Idiotic Jedi Masters (spoiler)

[kheldorin]

[QUOTE=Heksefatter]Yes, but the original Kotor carried that point obviously, but much better. The Jedi Masters in Kotor 2 are not 'flawed' but rather utterly and completely moronic. In Kotor 1, you can understand the Jedi Masters counceling patience, and superficially it seems that their position was vindicated by Revan's revolt. But the more you think about it, you can see that the Jedi were wrong all the way - they should have know that their councel to 'remain patient' demanded such a huge degree of discipline that some younger knights were bound to take matters into their own hands. But in Kotor 2, their behaviour amounts to dooming the galaxy out of principle, and in Kotor 1 we learn that the Jedi ARE willing to bend their principles in such times of crises.[/QUOTE]

That's the point of Kotor 2 isn't it? To show that the Jedi council suffered from its beliefs on dogmatic, theoretical principles. That their "intelligence" and "wisdom" only applies to theoretical situations. That the only way the Jedi could be strong again is to completely revamp its way of thinking and teachings. That's why Atris's academy will fail because it is based on theoretical principles. Even when she held on tightly to these principles, she still fell to the dark side. The point that Kotor 2 was trying to make was that the best way to prevent Jedis from falling to the dark side is not to shield them or protect them from it but to expose them to it and educate them about it. That's why Kreia kept telling the exile not to help people as they would only be weaker for it. Similarly, by protecting Jedis from the dark side, their vulnerability to the dark side would only worsen. That is also why the exile is so special. He is strong enough to resist the influence of the force, whether dark side or light side. The force does not control or guide him, he does.

As to the original question, the decision to boot the exile is "moronic" but if you follow the Jedi Council's logic, it is understandable. First of all, the exile does not follow the same principles as them. By putting the exile in a position of power, they are probably afraid that their own authority will be undermined. Afterall, the exile has disobeyed them before. Furthermore, to them, there is a possibility that the exile could become another Revan as his Jedi principles are somewhat flawed and deficient. That is what forced Kreia to do what she did. Without her interference, there wouldn't be any exile or "Lost Jedis". All of the exile's friends had character flaws that prohibit them from being an orthodox jedi. But Kreia believed that you do not need to follow a specific Jedi code to do good in the world. The world would have been much worse off without them. And if you think about it, it's quite clever. The "Jedis" the exile have found in his journey are not the ones he was looking for.

[Ripe]

Very good points, kheldorin - especialy the one about what "Jedi" you find as opposed to the one you are looking for.

Like you said, while decision to boot Exile before is "moronic" but understandable, what should be said about their actions when you face them on Dantooine? When you face them alone they are all friendly, helpfull (they each teach you force technique) and agreable, but when you face them on Dantooine they try to strip you of your power. Either they are complete idiots who should not be leading the anyone or... Actualy there is no second option (Unless you consider the posibility that Obsidian had some very bad storywriters who did not have idea how to advance the plot. The fact that Kreia kills them using a Force Power she never used before and will never use again is another stupidity on their part).

[pennypincher]

We all know how Jedi get all uptight about "Using other people who are strong in the force".. And messing with their destiny and other nabby pamby rubbish like that... But heres where I draw the line at stupidity:

The number of obvious hints for your character to pick up during the game like a diftful little puppy walking towards a furance following a trail of cookies is just pathetic! The assasin droid?? The grumpy old woman?? The Jedi council... I mean, if I'd been holding his hand all the way and saying: "See that person? That person eevviill.. Oohh.. Watch out." I'm fairly certain my character would have looked at me confused and giggled like a school girl who just said a naughty word! Where were the speech options like:
"Your clearly a robot sent to kill me, and it's obvious you killed everyone else, and your REALLY annoying, so I'm going to waste you."
Or
"Hey, your crazy, angry and frankly you peeve me, so I'm going to shoot you out the air lock"

Mother of mercy!

[Yay]

The evil conspirators at Obsidian eliminated a lot of good dialogue. The link is on the "Why is the ending so crappy?" thread.

There's a dialogue where HK-47 mocks Carth and Bastilla which is hilariously funny in his attepts to impersonate them.

I just finished the game and frankly I get only a small portion of it. All this perversion, curving, warping and disturbing of the force gives me headaches. Plus, I find it totally ridiculous how in the ending:

Kreia basically calmly TELLS YOU an unknown future, and then dies, and then you fly away.


Ha ha ha...

[Space Goat]

[QUOTE=Yay]The evil conspirators at Obsidian eliminated a lot of good dialogue. The link is on the "Why is the ending so crappy?" thread.

There's a dialogue where HK-47 mocks Carth and Bastilla which is hilariously funny in his attepts to impersonate them.

I just finished the game and frankly I get only a small portion of it. All this perversion, curving, warping and disturbing of the force gives me headaches. Plus, I find it totally ridiculous how in the ending:

Kreia basically calmly TELLS YOU an unknown future, and then dies, and then you fly away.


Ha ha ha...[/QUOTE]

Some of the dialogue is dependent on your alignment (or, rather, your influence, a lot of which you can only realistically get if you're aligned a certain way). I'm playing as a Dark Consular/Sith Lord, and I managed to get enough influence with HK-47 to reveal the Carth/Bastila mockery, for example.

[Chimaera182]

[QUOTE=Darth Zenemij]Maybe beacuse they saw that they were all going to die eventually. Annie is lukes dad (duh!) but it would still make sence for obi to train him and luke and him. I am no expert on the prophacy, but annie was going to have to be trainded by him anyway right. I saw the trailer again and it was sad, anikin- "what you aren't going to neither?! The rest of the jedi council has and why not you?" padame (sp?) "Annie your breaking my heart"[/QUOTE]

The real reason Obi-Wan taught Anakin isn't because he "had" to or "fated" to, but because he was "did." Turn to movies IV, V, and VI, where it was brought to light how Kenobi taught Anakin. He *did* train him, so now that we're on movies I, II, and III, of course he's training Anakin. But there had to be some reason for why Anakin fell to the dark side, so they're offering up Kenobi's lack of training in the area and his just being knighted for part of why Anakin fell.

[alpha_hazard]

<My two cents>

Revan and Malak returned from the outer rim long after the exile went into...exile...so there was no way they could have known they would need the information the exile had...

also, who's to say the exile would have cooperated if they had asked the whereabouts of Revan (or indeed, have known him/herself?)

[Chimaera182]

You know what other idiotic thing they did that I found out last night?

You know how Vrook got captured and was to be shipped off to Nar Shaddaa. Of course, I didn't realize this my first two games, but this time I saw there was the option to "help" Azkul's men by strenghtening the shield so Vrook couldn't escape. But he does anyway, and he confronts you after you finish "stabilizing" Dantooine, and he says, "Did you really think they could hold me?" Um... wasn't that the point? Vrook wanted them to take him to Nar Shaddaa, which he makes clear when you free him. He should make up his mind.

[Brockaine22]

If you really payed attention to the game you'l realize they had no choice but to boot him as you said. The Exile is no longer a jedi during the trail. He has chosen to totally cut himself off ffrom the force after malachor in order to survive. Literally he could no longer use a lightsaber without killing himself. As Kreia so candidly puts it in a cut scene a jedi is NOTHING without the force. Although they could have used his knowledge of revans tactics there were tons of people with the same knowledge that were either soldiers in the war or were still jedi etc etc etc. Simply the exile was no longer a jedi and scared the council badly(also said in the game but one of the various masters) Please pay more attention before commenting on the "stupidy of the jedi masters."

[Heksefatter]

[QUOTE=Brockaine22]If you really payed attention to the game you'l realize they had no choice but to boot him as you said. The Exile is no longer a jedi during the trail. He has chosen to totally cut himself off ffrom the force after malachor in order to survive. Literally he could no longer use a lightsaber without killing himself. As Kreia so candidly puts it in a cut scene a jedi is NOTHING without the force. Although they could have used his knowledge of revans tactics there were tons of people with the same knowledge that were either soldiers in the war or were still jedi etc etc etc. Simply the exile was no longer a jedi and scared the council badly(also said in the game but one of the various masters) Please pay more attention before commenting on the "stupidy of the jedi masters."[/QUOTE]

No choice? I always cringe when they say that...But let us look at the facts:

The rank of the Exile in Revan's army: General.

There are NOT tons of people with the same information as a general. In fact there are probably less than twenty. As the Exile was a Jedi general, and one with exceptional charisma, he/she is probably one of the more senior generals. Also, we are told that the exile is the only Jedi who returns to the Council after the Mandalorian Wars. So, the Exile has, without a doubt, information that no-one else can give.

Let me draw a historical analogy. When Julius Caesar rebelled against the Roman Republic, one of his generals, a Titus-something, refused to join him in this. Instead Titus fought against Caesar.

Titus had:
1) Talent.
2) War Experience.
3) Intimate knowledge of Caesar's strategies and other top officers.

That is: The same as the Exile.

Titus was regarded as a prize-catch for the Republic sympathizers. Why should the Exile be any different? I don't buy that the Exile lost his/her strategic skills with the Force. But she/he certainly doesn't lose his/her unique knowledge of the enemy.