PM/RDD Combo Feasible?

[Magrus]

I had a thought of combining the PM and RDD classes to make a somewhat decent fighter. I'd like to do so with the monk class, but that won't work with the 3 class restrictions. That leaves me with the choice of Bard or Sorceror as a base class only.

I thought of the Bard, for more of an attack bonus, and for the fact it has healing and buff spells mostly. Given I'd be spending roughly 20 levels in the 2 prestige classes, my spellcaster levels wouldn't be high and attack spells would be close to worthless at high levels.

Any suggestions on how to do this?

I'm thinking 4/10/10, Bard/PM/RDD at the least, enough to get the benefits of all the classes and requirements. Possibly an elf to get the bonus martial proficiencies. I can disregard Wisdom, I'll have high Will saves from these classes and I don't need CHA so I can ditch that too.

So, I was thinking
Base RDD Bonus
Str. 14 (22)
Dex. 16
Con. 14 (16)
Int. 10 (12)
Wis. 8
Cha. 12 (14)

for my base attributes, maxing Lore, Concentration and Spellcraft and dabbling in a few other skills.I'd have +8 to Str., +2 to Con, Int, and Cha, +10 Nat Armor, and a ton of Immunities with limited buff spells.

Suggestions? Comments?

[koz-ivan]

imho the bard / pm / rdd just won't work. the synergy just isn't right.

you're running after all the bells and whistles and forgetting the fundamentals.

your spells will be near useless, not to mention very restricted in choice a 4th lv bard won't have many different spells to choose from.

your ab will still be fairly horrid, nor will you have many attacks, nor the weapon skills to make the most of your strength. improved twf might balance that out a bit.

my advice -

if you want a tricked out fighter, mix wizard pm & ftr, or bard, ftr & rdd. don't try both.

[mbz]

I agree with koz. I never had a good feeling of PM. Not just because of its ugly skelly arm, but also because it never makes a good fighter nor a good spell caster.

If you are really into Bard/RDD fighter type, why don't you try out Barbarian/Bard/RDD, or Bar/RDD/COT?

[Magrus]

At first I was thinking of W/PM/RDD, but you can't get RDD through W so that wouldn't work. I tried making the build with the bard earlier and it just sucked. I'm trying to come up with a different build than the common power-gaming ones, something different you know?

I tried making a dwarven W/PM/DD. I'm not sure if it's something that would work, but it looked interesting by the time I'd built it up to 26th level. I had 7th level spells, which would be crap for caster level (6th level W). I had a good number of HP considering it was a spellcaster class from the DD levels, but...I don't think it would hold up. The AB would still be low, at 15 for BAB at that level, caster level is horrid and I couldn't wear armor still and be able to cast spells.

I might just keep trying odd combinations and see what comes up unless someone else has a suggestion for one. Something that has a bit of kick with spell-casting but can hold up in a fight. Not necessarily fight hand to hand, just be able to wade into one and blast away without dying immediately.

If I can't find anything interesting and unusual I'll have to stick to one of those two builds you suggest.

[mbz]

[QUOTE=Magrus]At first I was thinking of W/PM/RDD, but you can't get RDD through W so that wouldn't work. I tried making the build with the bard earlier and it just sucked. I'm trying to come up with a different build than the common power-gaming ones, something different you know?

I tried making a dwarven W/PM/DD. I'm not sure if it's something that would work, but it looked interesting by the time I'd built it up to 26th level. I had 7th level spells, which would be crap for caster level (6th level W). I had a good number of HP considering it was a spellcaster class from the DD levels, but...I don't think it would hold up. The AB would still be low, at 15 for BAB at that level, caster level is horrid and I couldn't wear armor still and be able to cast spells.

I might just keep trying odd combinations and see what comes up unless someone else has a suggestion for one. Something that has a bit of kick with spell-casting but can hold up in a fight. Not necessarily fight hand to hand, just be able to wade into one and blast away without dying immediately.

If I can't find anything interesting and unusual I'll have to stick to one of those two builds you suggest.[/QUOTE]

For role playing purposes, who cares about whether it is a good combination or not? If it's cool to see your character with wings and a skelly arm, then go with it.

[Magrus]

I play solo, so survival is important. If I was running with a crowd I'd say yes. I just want something odd that I can still kill and not be crushed and run down.

Hmm, maybe tweaking one of the more common builds in a different way than usual would work for me.

[Fiberfar]

When a PM hit lvl 30, I think he gets +12 AC bonus or so. I tried to combine PM and RDD, and IMO that sucked. It would then be better to make a wizard/PM/fighter. Wizard 3/PM 15/fighter 22 or something like that.

[Magrus]

[QUOTE=Fiberfar]When a PM hit lvl 30, I think he gets +12 AC bonus or so. I tried to combine PM and RDD, and IMO that sucked. It would then be better to make a wizard/PM/fighter. Wizard 3/PM 15/fighter 22 or something like that.[/QUOTE]

PM at lvl 4 has +12 AC (+2/4 levels). I'm trying out a W/Rogue/COT now. I have spells, a few levels of rogue for evasion, sneak attack and some skills, and a few levels of COT to get some bonus feats and additional muscle. I'll have to test it out. I'm going for more of just wanting extra feats from COT than as actual melee presence. I'm not sure yet if I should drop of my wizard levels at 10, and keep going with COT for a melee person with buffs, or if I should progress as a wizard and leave off the other two classes as is. I have a 9/4/2 mix right now.

[Noober]

Bard/RDD/PM is the single best PvP melee character (in my (vast) experience). It even works with Half-Orc! I'll give more details when I'm less tired.

[Magrus]

[QUOTE=Noober]Bard/RDD/PM is the single best PvP melee character (in my (vast) experience). It even works with Half-Orc! I'll give more details when I'm less tired.[/QUOTE]

I'd be interested to see your view on that. I'm assuming you'd have to take it all the way to 40 to see any real potential?

[mbz]

I'd be interested too. I always thought lowly of the PM and the RDD. I guess I was wrong.

[Screaming Johny]

I have seen it posted many times that Bard/PM/RDD is one of the most powerful combos. You should strive for Bard14/PM16/RDD10. You end up with great stats, immunities to things like fire & criticals, and still get two wizard bonus epic feats (from PM). You also get a PM10+RDD4=14 AC bonus and 14th level Bard Song.

I started playing this once, and he was too powerful by level 9 (Bard3,PM2, RDD4) so I abandoned him.

[Magrus]

Hmm, I'll try that then. I'm drunk and need something to do.

[Noober]

Well, there are three main variations that I recognise:
The 'classic' variation: Bard 20/RDD 10/PM 10 or Bard 16/RDD 10/PM 14
The 'modern' variation: Bard 14/RDD 10/PM 16
The 'untouchable' variation: Bard 5/RDD 10/PM 25

The Classic variation was very good for the following reasons:
- AB above a fighter because of STR & Bard Songs (not to mention spells)
- HP above that of a fighter because of RDD and Palemaster bonuses
- Better damage because of STR (and Strength reducing abilities such as Dirge)
- Immunity to criticals (very important!!!)
- Either a excellent tank (boosting CON and getting Epic DR) or a Dev. Critter with a DC of 50
- Much higher AC because of RDD & Palemaster bonuses
- Much better choice of skills
- An unsaveable Curse song
- Bardic Buffs
- Bardic offensive spells (in particular Slow and Dirge)
- Much better in a non-high magic realm (e.g. having Haste without Boots of Speed)
It was not so good because:
- (Realtively) tight feats means usually no dual-wielding (though it can be argued that Shield > extra attack)
- No fourth attack (max base AB before lvl. 20 is 14)
- May have difficulty beating a spell caster depending on distance of encounter (though a 50 DC Dev. Crit and high AB gives you a better chance then all but perhaps 1-3 major builds)
- Smite hurts

The Modern variation improved on this even more:
- Epic spells!!!! (Immunity: Crits + Epic Warding = Invulnerablity on a decent server)
- More feats, AC and HP (from Epic Palemaster)
But sacrficing:
- Level 6 Bard spells
- Level 15 & 16 Bard Song bonuses (particularly Curse Song)

The Untouchable variation revolved around being as close to completely unhittable/damageable while preserving somewhat decent offensive abilities/ Perhaps only surpassed by the Wizard/Rogue/PM (because of Epic Dodge), though I feel it gives up too much in terms of HP and offensive melee ability to be effective. Below is why this build is effective
- Base AC of 49 (IIRC) means getting to 110+ AC with just +10 equipment and buffs
- 50% concealment form Improved Invisibility
- Immunity: Criticals means no lucky Dev. Crit kill
- Epic Warding (plus other Epic Spells) & Epic Mage Armour

[Magrus]

Interesting looking builds. Any suggestions as to ability/feat/skill/spell choices which would be most effective?

[Noober]

PAGE 2!!

Which build?

[Magrus]

I think the "modern" version is one I'll try actually playing through with if you have any pointers for that?

[Noober]

If I have time (and if you want it) I can post a full version, but here are some pointers:
- Become PM ASAP, then RDD, then finish your Bard
- About feats, the main thing is to get both Devastating critical (in particular the pre-reqs) and you choice of Epic Spells (take advantage of your PM bonus feat)
- If going full STR (like most) don't take more Great Strengths than what's needed for 50 STR with equip (any maybe buff)
- Skills choices are own preference, I went with Tumble, Perform, Discipline
- Spells should revolved around buffs (haste, imp. invisibility etc.) and possibly Dirge and Slow
- STR should be ~16 (or 18 if Half-Orc)
- CHA should be 13
- INT varies as to whether you want Expertise (or other)
- DEX varies as to whether you want two-weapon fighting (not recommended)
- WIS is at 8
- CON is where all remaining points go (or STR)

[Magrus]

Thanks. That should be good enough for me. Sounds like what I was thinking of on a few points in the first place, just wasn't sure how to go about it.

So I should have the option to take at max 4 epic spells if I have feats left over, or other feats should I choose different. 7 feats to get Dev. Critical altogether, that leaves 3 free feats, plus those I can choose for epic spells and one for being a human if I go that route. Along with at least one Metamagic feat I'd need to have to make use of the extra spells slots I'll have from PM until I level my Bard class up to have spells for those levels. I won't have many feats at all, 16 altogether at finish I do believe.

The question is, do I pick elf and go with the extra martial feats and stick to a long sword or rapier as my weapon, or do I dump an extra feat into opening up the use of more weapons to choose from? If so, I'll probably just go with a Human for cancelling out that waste of the extra feat.

[Noober]

I wouldn't recommend Elf (as generally CON is more important for you), both Humans and Half-Orc are better (IMHO).