Who would you suggest?

kams · Post by **kams** » Thu May 12, 2005 9:05 am

You know, druid's Iron Skin and bard's Stone Skin are pretty similar... with only one exeption.

Jaheira will have only 1, maybe 2 Iron Skins through SoA. And if you want Iron Skin, you will have to sacrifice all other 6 level spells (such as Summon Fire Elemental).

Bard on the other hand can use a lot of Stone Skins - he is just a support caster after all and he does not need a lot of 4 level spells.

And another point is beatiful Tenser's Transformation. With this spell Haer'Dalis will become a death-machine! This spell transforms him to a fighter of similar level.
And do you remember, who is the fastest to get those levels?

Erenor · Post by **Erenor** » Thu May 12, 2005 11:16 pm

[QUOTE=Astafas]A Blade is far more than what you suggest. Have you seen a Dual-Wielding, Stoneskinned, Mirror-Imaged, Blurred and Aggressive Spin-Hasted Haer'Dalis on Tensor's? Probably the best fighter you'll ever see, if only for a shorter period...[/QUOTE]

The only problem I see here is that you're casting four spells and mentioning a limited special ability. You have to know what's ahead and use up a lot of spell slots to create this amazing, whirling death that is Haer'Dalis. I think it would be faster and easier just to use Jaheira with Iron Skin and Summon Insects or Insect Plague. She's a great fighter when well equiped and a healer when that is required. I vote for Jaheira, as annoying as she can be sometimes...

kams · Post by **kams** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:15 am

Whatever.

But Haer'Dalis beats the crap out of Jaheira in 1 on 1 battle. That's for sure - I checked that yesterday.
They both were in my party and I have just finished SoA. (Jah just got level 14 druid). Their equipment was up to date.

Nizidramanii'yt · Post by **Nizidramanii'yt** » Fri May 13, 2005 2:03 am

This is really starting to get going.
I'm glad you all posted your different opinion.
It's just that you are all feverishly defending your favourite character since this is based on your own subjective opinion and your experience with the game( and i couldn't ask anyone to be entirely objective since they couldn't be, now could they...)that there can never be any clear winner.
Which leads to only one conclusion:I couldn't have made any mistake in the first place since they are all great NPC's.
But this is how i decided in the end...and how probably some of you reasoned as well...
They all fill the tanking part that's for sure...
So what else do they add...
Anomen__>Cleric spellbook which is covered by Viconia
Haer'Dalis__>Mage spellbook which is covered extensively by Edwin
Jaheira__>Druid spellbook and for that i have no one else
And one more reason to add Jaheira...otherwise Viconia would be alone with 5 male characters...nothing she couldn't handle on her own but still...it would balance the party out

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Fri May 13, 2005 2:04 am

[QUOTE=Erenor]The only problem I see here is that you're casting four spells and mentioning a limited special ability. You have to know what's ahead and use up a lot of spell slots to create this amazing, whirling death that is Haer'Dalis. I think it would be faster and easier just to use Jaheira with Iron Skin and Summon Insects or Insect Plague. She's a great fighter when well equiped and a healer when that is required. I vote for Jaheira, as annoying as she can be sometimes...[/QUOTE]

There seem to be some communication problems here: as already stated twice now, I also recommend Jaheira as the party would otherwise miss out on the Druid Spells. I'm merely objecting to Ellester's view on Bards...

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:59 am

[QUOTE=kams]Whatever. But Haer'Dalis beats the crap out of Jaheira in 1 on 1 battle. That's for sure - I checked that yesterday.
They both were in my party and I have just finished SoA. (Jah just got level 14 druid). Their equipment was up to date.[/QUOTE]

Then I doubt you've used her correctly. How did you start? Both with all the protections up and running, or did you have them start from scratch?

kams · Post by **kams** » Fri May 13, 2005 5:19 am

They both started in the same time, firstly placing Stone (Iron) Skin on themselves.
Then Dalis places Tenser's Transformation and started to hurt poor lonely girl. She tried to summon insects (which is useless against fighter of such level) or summon elemental - it didn't work, cuz she runs out of Iron Skin too fast - even if I unequip Dalis's Celestial Fury (which is perfect against spell caster because it does electrical damage).

So against transformed Dalis she can not cast any spells. And she can not take him with weapons ether. (I did not try the "run away tactics" - everything happening like it is in druids circle).

I tried three times - and Jah survived Transformation only once - when she was lucky enough to cast Earth Elemental. But even then Dalis beated her after he became a bard again and could use his spells (some quikly-casting spells to avoid missing them to insect swarm - like) and offensive spin.

Dalis had Cutthroat +4 and Celestial Fury +3, and some kind of chain mail from Black Dragon in Elven city.
Jahira had Blackblood +3 and some good shield (I don't remember which one - but it was really good - like Shield of Harmony or something). And Red Dragon Armor.

Chrizum · Post by **Chrizum** » Fri May 13, 2005 6:08 am

One on one fights don't say that much really, unless you're letting 2 pure identical classes (ie fighters) battling it out.

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Fri May 13, 2005 6:52 am

[QUOTE=kams]They both started in the same time, firstly placing Stone (Iron) Skin on themselves. Then Dalis places Tenser's Transformation and started to hurt poor lonely girl. [/QUOTE]

So you cast the two major spells with Haer Dalis, the spells that make him a huge tank, meanwhile you cast one pathetic spell with Jaheria. I'm sorry, but that is not fair, not only were the spell choices biased, Haer got 2 and Jaheria got 1. Try casting good spells with Jaheria such as Globe of Blades or Blade barrier, then see who wins the fight.

When doing tests, you must make it a fair fight.

kams · Post by **kams** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:06 am

[QUOTE=Chrizum]One on one fights don't say that much really, unless you're letting 2 pure identical classes (ie fighters) battling it out.[/QUOTE]

Guy, who started this tread, wanted another tank in his group. And for tank it does really matters, if they can win 1 on 1.

kams · Post by **kams** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:18 am

[QUOTE=dj_venom]So you cast the two major spells with Haer Dalis, the spells that make him a huge tank, meanwhile you cast one pathetic spell with Jaheria. I'm sorry, but that is not fair, not only were the spell choices biased, Haer got 2 and Jaheria got 1. Try casting good spells with Jaheria such as Globe of Blades or Blade barrier, then see who wins the fight.

When doing tests, you must make it a fair fight.[/QUOTE]

So you call Stone Skin a major spell, while Iron Skin - pathetic? They are pretty the same, you know.

And for the Tenser's Transformation - Dalis casts it only if Jaheira is casting another spell (Elemental summoning or whatever). If she does not cast another spell and just attacking him - he makes her life short in melee battle (with "instant" spells which don't require casting time and his offensive spin).

And don't think that I was trying to handle Jaheira poorly - I really wanted to see who is better tank.
Jaheira's problem is that she has very few high-level spells (1 seventh and 2-3 sixth) and it is difficult to choose them from the variety of her magic.
You want to summon some allies? Alright! But forget about Iron Skin!

btw, I still haven't got HLA for her and for Haer'Dalis. As I have posted earlier - the battle between them was in pocket plane just after finishing SoA.
But if they were to fight with HLA - then I pity for her even more! Dalis will slash her apart with Carsomir.
And what weapon will have Jah? Yamato +4? Pfeh!

Thrifalas · Post by **Thrifalas** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:25 am

[QUOTE=dj_venom]So you cast the two major spells with Haer Dalis, the spells that make him a huge tank, meanwhile you cast one pathetic spell with Jaheria. I'm sorry, but that is not fair, not only were the spell choices biased, Haer got 2 and Jaheria got 1. Try casting good spells with Jaheria such as Globe of Blades or Blade barrier, then see who wins the fight.

When doing tests, you must make it a fair fight.[/QUOTE]

What he said - Iron skin is a lvl5 spell, while Stoneskin is a lvl4 and Tenser lvl6. You cannot possibly put twice the spell levels on Haer, if anything it's Jaheira that should have twice the spell levels as she's more a caster than Haer.

kams · Post by **kams** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:48 am

LIke I said:

If Jah is casting anything - then Haer casts Transformation and kicks her butt. She does not have any spell to counter Tenser's Transformation.

If Jah is not casting but attacking him - Haer still kicks her butt with instant spells and spin.

Simple.

One addition though:
In one of my tries I tried to cast Insect Swarm with Jah - but it didn't work. And I don't remember why - ether Haer did a sucsessful save or this spell does not work on party members (I directed the spell on Haer though).

But even if worked - I am sure it would not do any difference for Transformed Dalis.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:01 am

I believe Insect Swarm eats Stoneskin, so if that's the case, then it matters a lot.

And who cares about UAI and Carsomyr? He can only hit one or two times per round with that. Try Jaheira with Greater Whirlwind, Hardiness and whatever. I'm fairly sure a Fighter/Druid beats a bard when it comes to HLA's.

I wish I could try it out myself, but I'm currently unable to play the game. Why don't you try buffing both to the max, and then have them go one on one. Frankly, I'd be interested to see who wins then.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:01 am

[QUOTE=Thrifalas]What he said - Iron skin is a lvl5 spell, while Stoneskin is a lvl4 and Tenser lvl6. You cannot possibly put twice the spell levels on Haer, if anything it's Jaheira that should have twice the spell levels as she's more a caster than Haer.[/QUOTE]

A very strange argument. The two characters will of course cast the most appropriate spells available, or go to attack. A fair fight doesn't consist of both characters necessary doing the same thing, casting the same spells/amount of levels etc. Why don't you give Kams your idea of how Jaheira should act against H'D?

I'd say her best chance is to cast Insect Plague first in order to stop the Tenser. Still, if H'D sees her cast it and attacks with Offensive Spin she might not get it off... And therein lies one of the problems with these tests: normally H'D would not know which spell Jaheira is casting. If he presume it to be Iron Skin he may opt for Stone Skin himself. But if she then in fact threw Insect Plague he would have a hard time to activate Tenser's afterwards...

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:04 am

[QUOTE=Sytze]And who cares about UAI and Carsomyr? He can only hit one or two times per round with that.[/QUOTE]

You shoud read the despricption of Tenser's Transformation and Offensive Spin.

kams · Post by **kams** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:22 am

[QUOTE=Astafas]
I'd say her best chance is to cast Insect Plague first in order to stop the Tenser. Still, if H'D sees her cast it and attacks with Offensive Spin she might not get it off... And therein lies one of the problems with these tests: normally H'D would not know which spell Jaheira is casting. If he presume it to be Iron Skin he may opt for Stone Skin himself. But if she then in fact threw Insect Plague he would have a hard time to activate Tenser's afterwards...[/QUOTE]

You are right, but I tried to make their combat as fair as possible - since they started at the same time.

Just to notice:
Stone Skin and Iron Skin are instant spells - so they both use those spells in the very beginning.

And even if Jaheira casts Insect Swarm on Dalis he will still have time to finish casting Tenser's Transformation, because Stone Skin do not wear off instantly.
Insect Swarm does minor damage every round at long period of time, and Stone Skin will take some of that damage and will give Dalis all the time he needs.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:28 am

[QUOTE=kams]Insect Swarm does minor damage every round at long period of time, and Stone Skin will take some of that damage and will give Dalis all the time he needs.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, that could be correct... Well, let's see if the Jaheria fans will come up with another strategy. I for one favor H'D in this fight.

Nizidramanii'yt · Post by **Nizidramanii'yt** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:55 am

They don't need to.I've gotten my answers.Thank you all for posting.I'd say end the thread since it's getting out of hand and pointless to pit characters against themselves in deathmatches.These characters are so much more than that.

kams · Post by **kams** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:05 am

[QUOTE=Nizidramanii'yt]They don't need to.I've gotten my answers.Thank you all for posting.I'd say end the thread since it's getting out of hand and pointless to pit characters against themselves in deathmatches.These characters are so much more than that.[/QUOTE]

But it's just fun - to make them fight each other! Don't you agree?
I, for one, had never done it before, and I can tell it is quite intesting to watch their duel.
(This thought appeared when I watched how easily Keldorn dispatched Viconia in my party).

Now I am looking forward to see how that goody-goody paladin will feel against Korgan. Or may be against Mazzy? I have not desided it yet...

btw, It is good that you can have all your NPC in Pocket Plane - you can easily make them duel.
(Although their equipment will be not very good - since all players sell some good stuff, which they can not use.
And some casters will not have some essential spells - you will have to buy them first.)