Idiotic Jedi Masters (spoiler)

Heksefatter · Post by **Heksefatter** » Sun May 01, 2005 8:54 am

I've read a lot about people being dissatisfied with Kotor 2, particulary the ending and loose ends. But am I the only one who thinks that one of the greatest flaws in the game involves the core plot? I am thinking of the Jedi Masters.

Consider this: Revan has revolted. Revan is the greatest military strategist of the age. Revan's officers have more combat experience. Revan's fleet is larger and growing. The Jedi know little about the military and industrial basis at Revan's disposal. They believe that Revan will defeat them, and quite easily at that (that is what you are told in Kotor 1), unless something happens to reverse the situation.

BUT: One of Revan's top generals - the Exile - refuses to participate in the rebellion. Instead s/he returns to the Jedi Council to face judgement. This general has, if nothing else, valuable inside information about the strategies Revan and Revan's officers are likely to utilize. The general also has a lot of real military experience, something that is lacking in the Jedi leadership.

YET: The Jedi Council holds a three-minute trial and then boots the exile, thus losing a great series of advantages in a critical situation. No-one ever comments on that, no-one ever mentions the foolishness of that. Is it possible to be that foolish and still rise to leadership in an organisation that values intelligence and wisdom?

Is there anyone else, who thinks that this is a major flaw in the plot of Kotor 2?

Darth Zenemij · Post by **Darth Zenemij** » Sun May 01, 2005 10:38 am

I came up with that same thing and I was just about to satart another thread on it. The exile hade information on Revan and what not, They were being Ignorant... But I won't even discuss that. But yes I also noticed that, They sould have just kept on making it, beacuse it turned out horrible.

Ergophobia · Post by **Ergophobia** » Sun May 01, 2005 11:47 am

I believe the trial was held after Revan was captured, but I could be wrong. If that is the case, Malak was in charge of the fleet and he used quite other tactics than his former master.

Darth Zenemij · Post by **Darth Zenemij** » Sun May 01, 2005 11:59 am

It was right after the war ended, you came home and they did it. or at least I am pretty sure.

Ripe · Post by **Ripe** » Sun May 01, 2005 12:48 pm

And you think that they learn from the past:
4000 years later young Anakin Skywalker came before Jedi Council to see if he will be trained as a Jedi. Council decides that the boy is full of emotions and that trainig him will be dangerous so they forbid Qui-Gon Jinn to train him. Yet after Qui-Gon get killed by Darth Maul they agree to honor his last request and asign young Anakin as a padawan to Obi-Wan who just finished his training himself. If training Anakin is that dangerous why not give him as padawan to Mace, Yoda, Ki-Adi-Mundi or some other Council member?

Darth Zenemij · Post by **Darth Zenemij** » Sun May 01, 2005 1:14 pm

Maybe beacuse they saw that they were all going to die eventually. Annie is lukes dad (duh!) but it would still make sence for obi to train him and luke and him. I am no expert on the prophacy, but annie was going to have to be trainded by him anyway right. I saw the trailer again and it was sad, anikin- "what you aren't going to neither?! The rest of the jedi council has and why not you?" padame (sp?) "Annie your breaking my heart"

Ripe · Post by **Ripe** » Sun May 01, 2005 3:34 pm

No the Prophecy only state that "he will bring balance to the force" not that he will be trained as a Jedi. It is assumed that he will be but...

And no it does not make sense that because Obi-Wan will train Luke he has to train Annie. If you state that training Anakin is dangerous you DO NOT give him to a teacher that just finished training (it's a question if Obi-Wan actualy finished his training - Council confirm his status as Jedi Knight after he defeated Maul, but before he and Qui-Gon left for Naboo they did not think that Qui-Gon finished with his training of Obi-Wan), you give him to someone who had a lot of experiance teaching.

Heksefatter · Post by **Heksefatter** » Sun May 01, 2005 4:41 pm

Yes, but well, that was one of the recent Star Wars movies, and we all know that they were a load of <censored by the ministry of culture>. I just expected something better from a Kotor game.

But anyway, the movie Jedi were not as stupid as the ones in Kotor 2. After all, Anakin was only a potential threat, wheras Revan was an immediate, red alert threat to the galaxy.

And by the way, the Exile returned at the beginning af Revan's revolt. The Exile says that it was a decade ago, not the five or six years that would fit with Revan's capture.

Crunchy in milk · Post by **Crunchy in milk** » Sun May 01, 2005 5:55 pm

That assumes that no one has been interrogating the exile before arranging for his final judgement. The conversations with the masters throughout the game tend to suggest some where friends and that words passed between them before the final judgement, but after his return from the civil war.

I felt the real stupidity on their part occurred on the light side path. They all willingly teach you new powers and most apologise for your final judgement, some admit their mistakes, all express some hope that you'll reunite everyone and face down this looming threat that they've been hiding from, but come no closer to a solution for.

Then when you succeed in rebuilding what's left of the council, flush with your new abilities and ready to fight the good fight... they suddenly go spineless again and try to strip you of powers? Who stole their brains?

Darth Zenemij · Post by **Darth Zenemij** » Sun May 01, 2005 10:28 pm

I think that it is beacuse that they realized that Kriea was training you.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun May 01, 2005 10:49 pm

Please stay on topic, instead of spinning off to discuss the movies

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Crunchy in milk · Post by **Crunchy in milk** » Mon May 02, 2005 12:16 am

[QUOTE=Darth Zenemij]I think that it is beacuse that they realized that Kriea was training you.[/QUOTE]

No, not at all. They express surprise when Kreia walks into the discussion, believing her dead. Which only happens after they begin to separate you from the force.

I can't help but feel a lot of the more significant story changes based on your light and dark bent where also somewhat cut in the rush to release.

Heksefatter · Post by **Heksefatter** » Mon May 02, 2005 5:17 am

[QUOTE=Crunchy in milk]That assumes that no one has been interrogating the exile before arranging for his final judgement. The conversations with the masters throughout the game tend to suggest some where friends and that words passed between them before the final judgement, but after his return from the civil war.

I felt the real stupidity on their part occurred on the light side path. They all willingly teach you new powers and most apologise for your final judgement, some admit their mistakes, all express some hope that you'll reunite everyone and face down this looming threat that they've been hiding from, but come no closer to a solution for.

Then when you succeed in rebuilding what's left of the council, flush with your new abilities and ready to fight the good fight... they suddenly go spineless again and try to strip you of powers? Who stole their brains?[/QUOTE]

I don't agree with your argument that the Jedi Council could just have interrogated the Exile beforehand. You simply don't get that kind of information with even a solid interrogation. Rather, you will have to use the Exile as a consultant (or General if you dare) in the upcoming war. In that case, you can ask the Exile what tricks Revans is up to when Revan tries a manouvre or whatever. But a great Galactic-scale war is too great a subject to gain the necessary information merely by interogation. You will have to interrogate - of course - and then extract further information continuously.

But on the second part of your posting, I unreservedly agree. What they tried to do to a lightside Jedi was utterly and completely foolish.

qt 3.14159 · Post by **qt 3.14159** » Mon May 02, 2005 9:38 am

My understanding is that the Exile came back immediately following the Mandalorian wars, was exiled and left to the outer rim *before* Revan had begun attacking the Republic.

If that were the case, the Jedi council would not be in need of a General to fight a war or any other strategic advantage. Furthermore, the exile had disconnected herself from the force, so he/she certainly wasn't any good as a Jedi.

The Council tried to strip her of the force at the end because they came to understand that she was a "wound" in the force. Her force powers didn't come from her, but from those around her. She was channeling their force powers. This is why Kreia was so interested in her. She had the ability to destroy the force and bring it to the end.

Heksefatter · Post by **Heksefatter** » Mon May 02, 2005 10:09 am

[QUOTE=qt 3.14159]My understanding is that the Exile came back immediately following the Mandalorian wars, was exiled and left to the outer rim *before* Revan had begun attacking the Republic.

If that were the case, the Jedi council would not be in need of a General to fight a war or any other strategic advantage. Furthermore, the exile had disconnected herself from the force, so he/she certainly wasn't any good as a Jedi.
[/QUOTE]

That is not the case. I recall Master Vrook saying something about that many Jedi have fallen 'to Revan's strength' just prior to the 'trial'.

qt 3.14159 · Post by **qt 3.14159** » Mon May 02, 2005 10:30 am

[QUOTE=Heksefatter]That is not the case. I recall Master Vrook saying something about that many Jedi have fallen 'to Revan's strength' just prior to the 'trial'.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I assumed that it was referring to those who chose to go to war with Revan in spite of the Council's warning. They would consider that any that did not follow their wishes to be "fallen" wouldn't they? Also, repeatedly they make it pretty clear that the Exile doesn't know anything about the Jedi Civil War. Which I also assumed went with the idea that the exile had left republic space before Revan started attacking.

Of course, it could be that I missed something subconsciously because my brain wanted it to make sense. That happens sometimes.

Darth Zenemij · Post by **Darth Zenemij** » Mon May 02, 2005 12:10 pm

[QUOTE=Heksefatter]I don't agree with your argument that the Jedi Council could just have interrogated the Exile beforehand. You simply don't get that kind of information with even a solid interrogation. Rather, you will have to use the Exile as a consultant (or General if you dare) in the upcoming war. In that case, you can ask the Exile what tricks Revans is up to when Revan tries a manouvre or whatever. But a great Galactic-scale war is too great a subject to gain the necessary information merely by interogation. You will have to interrogate - of course - and then extract further information continuously.

But on the second part of your posting, I unreservedly agree. What they tried to do to a lightside Jedi was utterly and completely foolish.[/QUOTE]

Well then they were just being ignorant. They should have used the exile as a general against revan, they should have just questioned you about the mandalorian wars, There was no presence of the dsark side amog her, there was only a wound in the force.

mrthingyx · Post by **mrthingyx** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:59 am

I think a lot of you are missing the bigger picture in KOTOR II. Whilst plot omissions and amputations exacerbate misunderstanding, I think the whole point of the KOTOR series is to point out the deficiencies in the 'religion' at that time - Kreia is forever barking on about the ignorance, arrogance and lethargy of the Jedi Order and the Jedi Masters admit it themselves - the whole game is based around an event that split the galaxy over such lethargy/ignorance.

I think the point of the matter is that the Jedi Masters have to be shown to be less that omniscient in the games (i.e. flawed) to highlight the importance of the progression of the religion, i.e. how truly important the Exile is in effectively rebuilding the Jedi Order as a more (ahem) enlightened concept. Of course, if you choose the way of the Dark Side, the point is moot (you wouldn't have to have met with the remnants of the Council on Dantooine anyway).

On the whole, I think the stories of KOTOR/KOTOR2 would make for some awesome Star Wars films if directed and directed by Ridley Scott or Brian Singer... still, here's hoping for the spin-off TV series.

Heksefatter · Post by **Heksefatter** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:33 am

[QUOTE=mrthingyx]I think a lot of you are missing the bigger picture in KOTOR II. Whilst plot omissions and amputations exacerbate misunderstanding, I think the whole point of the KOTOR series is to point out the deficiencies in the 'religion' at that time - Kreia is forever barking on about the ignorance, arrogance and lethargy of the Jedi Order and the Jedi Masters admit it themselves - the whole game is based around an event that split the galaxy over such lethargy/ignorance.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, but the original Kotor carried that point obviously, but much better. The Jedi Masters in Kotor 2 are not 'flawed' but rather utterly and completely moronic. In Kotor 1, you can understand the Jedi Masters counceling patience, and superficially it seems that their position was vindicated by Revan's revolt. But the more you think about it, you can see that the Jedi were wrong all the way - they should have know that their councel to 'remain patient' demanded such a huge degree of discipline that some younger knights were bound to take matters into their own hands. But in Kotor 2, their behaviour amounts to dooming the galaxy out of principle, and in Kotor 1 we learn that the Jedi ARE willing to bend their principles in such times of crises.

mrthingyx · Post by **mrthingyx** » Tue May 03, 2005 5:30 am

Sure - I think it's a point that could certainly do with more development as the story continues, but it's made all the more prominent by the fact that - despite all that has come to pass - the remaining Jedi Masters are still ignorant, arrogant and unwilling to come to terms with it all. The fact that they feel the Exile must be stripped of his/her power rather than help him fight the Sith is a key point that's made... Kreia highlights this when she pistol-whips them.

I do think it's either very clever or very silly of Obsidian to keep the Jedi Masters steadfast in their ignorance, however. I, for one, think it's a very interesting and potentially pivotal point in the whole saga: the 'old' Order collapses due to its stagnation and a new one is built around the re-kindled exile... the slate is wiped clean with Kreia killing them on Dantooine and it's up to the Exile to start again.

This is also why I think that the ending could have been better thought out - you can choose to follow Revan or return to the Galaxy to bring warning of the impending doom and prepare it for what may come to pass.