Wow That Was Easy (Spoilers)

DarthSion · Post by **DarthSion** » Sun May 01, 2005 1:53 pm

When i was a sith lord and had force crush i killed Darth Sion and Traya so easily, just pressed it repeatedly.

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Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun May 01, 2005 10:47 pm

Please remember to add a spoiler tag to your thread title when giving out information that could spoil others.
I've added the Spoiler tag for you this time, but please remember it in the future.

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the_limey · Post by **the_limey** » Mon May 02, 2005 5:32 am

Yes, I must say that both Sion and Traya were easier for me as a Consular/Lord than as a Guardian/Weapon Master, but conversely Traya's bloody lightsabres caused me quite a bit of grief this time.
As for force crush, it's a shame that you can't do more with it- such as use it on a single enemy until your force points run out, though I suppose if you could there would be even less challenge to the bosses.

Darth Zenemij · Post by **Darth Zenemij** » Mon May 02, 2005 9:09 am

Yeah, crush is to uber of a power. Just pick up your enemy and throw him down: Repeat.

Ripe · Post by **Ripe** » Mon May 02, 2005 1:29 pm

As for force crush, it's a shame that you can't do more with it- such as use it on a single enemy until your force points run out, though I suppose if you could there would be even less challenge to the bosses.

Limey you should not said that. You know the story about pesimist and optimist on a sinking ship (falling plane, etc.)?
Pesimist said: "It cannot get worse than this." Optimist reply: "O yes, it can."

Considering that "bosses" in KotoR II were much easier to defeat than "bosses" in KotoR, if they continue to increase force powers strength like they did from KotoR to KotoR II, KotoR III would be a joke. Who ever work on KotoR III should balance force powers before doing anything else, or at least abandon Force Points idea and link force use to your Vitality Points (like it is in SW P'n'P RPG). Jedi classes in both KotoR games is extremly unbalanced, no matter what stupid choice you made with character creation and leveling up you allways end with an Uber character able to kill everything in the room with ease.

Darth Zenemij · Post by **Darth Zenemij** » Mon May 02, 2005 1:32 pm

[QUOTE=Ripe]Limey you should not said that. You know the story about pesimist and optimist on a sinking ship (falling plane, etc.)?
Pesimist said: "It cannot get worse than this." Optimist reply: "O yes, it can."

Considering that "bosses" in KotoR II were much easier to defeat than "bosses" in KotoR, if they continue to increase force powers strength like they did from KotoR to KotoR II, KotoR III would be a joke. Who ever work on KotoR III should balance force powers before doing anything else, or at least abandon Force Points idea and link force use to your Vitality Points (like it is in SW P'n'P RPG). Jedi classes in both KotoR games is extremly unbalanced, no matter what stupid choice you made with character creation and leveling up you allways end with an Uber character able to kill everything in the room with ease.[/QUOTE]

And yet another problem with RPG's

Ripe · Post by **Ripe** » Mon May 02, 2005 5:34 pm

No it is not problem with RPG. All classes function fine in P'n'P game (they are more or less balanced, just like classic RPG). The problem is in the way those classes are transfered by Bioware and Obsidian in both KotoR games. If they transfered it corectly they would work fine, and would be balanced. And rulebook came out before first game (it came out before AotC actualy) so they could not said they didn't have a rules.
It is actualy suprising considering good job Bioware did with NWN and transfer of 3rd ed rules.

mrthingyx · Post by **mrthingyx** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:13 am

But surely the point of being a massively powerful Jedi would be that one could just walk around doing almost anything they wanted? On a theoretiical level, a single Jedi should be able to take out vast amounts of people without breaking sweat. You don't think their reputation is based on getting their asses handed to them at each point and turn, do you?

Admittedly, in an RPG it must be balanced to ensure continuity of gameplay, but surely there should be more powerful baddies (in both senses of 'more) for the player's character to test themselves against rather than simply opting to weaken the PC? Whilst it would be easier to do the latter, it would be a lot more interesting to do the former.

In later levels, it does get quite easy to stroll around and deal with enemies at leisure but there is always something to keep the game interesting for me. Those of you who complain about it being to easy when using "forcecrushforcecrushforcecrushforcecrush" should probably take a look at how you play the game rather than criticise it. However, if a Jedi knew that he or she would be in danger if they didn't apply such a technique, do you think they'd steer clear of it "just to keep things interesting?"

Admittedly, this is all conjecture but I don't feel the need to criticise the makers of the game simply because I rock and all t3h S1tHz0r l4m3rz ph34r me, can I?

Ripe · Post by **Ripe** » Wed May 04, 2005 12:33 am

Yes Jedi are great warriors and they sould, at least in theory, be able to take out a vast amount of enemies without breaking sweat. The problem is that it is only theory. And beside that when you reach Trayus Academy you do not face ordinary opponents - you face Sith Mauraders, Assasins and Lord with some Elite Commandoes and you still dispatch them without breaking a sweat (just for record - I played as Sentinel/Watchmen, so no Force Crush).

As for Jedi reputation of beeing great warriors: During the time of Republic, Jedi served the role that is a mixture of the role Police forces and United Nations are serving in our world. Sure, in time of crisis (like Clone Wars) Jedi would supplement regular military force as leaders (Exile was General, while Revan and Malak leaded entire Republic army during Mandalorian Wars, Yoda was ordering Clones during Battle on Geonosis etc.) and "special force" units while majority of military force were ordinary non-Jedi individuals. That means that most of their combat was agains various Smuggler outfits, swoop gangs and other criminals that were usualy just a group of individuals not trained to operate as a single unit, the way organized military squads are.
They also choose their battles wisely - they knew when to fight, and when to run. What I mean is: Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon easily destroyed ordianary battle droids on Trade Federation ship, but they run away when they face two Droidekas with shield emiters.

Super Lord Jedi · Post by **Super Lord Jedi** » Wed May 04, 2005 1:24 am

Dark side crush is kinda takes a lotta force points and its hard to crush kreia's floating lightsabers while the others lightsabers swoop at you. Plus it take all the fun out of lightsaber dueling

mrthingyx · Post by **mrthingyx** » Wed May 04, 2005 6:17 am

[QUOTE=Ripe]...[/QUOTE]

I think that's the entire point of the 'KOTOR' series of game - making the distinction between what the Jedi used to be and what they became. A lot is made of Revan and the Exile knowing and understanding war and how to fight it in comparison to the majority of Jedi who turning their noses up at the mere notion.

NPCs in KOTOR II continually mock the Jedi for their 'softly, softly' approach to life and all its entanglements and are genuinely surprised/shocked when the Exile shows them how badass a Jedi can actually be - the sparring with the Handmaiden and the various Mandalorians for instance, together with Mandalores cutting remarks are exemplary in this instance.

This is why a Jedi who takes in both sides of combat - both the physical and those techniques that use the force - is probably doubly as effective as a Jedi that uses only the force or a 'mere' soldier such as Mandalore. The whole point of a hard nut of a Jedi master just being able to walk into the Trayus Acedemy and wipe the floor with the Sith minions is used as an example of how much potential a Jedi truly has when reaching the epitomy of both physical and 'spiritual' prowess... true, the situation is made much easier by using stimulants and shielding but the point remains. In the Trayus Academy, it was a lot easier for my supremely wise and charismatic Jedi master to 'stasis' three Sith Marauders and then Force Wave or Storm them into oblivion. Atton hints at something in one of various conversations with him, the easy way to kill a Jedi is not with a blaster or trying to go "mano a mano" with him... so why should a Jedi master try and do the same with somebody who he'she knows or suspects to have a higher pain tolerance and be more handy with the lightsaber than he/she is?

But then, this is all conjecture.

Ripe · Post by **Ripe** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:02 am

In the Trayus Academy, it was a lot easier for my supremely wise and charismatic Jedi master to 'stasis' three Sith Marauders and then Force Wave or Storm them into oblivion.

And it should not be. In fact your offensive force powers should be of very limited use against another force user (if not down right useless). Jedi's battle prowes come not from combat training (it does not hurt to have one, but it make no difference either way), but from inner understanding of the force and willingness to either be guided by force (which is a way of the Jedi) or to submit force under your will (the way of the Sith). That insight come in a way of predicting your opponents attack so you may start to counter it even before he made his attack (some masters of the force actualy fight 2 or 3 "moves" ahead).

Atton hints at something in one of various conversations with him, the easy way to kill a Jedi is not with a blaster or trying to go "mano a mano" with him...

Atton said that killing a Jedi with blaster or "mano a mano" is not easy way to do it. That does not mean it's imposible to do it. A high level solder or some sharpshooter could do it but it would not be easy (he would have a max 2-3 shots) and price of failure is usually death. Take Jango Fett as a example: Mace Windu killed him in two moves when he tried to kill him, but in earlier scene we saw Jango kill Cerean Jedi with 3 well placed blaster shots.

Jedi are better in combat because of the force, but you should keep in mind that most of the offensive force powers ONLY exist in SW universe in KotoR games - they are not mentioned in any of the movies, novels, comics or P'n'P rulebooks. On top of that both Bioware and Obsidian choose to ignore one of iconic force powers: Move Object (remember Vader throwing items on Luke or stealing Blaster from Han's hand or Luke "calling" lightsaber in Wampa cave in Empire?)

But aside everything else when I play a RPG game (which both KotoR games claim they are) I expect to be chalenged by my opponents. KotoR succeded in that regard with couple of difficult combats. KotoR II suck in that regarg because it was walk in the park since begining - there is not one seriously dangerous combat in entire game - it took me more time to listen to conversation then defeating all the bosses in the game without using Storm, Choke, Wave or Stasis. If that does not mean that Jedi characters are unbalanced then I do not know what does.

Don't get me wrong, I'll buy KotoR III when it become available, but I'm afraid that whoever does it will spend more time improving graphics, sound and other technical details (which is pointless - they're fine now) then doing what is important - improving gameplay and fixing character classes and force powers to make game chalenging.