods"
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]
empowered fireball vs cone of cold vs firebrand yes the raw damage is 15 d6 either way. but firebrand does have a max # of targets and the area of an empowered fireball is larger than a cone of cold. (and i find fireballs much easier to aim instead of cones) when i said raw damage i should of said effective damage or something like that. ie you can hit more targets w/ an empowered fireball. but from a techinal standpoint you are correct. and i should of noted, firebrand is one of the better spells for dealing damage to hostiles while not hitting allies / neutrals.
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[/QUOTE]
I'd say use the same school where possible - as you can do with fireball, firebrand, ice storm and many others.
but mostly I want to note that you now refer to cone of cold (which truly sucks, if only for the directional aspect) where you initially said ice storm.
Ice storm is so far superior to fireball that I simply stopped using fireball until I ran out of other spells and wasn't ready to rest. If the ice doesn't do much damage the bludgeoning rocks do. And far more foes are fire resistant than ice resistant. And the saves are distinctly different as well - against fireball.
Firebrand and ice storm were my wiz/rogue's best methods of dealing with foes. By far. firebrand's targets are indeed limited but it's usually pretty easy to hit more than you would with a fireball in the same room.
Oh and an empowered ice storm is the nuts.
empowered fireball vs cone of cold vs firebrand yes the raw damage is 15 d6 either way. but firebrand does have a max # of targets and the area of an empowered fireball is larger than a cone of cold. (and i find fireballs much easier to aim instead of cones) when i said raw damage i should of said effective damage or something like that. ie you can hit more targets w/ an empowered fireball. but from a techinal standpoint you are correct. and i should of noted, firebrand is one of the better spells for dealing damage to hostiles while not hitting allies / neutrals.
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[/QUOTE]
I'd say use the same school where possible - as you can do with fireball, firebrand, ice storm and many others.
but mostly I want to note that you now refer to cone of cold (which truly sucks, if only for the directional aspect) where you initially said ice storm.
Ice storm is so far superior to fireball that I simply stopped using fireball until I ran out of other spells and wasn't ready to rest. If the ice doesn't do much damage the bludgeoning rocks do. And far more foes are fire resistant than ice resistant. And the saves are distinctly different as well - against fireball.
Firebrand and ice storm were my wiz/rogue's best methods of dealing with foes. By far. firebrand's targets are indeed limited but it's usually pretty easy to hit more than you would with a fireball in the same room.
Oh and an empowered ice storm is the nuts.
I cant help but feel sad when i see powergaming like this, it just destroys the whole concept of a role-playing game.
The worst are all of you who says that "a" is best, "b" sucks, and that there is no point in using "c" at all, while you constantly bring in arguments about how it won't work in pvp.
D&D is not a pvp game, Neverwinter Nights is not a pvp game, and neither was ever intended to be one. I do realize that this is a thread about tactics, and there is nothing wrong with that since tactics is and have always been important in D&D and D&D-based games, but when people say such things as Wizards being useless since Sorcerer's are much better, it just makes me sad....feel's like this new generation of gamers are destroying games meant for roleplaying with their power-gaming and meta-game thinking. Oh well.
The worst are all of you who says that "a" is best, "b" sucks, and that there is no point in using "c" at all, while you constantly bring in arguments about how it won't work in pvp.
D&D is not a pvp game, Neverwinter Nights is not a pvp game, and neither was ever intended to be one. I do realize that this is a thread about tactics, and there is nothing wrong with that since tactics is and have always been important in D&D and D&D-based games, but when people say such things as Wizards being useless since Sorcerer's are much better, it just makes me sad....feel's like this new generation of gamers are destroying games meant for roleplaying with their power-gaming and meta-game thinking. Oh well.
[QUOTE=restless] I do realize that this is a thread about tactics, and there is nothing wrong with that since tactics is and have always been important in D&D and D&D-based games, but when people say such things as Wizards being useless since Sorcerer's are much better, it just makes me sad....feel's like this new generation of gamers are destroying games meant for roleplaying with their power-gaming and meta-game thinking. Oh well.[/QUOTE]
Well, I am from the old school of D & D as well, where playing as a team whose different members all made unique and necessary contributions to the success of the mission, THINKING your way out of situations, and solving puzzles, were the bread and butter of the game. Just as enjoyable, and maybe even more so, than winning battles or acquiring the next must-have magic item.
That's how this post originated in the first place.
When I first opened my module to the public, I made it Local Vault because I enjoyed playing Local Vault myself, bringing in a developed character instead of taking all the time to level up a new one in each server I wanted to give a try.
I noticed that the vast majority of players who showed up were what I thought of as "Accountants" - all they ever talked about was numbers, numbers, numbers.. AB this and AC that and Con bonus and this penalty and blah, blah, blah. And they NEVER left the Arena cuz all they ever wanted to do was PvP to settle arguments similar to what you see in this thread. Since I already had over 80 areas at the time involving hundreds of hours of work, needless to say I was frustrated that even though I had a decent turnout of players every night, people never bothered exploring what was there.
And frankly, when they did, they wiped up every monster I had ever created. People are so into this stuff that if you let them bring in any character build they want (even with levels restricted to 20, item level restrictions and legal characters... as I had), it's very difficult to design a monster capable of killing them.
So in part, the philosophy of my mod became trying to bring back the old school feel of the game. I switched to Server Vault. I put in LOTS more puzzles and traps. I came up with the concept of the University.
All that being said, however, I don't think it's appropriate to say that power gamers and PvPers are "ruining" RPGs. If that's what they enjoy, who are we to say they can't play the game however they want? In fact, maybe the only way they could be expected to pick up on the subtleties of traditional dungeon crawling is by grouping up with more experienced old-school players and learning from the school of hard knocks.
Or maybe not. I am working very hard as a builder and DM to create a server where power gamers are welcome. Indeed, they are a useful addition to the gaming party. Within the framework of roleplaying and the story, it may even be necessary at some point for some players to fight against others. But no character will ever survive for long by stats alone.
Careful plotting, area and encounter design have always been necessary in the successful interactive fantasy roleplaying experience, and the University is my attempt to provide players an introduction to the principles of old-style play, WITHIN THE GAME.
Instead of criticizing power gamers, I'm hoping to show them how they can have an even richer and more satisfying gaming experience.
Well, I am from the old school of D & D as well, where playing as a team whose different members all made unique and necessary contributions to the success of the mission, THINKING your way out of situations, and solving puzzles, were the bread and butter of the game. Just as enjoyable, and maybe even more so, than winning battles or acquiring the next must-have magic item.
That's how this post originated in the first place.
When I first opened my module to the public, I made it Local Vault because I enjoyed playing Local Vault myself, bringing in a developed character instead of taking all the time to level up a new one in each server I wanted to give a try.
I noticed that the vast majority of players who showed up were what I thought of as "Accountants" - all they ever talked about was numbers, numbers, numbers.. AB this and AC that and Con bonus and this penalty and blah, blah, blah. And they NEVER left the Arena cuz all they ever wanted to do was PvP to settle arguments similar to what you see in this thread. Since I already had over 80 areas at the time involving hundreds of hours of work, needless to say I was frustrated that even though I had a decent turnout of players every night, people never bothered exploring what was there.
And frankly, when they did, they wiped up every monster I had ever created. People are so into this stuff that if you let them bring in any character build they want (even with levels restricted to 20, item level restrictions and legal characters... as I had), it's very difficult to design a monster capable of killing them.
So in part, the philosophy of my mod became trying to bring back the old school feel of the game. I switched to Server Vault. I put in LOTS more puzzles and traps. I came up with the concept of the University.
All that being said, however, I don't think it's appropriate to say that power gamers and PvPers are "ruining" RPGs. If that's what they enjoy, who are we to say they can't play the game however they want? In fact, maybe the only way they could be expected to pick up on the subtleties of traditional dungeon crawling is by grouping up with more experienced old-school players and learning from the school of hard knocks.
Or maybe not. I am working very hard as a builder and DM to create a server where power gamers are welcome. Indeed, they are a useful addition to the gaming party. Within the framework of roleplaying and the story, it may even be necessary at some point for some players to fight against others. But no character will ever survive for long by stats alone.
Careful plotting, area and encounter design have always been necessary in the successful interactive fantasy roleplaying experience, and the University is my attempt to provide players an introduction to the principles of old-style play, WITHIN THE GAME.
Instead of criticizing power gamers, I'm hoping to show them how they can have an even richer and more satisfying gaming experience.
[QUOTE=restless]I cant help but feel sad when i see powergaming like this, it just destroys the whole concept of a role-playing game.
The worst are all of you who says that "a" is best, "b" sucks, and that there is no point in using "c" at all, while you constantly bring in arguments about how it won't work in pvp.
D&D is not a pvp game, Neverwinter Nights is not a pvp game, and neither was ever intended to be one. I do realize that this is a thread about tactics, and there is nothing wrong with that since tactics is and have always been important in D&D and D&D-based games, but when people say such things as Wizards being useless since Sorcerer's are much better, it just makes me sad....feel's like this new generation of gamers are destroying games meant for roleplaying with their power-gaming and meta-game thinking. Oh well.[/QUOTE]
i'll admit that i do enjoy the power end of the spectrum, finding the right synergy between stats, skills, feats, classes, tactics, and finally personality.
at the same time, i like building a pc within the framework of giving a pc a personality that works for them and try to remain true to that. it's just not in my nature to intentionally hobble myself by crafting a pc that i know can't play to it's potential.
for example i can't play a solo rogue to save my life, sure i can sneak, traps, backstab, ect, but w/o somebody else to draw attention in combat, my rogues day's are numbered. meanwhile my wizards, sorcs, & warriors are more than capable on working on their own while staying consistant to their character. sure every now and again i'll give rogues another shot (same could be said of druids & rangers) but imho the game isn't quite the right fit for them, they seem to lack places where they truely shine. (while other classes do not)
all that being said, this is less a discussion of tactics then it is another power vs role play argument.
even the most heavily crafted roleplay pc will have / use tactics, be it in a cooperative mode perhaps. which could be interesting in its own right. imho lots of builds / tactics could work great as parts of a team, even if thay fail solo (my poor rogues for example)
The worst are all of you who says that "a" is best, "b" sucks, and that there is no point in using "c" at all, while you constantly bring in arguments about how it won't work in pvp.
D&D is not a pvp game, Neverwinter Nights is not a pvp game, and neither was ever intended to be one. I do realize that this is a thread about tactics, and there is nothing wrong with that since tactics is and have always been important in D&D and D&D-based games, but when people say such things as Wizards being useless since Sorcerer's are much better, it just makes me sad....feel's like this new generation of gamers are destroying games meant for roleplaying with their power-gaming and meta-game thinking. Oh well.[/QUOTE]
i'll admit that i do enjoy the power end of the spectrum, finding the right synergy between stats, skills, feats, classes, tactics, and finally personality.
at the same time, i like building a pc within the framework of giving a pc a personality that works for them and try to remain true to that. it's just not in my nature to intentionally hobble myself by crafting a pc that i know can't play to it's potential.
for example i can't play a solo rogue to save my life, sure i can sneak, traps, backstab, ect, but w/o somebody else to draw attention in combat, my rogues day's are numbered. meanwhile my wizards, sorcs, & warriors are more than capable on working on their own while staying consistant to their character. sure every now and again i'll give rogues another shot (same could be said of druids & rangers) but imho the game isn't quite the right fit for them, they seem to lack places where they truely shine. (while other classes do not)
all that being said, this is less a discussion of tactics then it is another power vs role play argument.
even the most heavily crafted roleplay pc will have / use tactics, be it in a cooperative mode perhaps. which could be interesting in its own right. imho lots of builds / tactics could work great as parts of a team, even if thay fail solo (my poor rogues for example)
"all around you is tinder for the gods"
PAGE 2!!!!
Some excellent pointer's koz-ivan, but it's so much easier to criticise .
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]your will saves stink. have a plan to deal with this, be it through party members, potions, items, tactics or build.[/QUOTE]
Well...your fortitude saves will allow you to survive much more then mages in many cases. This really only may apply to fighters as monks/pallys etc. have quite decent saves. Personally I think foritude is the most important as I don't want to die instantly (from dev crit or otherwise). Don't forget all that immune equipment if your server allows that.
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]2. have a plan - esp if you are going for a weapon master w/ devastating critical. decisions you make early will impact what you can do late in the game.
3. choose a weapon carefully (even more carefully for WM) once you start spending your feats on specific weapons you will want to make certain that's the primary weapon you want.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more. The most important part is your weapon. And remember some weapons are clearly inferior to others.
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]however you can do a lot worse then then throwing some points into heal and or tumble. even if it costs you a little disipline[/QUOTE]
Personally I believe (from experience) that Discipline is the single most important skill for a fighter. Heal is really quite useless (except for maybe 1 point).
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]11. cleave. i can't say enough good things about having this feat as early as possible. more attacks = more total damage. i'm less a fan of greater cleave and think it can wait until you need it as a pre-req.[/QUOTE]
For the sake of Dev. Crit alone, GET THIS!
[QUOTE=MIKKYLD]but mostly I want to note that you now refer to cone of cold (which truly sucks, if only for the directional aspect) where you initially said ice storm.[/QUOTE]
Well, if you played original NWN you would be worshipping cone of cold like me! Careful placement of metamagiced cones during a time-stop can be far more effective than fireballing.
@restless: I would respond but (I think) it's been said.
tbh, I'm alot better at character guides then giving general pointers.
Some excellent pointer's koz-ivan, but it's so much easier to criticise
.[QUOTE=koz-ivan]your will saves stink. have a plan to deal with this, be it through party members, potions, items, tactics or build.[/QUOTE]
Well...your fortitude saves will allow you to survive much more then mages in many cases. This really only may apply to fighters as monks/pallys etc. have quite decent saves. Personally I think foritude is the most important as I don't want to die instantly (from dev crit or otherwise). Don't forget all that immune equipment if your server allows that.
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]2. have a plan - esp if you are going for a weapon master w/ devastating critical. decisions you make early will impact what you can do late in the game.
3. choose a weapon carefully (even more carefully for WM) once you start spending your feats on specific weapons you will want to make certain that's the primary weapon you want.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more. The most important part is your weapon. And remember some weapons are clearly inferior to others.
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]however you can do a lot worse then then throwing some points into heal and or tumble. even if it costs you a little disipline[/QUOTE]
Personally I believe (from experience) that Discipline is the single most important skill for a fighter. Heal is really quite useless (except for maybe 1 point).
[QUOTE=koz-ivan]11. cleave. i can't say enough good things about having this feat as early as possible. more attacks = more total damage. i'm less a fan of greater cleave and think it can wait until you need it as a pre-req.[/QUOTE]
For the sake of Dev. Crit alone, GET THIS!
[QUOTE=MIKKYLD]but mostly I want to note that you now refer to cone of cold (which truly sucks, if only for the directional aspect) where you initially said ice storm.[/QUOTE]
Well, if you played original NWN you would be worshipping cone of cold like me! Careful placement of metamagiced cones during a time-stop can be far more effective than fireballing.
@restless: I would respond but (I think) it's been said.
tbh, I'm alot better at character guides then giving general pointers.
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
Well, while powergamer's and PvP'ers arent ruining "RPG's" they are certainly ruining the RP aspect of those games(since just about every game containing a goblin is labeled RPG nowadays), now this may not be their intention, but thats just the way it is. See, there's a fine line between power-gaming and crippling your character. I'm not saying everyone have to make super-unique characters with complex personalities, but I dont like it when people makes every single point count toward the completion of the ultimate fighter of doom. Whatever happened to Joe and Fred Fighter? Where did the Standard Wizard go? Sure those might be boring "stereotypes", but I just wish people could at least try to be more in the middle rather than any of these two extremes.
Careful plotting, area and encounter design have always been necessary in the successful interactive fantasy roleplaying experience
Definately, and never did I argue against it, if there was no tactics and planning, but rather just straightforward hack and slash in a 10x10 room it would get rather boring, wouldn't you think? No, it's the extreme Powergamer's that bother me, the ones that would set their intelligence to 3 if they could to spend the points on "better" stats, you know, those folks who tell you that your character sucks, and how much better their own character is, oblivious to how perfectly irrelevant that is.
Instead of criticizing power gamers, I'm hoping to show them how they can have an even richer and more satisfying gaming experience.
As much as I love your University idea and bid you the best of luck with it, I really doubt it's going to "teach" many players to have a more satisfying gaming experience, simply because a lot of your potential audience just arent able to grasp the basic concepts you are trying to show them. Why click the red button when the blue one is clearly a wiser choice? Why make a Wizard when a Sorcerer is more powerful? And why would anyone want to actually give up that fancy new artifact we just found?
Finally, a word of "advice"... I strongly suggest teaching the "Students" on this university smart uses of their chosen class' abilities, rather than how best to spend their points to make it as powerful as possible.
Careful plotting, area and encounter design have always been necessary in the successful interactive fantasy roleplaying experience
Definately, and never did I argue against it, if there was no tactics and planning, but rather just straightforward hack and slash in a 10x10 room it would get rather boring, wouldn't you think? No, it's the extreme Powergamer's that bother me, the ones that would set their intelligence to 3 if they could to spend the points on "better" stats, you know, those folks who tell you that your character sucks, and how much better their own character is, oblivious to how perfectly irrelevant that is.
Instead of criticizing power gamers, I'm hoping to show them how they can have an even richer and more satisfying gaming experience.
As much as I love your University idea and bid you the best of luck with it, I really doubt it's going to "teach" many players to have a more satisfying gaming experience, simply because a lot of your potential audience just arent able to grasp the basic concepts you are trying to show them. Why click the red button when the blue one is clearly a wiser choice? Why make a Wizard when a Sorcerer is more powerful? And why would anyone want to actually give up that fancy new artifact we just found?
Finally, a word of "advice"... I strongly suggest teaching the "Students" on this university smart uses of their chosen class' abilities, rather than how best to spend their points to make it as powerful as possible.
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JackOfClubs
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@restless: I don't know if powergamers are ruining anything but you are certainly ruining this thread. The discussion was about tactics that you would want newer players to know if you are in a party with them and, except for your last sentence (which is probably too general to be useful) you have contributed nothing to that topic.
@Jessinia: Here are some rules I have developed for dealing with multiple enemies:
1. Generally attack the weakest enemy that is actually doing damage. This will allow you to eliminate threats more quickly and reduce the overall damage your party sustains.
Note, however, that this means if you are fighting a group of low-level monsters with one tough guy and the weaklings are not hitting your party, you need to take out the one who is doing damage before mopping up the weaklings.
Exceptions to this rule are monsters that cause special effects such as level-drain, poison or stunning. These guys need to go down first since they will effectively take your party members out of the fight or seriously weaken them.
2. Concentrate your fire. This works on the same principle as above. The idea is to reduce the number of attacks the enemy party has, while maintaining your own party's number.
So in a 3 x 3 matchup, if you can take out one enemy, while each of your party members loses 1/3 of their HP, you come out ahead. since on the next round they will only be able to 2/3 of their original damage where you are still offensively at full strength.
One exception to this is characters with Great Cleave might want to target individuals that are not being otherwise engaged. The theory here is that while the party is damaging one bad guy, you can focus on another so that when you kill your target, the one the party was damaging might be Near Death, thus allowing you to kill him as well and target a 3rd monster. As koz-ivan notes, however, Great Cleave is much cooler in theory than in practice and such a convoluted strategy isn't going to win too many battles.
3. Be aware of special circumstances. The above two rules can be invalidated if, for instance, concentrating on a single character allows enemy rogues to use their sneak attacks. Or if moving to engage a weak enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from a strong one. I would consider this to be an advanced course, since it is basically dealing with exceptions to an otherwise valid rule.
Another issue is that sometimes selecting a particular target gets overridden by the game engine which wants to select the nearest target that did damage to your character. Constantly re-selecting targets can sometimes get you into trouble, since it may mean that you lose an attack while reselecting. I am not sure if you want to include this in your module, though, since it really is a meta-game issue, but it is something that new players should be aware of.
4. Create your own special circumstances. What I mean here is to use features of the landscape and your parties special mix of attributes to your advantage. Also, using area of effects so that they hit the maximum nuber of enemies without damaging your party. This isn't easy to put into rule form since there are so many variations, but it is a skill that is well worth mastering.
As a final note, you might want to consider including actual practice as part of your module, in addition to written tests. Some of the tactics mentioned in this thread would be easier to learn in an actual mock combat rather than just reading and taking a multiple choice test. And it would make your module more fun than the standard level-trainer as well. Of course, this could be rather difficult to script since you would have to find a way to test for the use of actual tactics rather than merely a successful outcome. But if you are up to it, I would certainly want to take a look at that module.
@Jessinia: Here are some rules I have developed for dealing with multiple enemies:
1. Generally attack the weakest enemy that is actually doing damage. This will allow you to eliminate threats more quickly and reduce the overall damage your party sustains.
Note, however, that this means if you are fighting a group of low-level monsters with one tough guy and the weaklings are not hitting your party, you need to take out the one who is doing damage before mopping up the weaklings.
Exceptions to this rule are monsters that cause special effects such as level-drain, poison or stunning. These guys need to go down first since they will effectively take your party members out of the fight or seriously weaken them.
2. Concentrate your fire. This works on the same principle as above. The idea is to reduce the number of attacks the enemy party has, while maintaining your own party's number.
So in a 3 x 3 matchup, if you can take out one enemy, while each of your party members loses 1/3 of their HP, you come out ahead. since on the next round they will only be able to 2/3 of their original damage where you are still offensively at full strength.
One exception to this is characters with Great Cleave might want to target individuals that are not being otherwise engaged. The theory here is that while the party is damaging one bad guy, you can focus on another so that when you kill your target, the one the party was damaging might be Near Death, thus allowing you to kill him as well and target a 3rd monster. As koz-ivan notes, however, Great Cleave is much cooler in theory than in practice and such a convoluted strategy isn't going to win too many battles.
3. Be aware of special circumstances. The above two rules can be invalidated if, for instance, concentrating on a single character allows enemy rogues to use their sneak attacks. Or if moving to engage a weak enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from a strong one. I would consider this to be an advanced course, since it is basically dealing with exceptions to an otherwise valid rule.
Another issue is that sometimes selecting a particular target gets overridden by the game engine which wants to select the nearest target that did damage to your character. Constantly re-selecting targets can sometimes get you into trouble, since it may mean that you lose an attack while reselecting. I am not sure if you want to include this in your module, though, since it really is a meta-game issue, but it is something that new players should be aware of.
4. Create your own special circumstances. What I mean here is to use features of the landscape and your parties special mix of attributes to your advantage. Also, using area of effects so that they hit the maximum nuber of enemies without damaging your party. This isn't easy to put into rule form since there are so many variations, but it is a skill that is well worth mastering.
As a final note, you might want to consider including actual practice as part of your module, in addition to written tests. Some of the tactics mentioned in this thread would be easier to learn in an actual mock combat rather than just reading and taking a multiple choice test. And it would make your module more fun than the standard level-trainer as well. Of course, this could be rather difficult to script since you would have to find a way to test for the use of actual tactics rather than merely a successful outcome. But if you are up to it, I would certainly want to take a look at that module.
Resistance to Tyrants is Service to God.
1 - as a general rule i go for the most dangerous target first, with the idea in mind that i can cleave my way through the fodder later.
2 - that is a given. since a opponent w/ 10% hit points is still 100% effective you need to finish them off as soon as you can. at times you can take advantage of an attack of oppertunity as they try to heal, run, or cast. for all intents there are only two statuses you need worry about "dead" and "not dead" if it's "not dead" it's dangerous. maybe in the right party it works to have one char using whirlwind attacks, and another cleaving through the remains - it's more akin to using a ftr as a area effect spell for a few rounds to "soften" a mob.
3 - is a bit tricky, and falls back into the category of knowing who you can hang with in combat, and knowing when you should retreat. even provoking attacks of oppertunity is no big deal if the alternative is standing ground and being sliced to ribbons.
4 - i wish i had said this. very good advice, and oddly one of the good uses of ranged combat - drawing an opponent onto your ground. where your casters, traps ect ect are ready. also allows for geography to provide advantages (doorways and narrow areas prevent getting totally swarmed at once) line of sight issues ect.
2 - that is a given. since a opponent w/ 10% hit points is still 100% effective you need to finish them off as soon as you can. at times you can take advantage of an attack of oppertunity as they try to heal, run, or cast. for all intents there are only two statuses you need worry about "dead" and "not dead" if it's "not dead" it's dangerous. maybe in the right party it works to have one char using whirlwind attacks, and another cleaving through the remains - it's more akin to using a ftr as a area effect spell for a few rounds to "soften" a mob.
3 - is a bit tricky, and falls back into the category of knowing who you can hang with in combat, and knowing when you should retreat. even provoking attacks of oppertunity is no big deal if the alternative is standing ground and being sliced to ribbons.
4 - i wish i had said this. very good advice, and oddly one of the good uses of ranged combat - drawing an opponent onto your ground. where your casters, traps ect ect are ready. also allows for geography to provide advantages (doorways and narrow areas prevent getting totally swarmed at once) line of sight issues ect.
"all around you is tinder for the gods"
I've tried a number of different builds in the original game, solo play (haven't quite gotten internet working yet) and my favorite so far is the ranger..just pure, un-mixed, raw, ranger. I played all sorts of DnD campaign's on paper, but on a computer screen, with this engine, it becomes very different. My stance at this point is on the ranged/melee combat issue. Generally, I use my longbow and enchanted arrows to soften creatures up while they charge madly at me. Then, when they're close enough, I pull out my swords and slice away, avoiding most damage to myself this way. Another cool thing is pulling out the bow when the target in question can't even reach you to attack. The "home-field" advantage of using ranged weapons to draw an enemy into combat on your terms is an age-old military tactic.
"An eye for an eye...
The world is blind."
The world is blind."