The Ending (Spoilers) Curious...
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silver_frost
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Er, I have not finished the game but if the cabbie that talks at the end is the same cabbie that drives you around...I killed him once when i frenzied before he respawned. Lol.
Cleaving to the flesh
Encumbering the steps
Around the flawed is where is lies
Weakening the reason
Shackles on the strong
All of hate has come to pass
Look behind
Look broad
All has come to nought
Leave the weary to their thoughts
Encumbering the steps
Around the flawed is where is lies
Weakening the reason
Shackles on the strong
All of hate has come to pass
Look behind
Look broad
All has come to nought
Leave the weary to their thoughts
From the conversation, I think Caine is trying to keep a certain balance amongst his children. He remarks that the power games of LaCroix and others like him sabotage the Camarilla's purpose to provide a stable society for Kindred. I think he worked with Jack to remove LaCroix. And yes, you were a tool.
"Even the most powerful wizards will respect cold steel once it's shoved down their throats."
[QUOTE=Descartes]
The following instances of "caine" all relate to the locations where the cab driver can take you. Trips . . . Mercurio . . . Vandal. It seems, for all intents and purposes, that Troika meeant either a) for the cabby to BE caine, or b) for the cabby to be someone reminiscient of caine, whom they refferred to as caine for their own convience.
To all the nay-sayers who claim that Caine would not be interested in a 9th generation brujah etc. . . I say you are absolutely correct. He wouldn't be, but he would still use said Brujah for his own whims. Remember that the game he plays is something beyond our mortal comprehension. He is doing the jyhad. He is manipulating. There is no reason why his assistance toward my Malkavian should be miscontrsuted as benevolent. It was self-serving.
[/QUOTE]
The evidence remains circumstantial at best. There is little in game evidence suggesting he's Caine. It's very likely the developers just used "caine" as a tag, rather than actually meaning to imply the first vampire is driving the cab. They want the cabbie to be a mystery, after all.
And, as for the motivation you suggest, I simply don't buy it. What possible meta-game could Caine be playing in (1) "New World" L.A., (2) regarding relatively weak Kindred (whom he could kill with a thought), (3) regarding Antediluvians (whom, again, he could kill with but a gesture)? I don't see any meta-game here, at least not one that isn’t far beneath Caine. Hiding behind the "What can we as puny mortals understand?" excuse doesn't work for me, either. If we can't at least have an inkling of an idea, it just seems silly.
Let me be clear, from White Wolf, Talmudic, and Biblical evidence there is nothing to suggest Caine cares about anyone but himself (and potentially God, and Lillith at various points). Caine is completely and utterly self-absorbed. He cares nothing his progeny, except for some passing contempt for them. Moreover, the Gehenna resources as well as the Book of Nod, make it abundantly clear that the last couple thousand years have only witnessed a Caine who wants to be left alone, one who wants to bathe in self-pity induced torpor.
I simply can't see the possible motivation for Caine driving a newbie around town. It just doesn't make sense. And, quite frankly, Jack may be cool to a fledgling vampire, but he's a 10th generation Brujah whose only been around a couple hundred years. He's not someone of stature to a virtual god. Chances are Caine has barelly been awake during any of Jack's vampire existence, for that matter. I can't even envision Caine being sympathetic to the Anarch motivation. Anarchs are the epitome of the unwieldy childer he gave up on millennia ago. For that matter, if Caine ever chose to make himself known, the combined strength of the Camarilla, Sabbat, and Anarchs would mean nothing to him. And, he's got no reason to prefer one group over the other.
Beyond Caine's motivations, there are a couple other factors that speak against such a thing. First off, Caine would probably be insanely hungry if he were to awaken. While, I suppose, its possible Caine's hunger would not be as insatiable as his grand-childer, it seems likely he's going to make a stir feeding off vampires. Secondly, it would be impossible for any fledgling vampire to be in Caine's presence without being completely awed by it. You would know you were in the presence of something so far beyond you, it would shake the foundation of your vampiric being.
My counter suggestions, which I could be very wrong about, is that the cabbie is suppose to be Vlad. This seems silly to me as well, but more in the realm of possibility. Vlad has, at various times in his life, been a member of the Camarilla, the Sabbat, and he's known all manner of renegade and powerful vampires. Moreover, he basically does his own thing these days, and can respect those who do as well (in theory). Anyway, this at least makes more sense to me in terms of familiarity and the dialogue options that are given. I really have trouble imagining Caine even talking about the Camarilla. They are so very young and insignificant to him, after all.
Anyway, I just don't buy it. I will give you this - it's possible that the developers intended for it to be Caine. However, if so, its very contrary to the White Wolf VtM depicture of the first vampire. Any avid VtM Storyteller or Player can see where I'm coming from on this. And, as such, I'm going to chose to believe its not Caine. It just seems too out of character for the otherwise faithful developers.
The following instances of "caine" all relate to the locations where the cab driver can take you. Trips . . . Mercurio . . . Vandal. It seems, for all intents and purposes, that Troika meeant either a) for the cabby to BE caine, or b) for the cabby to be someone reminiscient of caine, whom they refferred to as caine for their own convience.
To all the nay-sayers who claim that Caine would not be interested in a 9th generation brujah etc. . . I say you are absolutely correct. He wouldn't be, but he would still use said Brujah for his own whims. Remember that the game he plays is something beyond our mortal comprehension. He is doing the jyhad. He is manipulating. There is no reason why his assistance toward my Malkavian should be miscontrsuted as benevolent. It was self-serving.
[/QUOTE]
The evidence remains circumstantial at best. There is little in game evidence suggesting he's Caine. It's very likely the developers just used "caine" as a tag, rather than actually meaning to imply the first vampire is driving the cab. They want the cabbie to be a mystery, after all.
And, as for the motivation you suggest, I simply don't buy it. What possible meta-game could Caine be playing in (1) "New World" L.A., (2) regarding relatively weak Kindred (whom he could kill with a thought), (3) regarding Antediluvians (whom, again, he could kill with but a gesture)? I don't see any meta-game here, at least not one that isn’t far beneath Caine. Hiding behind the "What can we as puny mortals understand?" excuse doesn't work for me, either. If we can't at least have an inkling of an idea, it just seems silly.
Let me be clear, from White Wolf, Talmudic, and Biblical evidence there is nothing to suggest Caine cares about anyone but himself (and potentially God, and Lillith at various points). Caine is completely and utterly self-absorbed. He cares nothing his progeny, except for some passing contempt for them. Moreover, the Gehenna resources as well as the Book of Nod, make it abundantly clear that the last couple thousand years have only witnessed a Caine who wants to be left alone, one who wants to bathe in self-pity induced torpor.
I simply can't see the possible motivation for Caine driving a newbie around town. It just doesn't make sense. And, quite frankly, Jack may be cool to a fledgling vampire, but he's a 10th generation Brujah whose only been around a couple hundred years. He's not someone of stature to a virtual god. Chances are Caine has barelly been awake during any of Jack's vampire existence, for that matter. I can't even envision Caine being sympathetic to the Anarch motivation. Anarchs are the epitome of the unwieldy childer he gave up on millennia ago. For that matter, if Caine ever chose to make himself known, the combined strength of the Camarilla, Sabbat, and Anarchs would mean nothing to him. And, he's got no reason to prefer one group over the other.
Beyond Caine's motivations, there are a couple other factors that speak against such a thing. First off, Caine would probably be insanely hungry if he were to awaken. While, I suppose, its possible Caine's hunger would not be as insatiable as his grand-childer, it seems likely he's going to make a stir feeding off vampires. Secondly, it would be impossible for any fledgling vampire to be in Caine's presence without being completely awed by it. You would know you were in the presence of something so far beyond you, it would shake the foundation of your vampiric being.
My counter suggestions, which I could be very wrong about, is that the cabbie is suppose to be Vlad. This seems silly to me as well, but more in the realm of possibility. Vlad has, at various times in his life, been a member of the Camarilla, the Sabbat, and he's known all manner of renegade and powerful vampires. Moreover, he basically does his own thing these days, and can respect those who do as well (in theory). Anyway, this at least makes more sense to me in terms of familiarity and the dialogue options that are given. I really have trouble imagining Caine even talking about the Camarilla. They are so very young and insignificant to him, after all.
Anyway, I just don't buy it. I will give you this - it's possible that the developers intended for it to be Caine. However, if so, its very contrary to the White Wolf VtM depicture of the first vampire. Any avid VtM Storyteller or Player can see where I'm coming from on this. And, as such, I'm going to chose to believe its not Caine. It just seems too out of character for the otherwise faithful developers.
fair enough, I'm not adequately versed...
... for this argument.
But I will refer you nonetheless to the continual references to the Dark Father in both the in-game tips and the maddened whisperings of my Malkavian. Remember that the Malk does sense something in the cab driver and says something to the efffect of "You're . . . No - it CAN'T be!" The other instance that pops into my mind was during the time when I first entered the Red Dragon. After the woman at the front let me into the elevator I disctinctly remember someone/thing scremaing at me "THE DARK FATHER RETURNS! HE RETURNS! (Inchoerent screaming/babbling)"
And in regard to Caine's hunger, are we sure that he actually went to sleep somewhere? (this is where my ignorance comes in) Or could he have been alive all along, doing whatever it is that Caine would do?
... for this argument.
But I will refer you nonetheless to the continual references to the Dark Father in both the in-game tips and the maddened whisperings of my Malkavian. Remember that the Malk does sense something in the cab driver and says something to the efffect of "You're . . . No - it CAN'T be!" The other instance that pops into my mind was during the time when I first entered the Red Dragon. After the woman at the front let me into the elevator I disctinctly remember someone/thing scremaing at me "THE DARK FATHER RETURNS! HE RETURNS! (Inchoerent screaming/babbling)"
And in regard to Caine's hunger, are we sure that he actually went to sleep somewhere? (this is where my ignorance comes in) Or could he have been alive all along, doing whatever it is that Caine would do?
[QUOTE=Descartes]... for this argument.
But I will refer you nonetheless to the continual references to the Dark Father in both the in-game tips and the maddened whisperings of my Malkavian. Remember that the Malk does sense something in the cab driver and says something to the efffect of "You're . . . No - it CAN'T be!" The other instance that pops into my mind was during the time when I first entered the Red Dragon. After the woman at the front let me into the elevator I disctinctly remember someone/thing scremaing at me "THE DARK FATHER RETURNS! HE RETURNS! (Inchoerent screaming/babbling)"
And in regard to Caine's hunger, are we sure that he actually went to sleep somewhere? (this is where my ignorance comes in) Or could he have been alive all along, doing whatever it is that Caine would do?[/QUOTE]
Right, although, like much of what the Malkavians say "Dark Father" doesn't necessarilly imply "Caine." It could imply a number of identities. In the case of he game, generally the notion of "Dark Father" seems to indicate the alleged Antediluvian which is central to the plot of the game. And, again, some of the Malkavian voices/preminitions are meants to be misleading. I think most of the "Dark Father" lines were meant to heighten the apocalyptic fear that was rampent throughout Bloodlines, rather than indicate something specific about Caine.
Likewise, the Malkavian never identifies the driver as Caine or the Dark Father. So, again, a number of identities could be inferred. Once again, its clear the cabbie was suppose to be somewhat significant. God-like is another issue entirely. My insistence is that if it was Caine, the younger vampire should would have felt it in her blood that she was in the presence of a beast so far beyond her own beast, that it would have been overwhelming.
As to Caine - the Gehenna sourcebook is the only real "modern" WW material we have of the first vampire. It's fairly clear that Caine has been in and out of slumber for the last centuries from it. The modern world is quite new to him, for all practical purposes, and hence something he's still adjusting to at the end of days. The Book of Nod, along with the Gehenna material, is clear that all Caine has really wanted to do for the past several centuries is be left alone and in his own solitude. He may have awakened some over the last millenia, but its not been often. Regardless, its possible he wouldn't be consumed by the hunger upon arising that his grand-childer are, but it seems intricately tied to his curse, if you ask me.
But I will refer you nonetheless to the continual references to the Dark Father in both the in-game tips and the maddened whisperings of my Malkavian. Remember that the Malk does sense something in the cab driver and says something to the efffect of "You're . . . No - it CAN'T be!" The other instance that pops into my mind was during the time when I first entered the Red Dragon. After the woman at the front let me into the elevator I disctinctly remember someone/thing scremaing at me "THE DARK FATHER RETURNS! HE RETURNS! (Inchoerent screaming/babbling)"
And in regard to Caine's hunger, are we sure that he actually went to sleep somewhere? (this is where my ignorance comes in) Or could he have been alive all along, doing whatever it is that Caine would do?[/QUOTE]
Right, although, like much of what the Malkavians say "Dark Father" doesn't necessarilly imply "Caine." It could imply a number of identities. In the case of he game, generally the notion of "Dark Father" seems to indicate the alleged Antediluvian which is central to the plot of the game. And, again, some of the Malkavian voices/preminitions are meants to be misleading. I think most of the "Dark Father" lines were meant to heighten the apocalyptic fear that was rampent throughout Bloodlines, rather than indicate something specific about Caine.
Likewise, the Malkavian never identifies the driver as Caine or the Dark Father. So, again, a number of identities could be inferred. Once again, its clear the cabbie was suppose to be somewhat significant. God-like is another issue entirely. My insistence is that if it was Caine, the younger vampire should would have felt it in her blood that she was in the presence of a beast so far beyond her own beast, that it would have been overwhelming.
As to Caine - the Gehenna sourcebook is the only real "modern" WW material we have of the first vampire. It's fairly clear that Caine has been in and out of slumber for the last centuries from it. The modern world is quite new to him, for all practical purposes, and hence something he's still adjusting to at the end of days. The Book of Nod, along with the Gehenna material, is clear that all Caine has really wanted to do for the past several centuries is be left alone and in his own solitude. He may have awakened some over the last millenia, but its not been often. Regardless, its possible he wouldn't be consumed by the hunger upon arising that his grand-childer are, but it seems intricately tied to his curse, if you ask me.
Thats the one really cool thing about playing a Malkavian is you get interesting dialog to answer with but some are really truthful in regards to certain interations... it gives dialog options not available to others. But it is true Malkavians reference to "Dark Father" is most likely not to Caine. When your in the King Place mansion trying to find the makers of the tape and you confront whats his name... real ugly dude lol. He makes mention of the coffin and the Malkavian refers to "You believe the dark father is inside" refering not to Caine but to an ancient. And then the guy goes on the babble about how the dark father inside will rise and bring about the end of the world before you "kill" him.
What is clear though is the many opinions on this. wow.
What is clear though is the many opinions on this. wow.
[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]OK, so the logic is thus: Jack is psycho nut freak AKA pirate AKA sailor with a twisted sense of humor. Jack hates the Camarilla, especially the prince. Ergo, the safe money is that Jack sailed out to the Dane, slaughtered all on board, grabbed Messerach, and then *staged* everything to make it look like an Antedeluvian exited the sarcophagus and slaughtered the crew especially to pique Lacroix's interest. Five gets you ten that he entered the sarcophagus and exited it *himself* from the inside, then swiped the key and probably sold it to the Kuei-Jin himself. How else does a street vamp afford digs in the Hills? Why take the key? To make life hard for Lacriox so that if/when he finally got it, he would impulsively open the coffin without taking any precautions that might allow him to avoid getting blown into ash. Why sell the key to the Kuei-Jin? To provide a motive for the Cam and the Kuei-Jin to go to war and hopefully wipe each other out. The prince isn't necessarily the only vampire with devious motives. Heck, I'd give you even money that it was Jack that told Johannsen about the sarcophagus to start with. How handy to have a full-blood caitiff fall into his lap at just the right moment. That is, of course, presuming that it wasn't Jack that convinced your sire to embrace you, and convinced Skelter to get Nines to stand up for you at the trial. Nosferatu, Princes, and Regents aren't the only ones who can pull strings. I could weave a scenario for you that puts Jack at the center of the web controlling *everything*, including the Prince, albeit without anybody's knowledge.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you can get the archeologist to admit that he was sent a package telling him where to find the sarcophagus. And he further says it's unheard of to find something like that unopened, and that the key was nearby. (So why didn't he open it?) Like you I think things were set up from the beginning. And I bet anything that the "Lt. Stygian" mentioned in the ship's log is Jack. It's just too cool a name. And notice the log (the entries could be faked) says Stygian dies, conveniently eliminating him as a suspect! And we really don't know that anyone was killed aboard the Dane. It's just there's blood everywhere. (Blood is blood.) And like you said, someone could have got in the sarcophagus and climbed right back out. And it seems obvious that they did, since whoever was inside had to have already had blood on their hands in the first place! (And why didn't the archeologist travel on board the ship? Surely he'd want to keep an eye on his find!) And it's doubtful the ship could have gotten to a a reasonably safe place near Santa Monica without at least a skeleton (Haw!) crew on board. So more guys than just Jack got off the ship when it got to California. Lots of inconsistencies point either to a sloppy story (possible) or a very elaborate setup.
And yeah, I can't help but think Jack also has something to do with your character's embrace. Sebastian says how loyal your sire was to him, so why does your sire break the law? And who tipped off Sebastian's goons that you've just been sired? They pop right up!! And everyone says how surprisingly powerful you are, so it's not like you're an ordinary fledgling. I'd almost suspect that Jack sired you, except for the different clans you can be. (Or would that be possible?) Jack is supposed to be a pirate, so everyone thinks "Yo ho ho" Pirates of the Caribbean period. But there's been pirates for millenia, so Jack could be a *lot* older.
Wow, all this makes my head hurt....
Yeah, you can get the archeologist to admit that he was sent a package telling him where to find the sarcophagus. And he further says it's unheard of to find something like that unopened, and that the key was nearby. (So why didn't he open it?) Like you I think things were set up from the beginning. And I bet anything that the "Lt. Stygian" mentioned in the ship's log is Jack. It's just too cool a name. And notice the log (the entries could be faked) says Stygian dies, conveniently eliminating him as a suspect! And we really don't know that anyone was killed aboard the Dane. It's just there's blood everywhere. (Blood is blood.) And like you said, someone could have got in the sarcophagus and climbed right back out. And it seems obvious that they did, since whoever was inside had to have already had blood on their hands in the first place! (And why didn't the archeologist travel on board the ship? Surely he'd want to keep an eye on his find!) And it's doubtful the ship could have gotten to a a reasonably safe place near Santa Monica without at least a skeleton (Haw!) crew on board. So more guys than just Jack got off the ship when it got to California. Lots of inconsistencies point either to a sloppy story (possible) or a very elaborate setup.
And yeah, I can't help but think Jack also has something to do with your character's embrace. Sebastian says how loyal your sire was to him, so why does your sire break the law? And who tipped off Sebastian's goons that you've just been sired? They pop right up!! And everyone says how surprisingly powerful you are, so it's not like you're an ordinary fledgling. I'd almost suspect that Jack sired you, except for the different clans you can be. (Or would that be possible?) Jack is supposed to be a pirate, so everyone thinks "Yo ho ho" Pirates of the Caribbean period. But there's been pirates for millenia, so Jack could be a *lot* older.
Wow, all this makes my head hurt....
Forensics?
Assuming Jack did it, couldn't your character get a fingerprint analysis done or something to that effect? It's not like the prince would care if you did it the Kine's legal way...
Unless Jack burnt his fingerprints off (or had them burnt off) just before he was embraced, he'd never be able to get rid of them, what with the vampiric regeneration, right? If he slaughtered a freighter's entire crew and left bloody handprints all over the sarcophagus and the deck, maybe he left at least a partial print?
Although, if he came up with this whole fake Gehenna trick, maybe he had the forethought to wear gloves. That's the way my mind works at least.
Assuming Jack did it, couldn't your character get a fingerprint analysis done or something to that effect? It's not like the prince would care if you did it the Kine's legal way...
Unless Jack burnt his fingerprints off (or had them burnt off) just before he was embraced, he'd never be able to get rid of them, what with the vampiric regeneration, right? If he slaughtered a freighter's entire crew and left bloody handprints all over the sarcophagus and the deck, maybe he left at least a partial print?
Although, if he came up with this whole fake Gehenna trick, maybe he had the forethought to wear gloves. That's the way my mind works at least.
Jack would not be on any police file... As a vampire he would not allow any records kept of him to suggest he was alive for a long long time... Gotta remember VTM Bloodlines is not reality where everyone is on file by the US government. Jack also being a pirate suggests he was sired a long time ago, long before finger printing so even if the cops had found a print, there would not be anything in the database to match it with.
And not sure if Ann Rice and VTM see eye to eye on vampire regeneration. Ann Rice has it that a vampire keeps its exact appearance when sired no matter what he or she does with it. Cut the hair, it grows right back instantly... etc... It might be possible for a vampire in VTM to scrape off their fingerprints...
And not sure if Ann Rice and VTM see eye to eye on vampire regeneration. Ann Rice has it that a vampire keeps its exact appearance when sired no matter what he or she does with it. Cut the hair, it grows right back instantly... etc... It might be possible for a vampire in VTM to scrape off their fingerprints...
According to the L.A. by Night Sourcebook, Jack was embraced in 1654. He was born in 1611. He was a Carribean pirate in the 17th century. So, acquiring fingerprints is fairly impossible. It's an interesting question as to what occurs to vampire's fingerprints past death. My inclination is that they lack the human warmth to actually constitute significant fingerprints.
One of the reasons that your fingers actually 'print' is that they have oils that stick to stuff.
If your hand is dripping blood, then the oils are unnecessary, but even for a fairly red-handed vampire, that's probably rare.
As for prints being in someone's database, it doesn't particularly matter when someone was born - if they touch stuff at a crime scene, they are on file somewhere.
I'd also be inclined to assume that vamps' fingers won't print unless coated with blood or paint or something.
If your hand is dripping blood, then the oils are unnecessary, but even for a fairly red-handed vampire, that's probably rare.
As for prints being in someone's database, it doesn't particularly matter when someone was born - if they touch stuff at a crime scene, they are on file somewhere.
I'd also be inclined to assume that vamps' fingers won't print unless coated with blood or paint or something.
finger prints may be on fine but in Jack's case no name.
Now I wonder who the bombs were ment for. Jack probably considered 3 things and in the end a good BOOM in either case was fine.
Case 1: He's on board the ship, kills the crew, removes the dead king, plants the bombs and leaves once the ship gets just off shore. He did that because he knew the Prince and other factions, Sabbat and the asian devils would want it. He counted on everything going in order and Ming ending up with the key so she would open it and BOOM! Bye bye Ming. Of course in the ending with siding with Ming, she just tosses you and the coffin into the sea... but how would Jack know that? he's gambling here.
Case 2: The Prince would want this and if he got it before Ming, he would obviously open it and BOOM, bye bye Prince and LA is free of him once again.
Case 3: Sabbat vampires get their hands on it since they believe in the ancient vampires and wish to bring about the end of the world. They open it and BOOM! Takes out a few Sabbat.
Either case Jack would be happy with the outcome and if you listen to the future seeing thin blood at the beginning of the game she warns you of Jack and the Box and not to open it. If you listen, you live and its all good.
Now I wonder who the bombs were ment for. Jack probably considered 3 things and in the end a good BOOM in either case was fine.
Case 1: He's on board the ship, kills the crew, removes the dead king, plants the bombs and leaves once the ship gets just off shore. He did that because he knew the Prince and other factions, Sabbat and the asian devils would want it. He counted on everything going in order and Ming ending up with the key so she would open it and BOOM! Bye bye Ming. Of course in the ending with siding with Ming, she just tosses you and the coffin into the sea... but how would Jack know that? he's gambling here.
Case 2: The Prince would want this and if he got it before Ming, he would obviously open it and BOOM, bye bye Prince and LA is free of him once again.
Case 3: Sabbat vampires get their hands on it since they believe in the ancient vampires and wish to bring about the end of the world. They open it and BOOM! Takes out a few Sabbat.
Either case Jack would be happy with the outcome and if you listen to the future seeing thin blood at the beginning of the game she warns you of Jack and the Box and not to open it. If you listen, you live and its all good.
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pennypincher
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Jack was alive in the age of pirates and the open seas.. His records, I'd suggest, wouldn't be on file.
Also, the prince MIGHT take offence to you using the local police. Afterall, if the records WERE on file, they might be on file 120 years ago... Which means there would be a massive investigation which could uncover the existance of "Long lived life forms"...
Also, the prince MIGHT take offence to you using the local police. Afterall, if the records WERE on file, they might be on file 120 years ago... Which means there would be a massive investigation which could uncover the existance of "Long lived life forms"...
I was Diablorised once. I got better.
My comment about not needing to get fingerprints in the legal way was more aimed at being able to just take them from anything he touched. But if he doesn't secrete oils from his hands or watever, then you might need to either set someone up, or do some investigative work yourself. No need to get the police involved -- just another sample that we know is from him... I'm sure there'd be a willing Tremere around L.A. with relevant equipment (if said character isn't one itself.) Modern Tremere's aren't restricted from using science to study thaumaturgy, correct? That, or one lucky scientist might just get to escape it's hum-drum life... after making a healthy bonus/working for a higher cause.
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yrthwyndandfyre
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[QUOTE=Mavrik]My newbie state is preventing me to sound educated in VTM however the whole "jack staged it all" makes complete sense to me with the only remaining question of.... Who is the cabbie and why does he show up with Jack in the end? you never see his face...[/QUOTE]
I've come with a little additional dope. I bought a fortune from the fortune-teller, and she said something interesting. "Trust the man on the couch and the Lone Wolf - all others are suspect". Obviously, that's Mercurio and Beckett, so despite the fact Jack seems so friendly, he's a friend of opportunity - his.
Now, the cabbie. Lots of speculation, but I know this. The sherrif has that black haze thing happening. He has too many powers to be of any specific bloodline, so either he's antedeluvian, or he practices diablerie (both things that the PC doesn't get to mess with). The cabbie that shows up with Jack at the end has the same black haze thing happening, and when the sherrif is emanating that stuff, he's not happy. From this, I conclude that at the end, the cabbie isn't dropping by for a quick confab - he's about to open a can of whup- (uh....stuff) on Jack. If Caine can't be bothered with such trivialities, then I'd be inclined to believe it was Vlad. Despite his rep, Vlad had perfectly reasonable motivations for everything he did in life - he wasn't just a straight up psycho nut-bar. He was paying off old debts and doing his best to protect his people from invaders. He might have gone a bit over the top a few times, but trust me - he had more than adequate motivation. Of course, this is all based on the historical Vlad III, Voivode of Wallachia, not the cartoon or movie versions of Vlad.
http://www.eat-online.net/english/super ... racula.htm
I've come with a little additional dope. I bought a fortune from the fortune-teller, and she said something interesting. "Trust the man on the couch and the Lone Wolf - all others are suspect". Obviously, that's Mercurio and Beckett, so despite the fact Jack seems so friendly, he's a friend of opportunity - his.
Now, the cabbie. Lots of speculation, but I know this. The sherrif has that black haze thing happening. He has too many powers to be of any specific bloodline, so either he's antedeluvian, or he practices diablerie (both things that the PC doesn't get to mess with). The cabbie that shows up with Jack at the end has the same black haze thing happening, and when the sherrif is emanating that stuff, he's not happy. From this, I conclude that at the end, the cabbie isn't dropping by for a quick confab - he's about to open a can of whup- (uh....stuff) on Jack. If Caine can't be bothered with such trivialities, then I'd be inclined to believe it was Vlad. Despite his rep, Vlad had perfectly reasonable motivations for everything he did in life - he wasn't just a straight up psycho nut-bar. He was paying off old debts and doing his best to protect his people from invaders. He might have gone a bit over the top a few times, but trust me - he had more than adequate motivation. Of course, this is all based on the historical Vlad III, Voivode of Wallachia, not the cartoon or movie versions of Vlad.
http://www.eat-online.net/english/super ... racula.htm
Sic gorgiamos allos subjectatos nunc
(The Addams family motto: Gladly we feast on those who would subdue us)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with Ketchup.
(The Addams family motto: Gladly we feast on those who would subdue us)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with Ketchup.
Wow, this thread has been a wild ride.
Spoilers, misdirection, and outright lies follow....
[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]I've come with a little additional dope. I bought a fortune from the fortune-teller, and she said something interesting. "Trust the man on the couch and the Lone Wolf - all others are suspect". Obviously, that's Mercurio and Beckett, so despite the fact Jack seems so friendly, he's a friend of opportunity - his. [/quote]
I love the thin-blood fortune teller for that reason. She tells you pretty much what is going to happen the entire game. She also makes it clear that Jack is not someone you can trust. He's manipulating you, like everyone else. Only Mercurio and Beckett are straight with you.
[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]
The sherrif has that black haze thing happening. He has too many powers to be of any specific bloodline, so either he's antedeluvian, or he practices diablerie (both things that the PC doesn't get to mess with). [/QUOTE]
The sheriff is definitely not an antedeluvian; he'd mop the floor with the player if he was (the werewolf would be nothing to an Antediluvian, and he's unbeatable to the player, for instance). As is mentioned when talking to Jack about the Sheriff, the Sheriff is from Africa. This would lead me to believe he's from an exotic line of vampires indigenous to that continent. There are some exotic bloodlines in African that combine the vicissitude powers of the Tzimisce with the Animalism of the Gangrel. We see him using, presumably, those two disciplines at various points in the game (the former in the prelude, and, presumably, the latter in the end). Anyway, this seems like the most likely answer to his identity.
[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]
The cabbie that shows up with Jack at the end has the same black haze thing happening, and when the sherrif is emanating that stuff, he's not happy. From this, I conclude that at the end, the cabbie isn't dropping by for a quick confab - he's about to open a can of whup- (uh....stuff) on Jack. If Caine can't be bothered with such trivialities, then I'd be inclined to believe it was Vlad. Despite his rep, Vlad had perfectly reasonable motivations for everything he did in life - he wasn't just a straight up psycho nut-bar. He was paying off old debts and doing his best to protect his people from invaders. He might have gone a bit over the top a few times, but trust me - he had more than adequate motivation. Of course, this is all based on the historical Vlad III, Voivode of Wallachia, not the cartoon or movie versions of Vlad. [/QUOTE]
I'm not quite sure why you think the cabbie is about to get involved or, specifically, hurt Jack. But I'm glad to see that a few are beginning to agree with me about him not being Caine!
Spoilers, misdirection, and outright lies follow....
[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]I've come with a little additional dope. I bought a fortune from the fortune-teller, and she said something interesting. "Trust the man on the couch and the Lone Wolf - all others are suspect". Obviously, that's Mercurio and Beckett, so despite the fact Jack seems so friendly, he's a friend of opportunity - his. [/quote]
I love the thin-blood fortune teller for that reason. She tells you pretty much what is going to happen the entire game. She also makes it clear that Jack is not someone you can trust. He's manipulating you, like everyone else. Only Mercurio and Beckett are straight with you.
[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]
The sherrif has that black haze thing happening. He has too many powers to be of any specific bloodline, so either he's antedeluvian, or he practices diablerie (both things that the PC doesn't get to mess with). [/QUOTE]
The sheriff is definitely not an antedeluvian; he'd mop the floor with the player if he was (the werewolf would be nothing to an Antediluvian, and he's unbeatable to the player, for instance). As is mentioned when talking to Jack about the Sheriff, the Sheriff is from Africa. This would lead me to believe he's from an exotic line of vampires indigenous to that continent. There are some exotic bloodlines in African that combine the vicissitude powers of the Tzimisce with the Animalism of the Gangrel. We see him using, presumably, those two disciplines at various points in the game (the former in the prelude, and, presumably, the latter in the end). Anyway, this seems like the most likely answer to his identity.
[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]
The cabbie that shows up with Jack at the end has the same black haze thing happening, and when the sherrif is emanating that stuff, he's not happy. From this, I conclude that at the end, the cabbie isn't dropping by for a quick confab - he's about to open a can of whup- (uh....stuff) on Jack. If Caine can't be bothered with such trivialities, then I'd be inclined to believe it was Vlad. Despite his rep, Vlad had perfectly reasonable motivations for everything he did in life - he wasn't just a straight up psycho nut-bar. He was paying off old debts and doing his best to protect his people from invaders. He might have gone a bit over the top a few times, but trust me - he had more than adequate motivation. Of course, this is all based on the historical Vlad III, Voivode of Wallachia, not the cartoon or movie versions of Vlad. [/QUOTE]
I'm not quite sure why you think the cabbie is about to get involved or, specifically, hurt Jack. But I'm glad to see that a few are beginning to agree with me about him not being Caine!
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twister_nt
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- Contact:
[QUOTE=Faust]I'm not quite sure why you think the cabbie is about to get involved or, specifically, hurt Jack. But I'm glad to see that a few are beginning to agree with me about him not being Caine![/QUOTE]
You're being real nieve, Faust. Clearly the cab driver is intended to be Caine; as you can see from his sound files. Furthermore, the Malikavian's ramblings further consolidate the theory.
And remember what he says at the end of the game... "Wherever we go, it is the blood of Caine which makes our fate". The manipulation is obvious, Gihad is taking place.
Please excuse the spelling mistakes as I'm not sure how to spell the vampire terms
Great game, shame LeCriox dies in all the endings!
You're being real nieve, Faust. Clearly the cab driver is intended to be Caine; as you can see from his sound files. Furthermore, the Malikavian's ramblings further consolidate the theory.
And remember what he says at the end of the game... "Wherever we go, it is the blood of Caine which makes our fate". The manipulation is obvious, Gihad is taking place.
Please excuse the spelling mistakes as I'm not sure how to spell the vampire terms
Great game, shame LeCriox dies in all the endings!
"woof" indeed.
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yrthwyndandfyre
- Posts: 786
- Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:30 am
- Location: 100 Miles up the butt of the world
- Contact:
It just occurred to me that the endings (at least a couple of them) are given away in the beginning. Specifically, by E., who makes a crack about the "Jack in the Box".
Sic gorgiamos allos subjectatos nunc
(The Addams family motto: Gladly we feast on those who would subdue us)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with Ketchup.
(The Addams family motto: Gladly we feast on those who would subdue us)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with Ketchup.