The Ending (Spoilers) Curious...

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:02 pm

Ok so through out the game I played along with Camarilla and sided with Nines and the Anarchs for simple fact Damsel is so cool hehe. Anyway I'm not to familer with VTM stuff until I picked up Bloodlines and the ending I got confused the hell out of me.

SPOILER!!!!!

I battle my way up and get cheated out of actually fighting the Prince. Guess thats fine. I mouth off at him and give him the key and walk away. He opens the coffin and there is a bomb with the love letter from Jack. BOOM! haha. Cutscene to Jack on the hillside sitting with the dead mummy of King Messerach I assume? Then the cabi driver shows up, says his thing then credits.

Now I'm going to assume somehow pirate Jack filled the coffin with bombs, knowing the interest people would have in it, namely the prince. He must have done so when it was on the boat before the cops get there or sometime after. According to what you learn and see, it was clawed open from the inside? Now is that REALLY the dead King and NO Antediluvian existed? Or is the all wise cabi actually the Antediluvian since he appears with Jack at the end? Sorta working together? Maybe he was in the tomb with the king?

Now I read how the other endings are from Game Banshee's walkthrough which I ended up needing to look through for the Golden Temple statue puzzle...

I'm just trying to make sense of it is all. GAME RULES otherwise despite the bugs. I had to upgrade my RAM to play this game to 512 MB RAM.

Anyway if anyone can make sense of that ending for me, thanks!

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:28 am

[QUOTE=Mavrik]

Now I'm going to assume somehow pirate Jack filled the coffin with bombs, knowing the interest people would have in it, namely the prince. He must have done so when it was on the boat before the cops get there or sometime after. According to what you learn and see, it was clawed open from the inside? Now is that REALLY the dead King and NO Antediluvian existed? Or is the all wise cabi actually the Antediluvian since he appears with Jack at the end? Sorta working together? Maybe he was in the tomb with the king?

[/QUOTE]

SPOILERS

Right, for the Anarch ending, Jack has rigged the coffin with explosives that take LaCroix out. Jack apaprently staged the whole affair (we assume he killed the sailers, etc.). Likewise, he's sitting next to a mummified corpse, implying there was no Antediluvian of note.

The cab driver is probably not an Antediluvian. The thing to keep in mind about White Wolf's Antidiluvian's is that when they "awaken" from their centures long torpor, they would be possessed of such thirst they would immediately be devouring legions of vampires and, in all likelihood, causing mass destruction. Likewise, they would have no sympathy for either the Camarilla or the Anarchs. In fact, they would have the individual power to destroy/devour/control all the kindred in L.A. with little effort. So, its far fetched such an ancient power would be hanging out/coordinating schemes with Jack, let along driving a cab for a newbie.

Some posters have speculated that its Caine himself driving the cab. Personally, I find that pretty far fetched in light of prevalent White Wolf mythology about the founding vampire. More likely its an homage to Vlad Tepes/Dracula, in my estimate. This still seems silly to me, but that's the most likely answer that I could come up with. The developers obviously want the cabbie to be significant and familiar to the player. However, regardless of whose right, the cabby was not particularly pertinent to the plot of the game. We can assume, however, that its a pretty old and powerful vampire.

Regardless, the thing to keep in mind about Bloodlines and the VtM material as a whole, is that you're suppose to be in a state of confusion about the existence of Antediluvians. Are they simply legends or are they in fact real? Will they rise? It's this tension that pervades Bloodlines. So, the fact that you're still left up in the air about Antediluvians at the end of the game is intentional.

yrthwyndandfyre · Post by **yrthwyndandfyre** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:21 am

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's "Vlad Tsepes". "Vlad The Impaler"

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:54 am

Ok because I have not seen the other endings, only this one and it was confusing to say the least with the cabbie showing up beside Jack and talking of Caine and all that. I told a friend of mine the ending I got and he was all "No the coffin DID have an Antediluvian in it and Jack was only sitting next to a fake king as some form of joke aka 'easter egg' or something." I could not convince him since he is all hung up on the blood, the claw marks and how the coffin appeared to have been opened from the inside. Which brings about another question that if it was opened from the inside... why is there a key? lol Anyway thanks for the opinion and if anyone else has one, feel free to share it.

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:11 pm

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's "Vlad Tsepes". "Vlad The Impaler"[/QUOTE]

I was actually going for the anglicized spelling of "Vlad Tepes," which is the version I've encountered the most. Still, for some reason I got creative and threw an "m" in there. But, yes, I think I was pretty clear on who I intended.

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:30 am

I think the cabbie may well have been Caine, or perhaps an avatar of him (maybe he can possess vampires). If you like in the sounds/dlg/main characters/ directory in the game directory, his sound files are in a dir named "caine".

The cabbie seems to have the power to teleport; he could have teleported into the box, then broken out. The cabbie was displeased with LaCroix's power games, because he was sabotaging the Camarilla's ability to provide a stable society for kindred. Otherwise, Jack may have been able to fudge the crime scene himself to make it look as if it had been opened from inside.

I admit, on my first run I thought it really was an Antediluvian. I took the loner path, opened the sarcophagus and got blown up. I didn't take time to sift through all the clues, so maybe I deserved it. Then again, I don't think the ending was fair, because I thought the game would allow me to dispose of the sarcophagus without opening it. Instead I had to choose between me and LaCroix, and I wasn't going to allow LaCroix to diablerize an Antediluvian. Also, the ancient-slumbering-evil is such a common plot device in games I thought Troika had pulled that cliche. The surprise was BRILLIANT. This is one of the greatest games I've ever played.

Orlando_Hamar · Post by **Orlando_Hamar** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:27 am

[QUOTE=Faust]SPOILERS
Regardless, the thing to keep in mind about Bloodlines and the VtM material as a whole, is that you're suppose to be in a state of confusion about the existence of Antediluvians. Are they simply legends or are they in fact real? Will they rise? It's this tension that pervades Bloodlines. So, the fact that you're still left up in the air about Antediluvians at the end of the game is intentional.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to burst your bubble, man, but if you wanna know about Antediluvians, you're gonna have to play "Vampire: The Masquerade: Redemption". It's kind of old, but just as good as Bloodlines, just not so up to date. Yes, it's 3D, at least.
SPOILER:
Redemption shows you an Antediluvian with the title: Voiavoide Vukodlack (A Tsmitzee, what a suprise).
I don't know about everyone else, but I think Bloodlines had ups on Redemption on almost every point except the ending. I thought the ending was pretty dissapointing in Bloodlines; not really leaving me with a sense of satisfaction and power.

On another point, I agree with the guy who noticed that the Cabbie's speaches were in a file called "Caine". Yes, I think the Cabbie is Caine. Another thing that gave me this clue was that I was playing a Malkavian, and she kept saying "Wait...are you...? No it can't be..." and things like that.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:44 pm

Well I played as Tremere and I played both sides till the end when you have to chose who you are going to visit and the cabbie takes you there. I decided to be taken to see Nines. However with that ending you have different options, tell the prince to F off and take the key and open the coffin yourself, or tell him the coffin and LA is yours (which I would imagine would also end up with you blown up. I chose to eventually give him the key and I left before he opened it and then only he got blown up.

But from what I have been reading, the loner way can result in you walking off into the darkness as the prince blows himself up. Everyone comes and tell you how proud they are but you walk away from them.

A friend of mine who played the game through and joined with Camarilla at the end swears the coffin had an Antediluvian in it. Even though I told him about the mummy "having a smoke" with Jack.

Tzerifu · Post by **Tzerifu** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:02 pm

I would have liked to really realize that the driver is Caine, but Troika doesn't give you that impression the first time you finish the game. The more you play the game, the more questions you ask and you get to understand the game better. I agree with the guy who referred us to Redemption, there you really get to see an antedeluvian. Although in story Redemption is far above Bloodlines (who didn't guess from the beginning that you and LaCroix would not see eye to eye unless you choose to??) and lacks in gameplay (i hated the Nosferatu Warrens in Prague, all invisible!?) the ending is quite weird as you don't get to see Vukodlak much (if I remember correctly, first you hear it's voice in Prague right before you go into deep torpor and second you have to battle with him if that's the choice you make); he is mentioned throughout the game but for example meeting with Orsi again made my day not getting to fight the Tzmisce (how I wanted to kick the bastard even from our first meeting in Vienna), hmm too bad Prince Brandl doesn't die by my hand... In Bloodlines everybody fears the sarcophagus and probably you are the only one who would say "bring it on, mummy!!" but the words Beckett throws at you when you get close to the ending make you question what it would be best for you to do. After all, he was the only one that didn't believe in myths. But, as you get on with the game you realize that the driver has to be someone of great importance if he doesn't mind helping you against LaCroix or siding with no one for that matter. Don't say "so is Nines!" because the anarks are a bunch of punks, every society has its own rebels no matter how good the leadership is. What really made me think of Caine was the written story lines you get to read while an area is loading and right after I chose to dispose of Ming one in which Caine is mentioned to be alive appeared. Pure coincidence of course, but then I knew that the driver is Caine. You guys here confirm it and if you want to dig deeper, try opening any file .py in python directory with notepad (try LA areas: SantaMonica or Downtown, etc...) and search the file for Caine... you get to see that he was sitting in his cab all this time and if he is present, no antedeluvian is going to rise and even if it did, who is more powerful than the father of all kindred?

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:01 pm

Redemption, as rubbish as it was, did not include an Antedeluvian, only a Methusala with the grandious intention of diablerising an Antedeluvian to gain their power.

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:47 pm

SPOILERS

Penny is absolutely right. Redemption didn't have an Antediluvian in it, either. It was just a Methuselah who sought to gain more power and spawned a wacky little Gehenna cult. Keep in mind in the White Wolf universe an Antediluvian possesses power that is difficult to quantify. No 9th generation Brujah could stand up to a being of such power. They are supposedly near-god like beings.

Tzerifu · Post by **Tzerifu** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:08 pm

You are right. My mistake. So when do we get to see one? But I'd like to see Caine too, in more of an advisor than just a driver. Kind of like what Raiden was for MK movies (crappy movies though).

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:57 pm

Well, in the case of Tzimisce, you might have seen his small intestine in Redemption... You see, he's a giant cathedral made of human flesh and bone living under New York city...

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:18 pm

[QUOTE=Tzerifu]You are right. My mistake. So when do we get to see one? But I'd like to see Caine too, in more of an advisor than just a driver. Kind of like what Raiden was for MK movies (crappy movies though). [/Quote]

There's this misconception that many VtM people get (players, Storytellers alike), that Caine's a nice guy that will eventually set everything right for Vampires. This really isn't the case.

In the first place, any player character would be beneath Caine's notice in almost all circumstances. Caine is a being of such tremendous power, that even an Antediluvian would pale in comparison. The petty agendas of his grandchilder mean little to him, let alone those of a 10th generation Brujah who is worried about a Prince or Sabbat exploit.

It's also important to note, that Caine's not very happy with the present state of vampiredom. He forbid his grandchilder from siring any more of their kind. They did, as you know. What's happened since that time is an abomination in his eyes. His curse has been spread, and his very twisted mind, they probably all deserve to be destroyed. Though, he's too self aborbed to really bother or contemplate action against them. Regardless, chances of him being an advisor to any vampire are virtually nonexistent.

More importantly, he's as inhuman as any creature in the Vampire world. He's a being of terrible power; power that would put a Antediluvian to shame. His power, age, and self pity are so beyond human comprehension, that its unlikely that a vampire could do anything but tremble in his presence.

Moreover, Caine is far from virtuous. Over the centuries he's manipulated and then tossed aside more vampires and people than most Methuselah's and has accumulated a terrible number of enemies. He's one of the key players in the Jyhad. Although his agenda transcends that of his grandchilder.

Finally, he's an extremely petty man. As the Gehenna book and the Book of Nod make clear, he's someone God would have easily forgiven thousands of years ago if he could just admit he was wrong for killing his brother. He's completely unable to feel regret for his actions. Dwell on that for a moment.... To end the curse of vampirism which has been a blight on humanity and end his own eternal torment, all Caine would have to do is say "Hey God, I'm sorry for killing my brother. I may have overreacted just a wee bit when you liked his offering better than mine. So killing him may not have been such a swell thing to do. My bad." And, the fact that he's unable to do that, well it says a lot about Caine.

Caine is the first Murderer, and he remains an unrepentant one. He's vicious, inhuman, and ultimately friend to no one (though lord of some). Gehenna is the time when Caine is to get his just deserts.

I'd add that Caine is the most mysterious of all parts of Vampire mythology. Players are suppose to be asking "Does he ever exist?" He's the carrot that players and elders may chase after from time to time, but he's never suppose to be manifest himself (at least not until the end game). He's an enigma. Did he ever exist? Does he still exist? What's his agenda if he does exist? Where's he been for the past millennia? These are the questions the players are suppose to be left with, when bothering to dwell on their father at all.

So, anyway, I think any type of game or book that brings him into play explicitely without it being the "final chapter (AKA Gehenna)" is really misusing him. I pretty much feel that way about Antediluvians as well, though more of a case can be made for that.

Heh, and again, I really can't see Caine having been the taxi driver. That seems really far fetched (or really stupid in an otherwise faithful WW game) to me.

Mavrik · Post by **Mavrik** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:01 am

I'm playing through again as a Malkavian and I'll say its pretty entertaining. I don't even know what I'm saying half the time lol and end up pissing people off haha. Anyway, was talking to the future seeing girl and she makes references to a box... she calls it Jack in the box... what ever you do, do not open the box. Its like she already saw Jack open the box, put in the explosives and close the box... It made total sense.

Orlando_Hamar · Post by **Orlando_Hamar** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:45 pm

My mistake about the antediluvian in Redemption.

I'm playing bloodlines through again, but this time as a Toreador, do I can actually understand what she's saying (just guess, by that, what I was last time). I spoke to the future-seeing woman with the thin bloods. She replied with a load of mumbo jumbo, referring to the end of the game. (SPOILER)

'He is sat there...is that the father behind him?...don't open it!'

There were other bits in that, but I can't remember it all. The father, you just have to guess what that means. And when you watch the end of the game, you'll understand it all. It makes so much more sense. That is just proof for you that Caine, whether you like it or not, was the cab driver.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:45 pm

I reckon there was a pretty big thread about if the cabbie was or wasn't caine. In the end, for me, I just told myself "Maybe these guys WANTED the cabbie to be Caine, but rather then insult my own intelligence, I'll pretend they wanted it to be someone pretending to be Caine to scare people, like a hyper Ravnos with a death wish, or a Settite making fun of the "lesser" children of Caine.." ... Then I curled up and cried, cos I knew I was lying to myself and could never forgive myself...

.. And THATS when the murder began.. Oh boy!

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:01 pm

[QUOTE=pennypincher]I reckon there was a pretty big thread about if the cabbie was or wasn't caine. In the end, for me, I just told myself "Maybe these guys WANTED the cabbie to be Caine, but rather then insult my own intelligence, I'll pretend they wanted it to be someone pretending to be Caine to scare people, like a hyper Ravnos with a death wish, or a Settite making fun of the "lesser" children of Caine.." ... Then I curled up and cried, cos I knew I was lying to myself and could never forgive myself...

.. And THATS when the murder began.. Oh boy![/QUOTE]

Ha. Well, perhaps, I'm in a state of denial still so I haven't quite had to come up with alternative scenarios...

I simply can't believe these developers who were relatively faithful to the White Wolf material wanted the cabbie to be Caine. The only actual appearance of Caine in any White Wolf material is the Gehenna book, then the various vampire scriptures that have been published. I'm sure all those were consulted in writing the game, and it clearly goes against the notion of Caine being someone who is going to rise from torpor to drive a cab for joe random neonyte who is seeking to take down some other vampires who are of limited actual power or interest to a Methuselah, let alone the father of all vampires.

Moreover, I just don't see actual evidence for it in the dialogue or presentation either. For that matter, the driver talks about having faith in the Camarilla save for petty princes like LaCroix. My inclination is that Caine would detest the Camarilla, Sabbat, Kuei-Jin, and Anarchs alike. Moreover, I'm not sure how an elder vampire, let alone a youngster, could stand in Caine's presence without being in complete awe (and they would feel it in the blood....). Anyway, I've been clear on my thoughts on this matter. I'm going to hold out and have faith in the developers. I continue to believe it was suppose to be Dracula or just some strange vampire with no important identity. Of course even the idea of it being Vlad is pretty stupid too, considering he'd have no real reason for knowing Jack or being in L.A. Still, it at least is a more believable possibility than it being Caine. It would help me make sense of the accent too.

Anyway, I think the only evidence anyone has pulled relates to the name of a sound file, which is inclusive at best. So, I'll just let it go and continue to live in my delusions....

yrthwyndandfyre · Post by **yrthwyndandfyre** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:48 am

Possible SPOILER

[QUOTE=Mavrik]Now I'm going to assume somehow pirate Jack filled the coffin with bombs, knowing the interest people would have in it, namely the prince. He must have done so when it was on the boat before the cops get there or sometime after. According to what you learn and see, it was clawed open from the inside? Now is that REALLY the dead King and NO Antediluvian existed? Or is the all wise cabi actually the Antediluvian since he appears with Jack at the end? Sorta working together? Maybe he was in the tomb with the king?

[/QUOTE]

OK, so the logic is thus: Jack is psycho nut freak AKA pirate AKA sailor with a twisted sense of humor. Jack hates the Camarilla, especially the prince. Ergo, the safe money is that Jack sailed out to the Dane, slaughtered all on board, grabbed Messerach, and then *staged* everything to make it look like an Antedeluvian exited the sarcophagus and slaughtered the crew especially to pique Lacroix's interest. Five gets you ten that he entered the sarcophagus and exited it *himself* from the inside, then swiped the key and probably sold it to the Kuei-Jin himself. How else does a street vamp afford digs in the Hills? Why take the key? To make life hard for Lacriox so that if/when he finally got it, he would impulsively open the coffin without taking any precautions that might allow him to avoid getting blown into ash. Why sell the key to the Kuei-Jin? To provide a motive for the Cam and the Kuei-Jin to go to war and hopefully wipe each other out. The prince isn't necessarily the only vampire with devious motives. Heck, I'd give you even money that it was Jack that told Johannsen about the sarcophagus to start with. How handy to have a full-blood caitiff fall into his lap at just the right moment. That is, of course, presuming that it wasn't Jack that convinced your sire to embrace you, and convinced Skelter to get Nines to stand up for you at the trial. Nosferatu, Princes, and Regents aren't the only ones who can pull strings. I could weave a scenario for you that puts Jack at the center of the web controlling *everything*, including the Prince, albeit without anybody's knowledge.

Descartes · Post by **Descartes** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:57 am

Ok Faust, some evidence...

Dug up a little bit of evidence in favour of the cabby as Caine.

Exhibit A

Open the file santamonica.py using notepad. This file can be found in the python folder off the main vampire directory.

Do an Edit>Find search for "caine" (sans quotations)

After a few clicks of "next" (because you will find some entries already) you come to the line that reads as follows:

#CAINE: called by caine in his cab to transition you to the appropriate ending location

The following instances of "caine" all relate to the locations where the cab driver can take you. Trips . . . Mercurio . . . Vandal. It seems, for all intents and purposes, that Troika meeant either a) for the cabby to BE caine, or b) for the cabby to be someone reminiscient of caine, whom they refferred to as caine for their own convience.

Now for a healthy dose of speculation.

To all the nay-sayers who claim that Caine would not be interested in a 9th generation brujah etc. . . I say you are absolutely correct. He wouldn't be, but he would still use said Brujah for his own whims. Remember that the game he plays is something beyond our mortal comprehension. He is doing the jyhad. He is manipulating. There is no reason why his assistance toward my Malkavian should be miscontrsuted as benevolent. It was self-serving.

Remember also that the cab driver (if you choose to walk the road less travelled -- vis a vis, fly solo) will tell you that he has known people like you before who have tried to escape the jyhad, but in the end they always are empty. (Or something to that effect.) Why would he say this? Because it is probably the truth; his jyhad effects them all.