Starting again, Power-party?

[TybudX]

{Hello!} all!

I stopped playing IWDII after getting a few chapters in a long while back due to an... {Um...} addiction, of sorts. Anybody who's in the know will have figured it out by now >_<.

Anyways, I'm a power gamer at heart, and like to get the most out of my play experience the first time through, so I was wondering if I could get some help planning out a good party. Here's what I have so far...

Sorcerer (pure DD) - taking this all the way, race? skills? spells? Remember, DD first. edit - maybe Drow for this, planning on taking the party into HoF after the first run through.

Cleric (most likely battle) - another pure class, Human for this? Will be back up tank, so Sword & Board?

Shield Dwarf Fighter4/ BarbarianXX - this one is simple, main tank. Any good Feats/weapons/armour I should focus on?

Deep Gnome Rogue3/ MonkXX - for {Sneak Attack} and scouting, as well as a little support. Once again, skills/Feats?

...and for a fifth, I would like maybe a Bard/Sorcerer, but only take Bard to Extended Song (or whatever it is) and the Sith song. Would be group buff/debuffer, and take care of locks and such with spells. Is this at all worth while? What levels of each would be optimal for what I am getting at? If not, I was thinking RogueXX/Ranger1 (race/skills/etc.?), dual wielding short swords.
edit - I guess it would be Bard11/SorcererXX.

I know some people see Bard as a less desirable class, and dualing two mage classes isn't a good idea, but I figured that with a battle oriented Cleric, a Monk, and a Barbarian, some dedicated support will be needed.

Now, please, try to give each item a little consideration before going off on the Bard =P. It doesn't help if the rest of the paty is still crap, after all ^^. Oh, and I'd like to stay away from the specialty races except for the Deep Gnome, as I feel it's abilities help the class combo out a great deal. Other than that, I don't like the xp hit.

edit again =P - I will be using the Weimer Ease of Use mod as well as the Undead Targo's mod, but... how the %#*@ do I download them?! I'm at the main page for the mods (there are four thumbnails with links to the mod sections), but I don't see any way to get them from here. What the?!

final edit - and a big >_< for being a moron. Ignore the downlaoding the mods remark, I figured it out.

[Grimar]

hi! welcome to GB!

i'm still new to the game, but i may have some advice.

first ability points. if you make the rogue your main character and give him high int and cha, he should stand for the talking. the rest of your party now have no use for cha and int(except for sorc/bard). i made a monk with 1 cha and 3 int, and a lot in wis and dex, and he kicks ass. same with barbarian and fighter. not sure if this works through the whole game, but it have worked so far.

for feats, dont take improved initiative! it is bugged, and dont work.

thats all for now. hope it helped some.

and btw, your party sounds fine! remember to read kayless guide to multi classing for some advice!

[TybudX]

Thanks!

I already read the guide, and tried to stay away from poor class combos, save the Bard/Sorcerer. I figured I'd give that one all the Diplomacy Skills, seeing as he/she won't be getting any STR, DEX, or CON. I guess I'll have to see how it goes, though.

Oh, and thanks for the Initiative tip, it's usuallt one of the firrst Feats I take around lvl 6 or so for my melee >_<. That's too bad.

[walther911]

Sounds fairly good... in my party i took a Rogue 1/Wizard x because with the high intelligence you can cope with the traps and locks no problems. I think with the monk extras you are going to be struggling - you need str, dex, con, int and char so you're gonna have to compromise in terms of power gaming. Deep gnome also has a level penalty, which isnt bad for monk but awful for wizard in my case!
In terms of sorc race i would go human, maybe aasimar. Ideally (its a spellcasters game) you would go for more than one caster so you can specialise one into an "area effect" guy: with web, grease, cloud-kill, fireballl.... (and maybe spikes, spike stones etc as well if you have a druid). This can seperate the ranks of enemies.
I like your fighter but i recomend going for two-handed weapon, especially axes (cos then you can split to have a shield later too). However, with your battleguard cleric, you get axes anyway (dont you?) so something to thinl about. Cleric NEEDS conc if hes gonna be a fighter.
Your bard can be quite good, but it seems a waste to make him a sorc because you get limited additional spells. Sorcs can be quite good at diplomacy etc too, I'd pick one or the other. Regardless, bull-headed is a good feat if you want to do ALL the "talking" skills. This character also needs good intelligence i guess, for casting and talking skills.

[silverdragon72]

.

[QUOTE=silverdragon72].

didn't find it but I will just post some ( ) points that should be helpfull:


if you plan to play HOF you should consider the following:


- AC if not extremly high (60-80) is obsolete - no need to care if you have AC 35 or 38 - cause it just doesn't matter!

- so you need to rely on spells like MI, blur, blink, prot. missiles and/or summons

- you will have a very hard time to take out all enemies in melee if you haven't disabled them first!

- damage based spells like DBFB won't help much as most enemies have 200 to 500 sometimes even more HP!

- so what you really need is WotB, malison, Symbol: hopelessness

- even with a party of six (and some decent but well-thought level squatting) you will reach level 30 ~ at Kuldahar in your HOF game



so with this in mind let's talk about party creation:


- pure melee PC are weak! even if barbs and monks looks cool on the 1st look - they definetly aren't!

- there aren't any powerfull SC builds - so go for MC-builds!

- every PC should have at least one caster class!

- if you have a look at the caster classes you will see that you don't get much for additional levels beyond ~20!

- a good MC-builds has one major class (caster) with ~20 levels and a few mix-in classes (level 1-4)

- using ~20 levels for your major class this gives you ~10 levels for mix-in classes! these mix-in classes should be +/- one level apart to avoid EXP-penalties! so you can have a 4 - 3 - 3 combination or a 3 - 3 - 2 - 2 combination!



- best things you get from mix in classes:

- all: 3 levels give the best boni on saves!

- rogue: evasion, sneak attack & SP - recommended 3 levels

- fighter: feats(!), free feats, HP, BAB - recommended 2 or 4 (for weap. exp.)levels

- monk: WIS-boni to AC, evasion, saves, speed - recommended 3 levels

- pal: CHA-boni to saves, immunity fear, PAL-quest & using CS - recommended 2 (or 3) levels

- barb (if you have a non-lawfull PC that can't take monk): speed, BAB, HP, rage - recommended 2 levels

- wiz: as mix-in just for the defensive buffs: shield, MI(!), blur & (blink) recommended 4 or 5 (bonus feat but EXP-hit!) levels

- cleric: as mix-in just to use domain boni, DM-quest, cast divine scrolls - recommended 2 levels

- sorc: not recommended as mix-in!

- bard: not recommended as mix-in!

- ranger: not recommended as mix-in - the 2 free feats you can better get from fighter or wizard levels!!!



now for the races:


drows & DG rule! - don't care about beeing considered 2 or 3 levels higher or being sunblinded - if you fight outside (what doesn't happen that much - and if so - fight at night!)

- both have SR and especially drows good stat boni!

- drows have favourite class cleric (female) or wizard (male) the 2 major classes you will need most!

- DG have a racial +4 AC boni so they are best choice for high AC builds


aasimar & humans (humans for special builds only) are also good choices - tieflings aren't that bad - but I wouldn't take one a 2nd time!


- aasimars have WIS & CHA boni !!! good choice for sorcs, monks, clerics, druids & paladins - but be carefull with the exp-hit!

- humans get extra feat and SPs - so if you have a low INT PC that needs an extra SP per level - humans are a good choice!


general:

fighting with 2 weapons is best IMHO:

- no good shields available

- I know they do less damage then 2-handed weapons (with a high STR PC)

- but there are very good off-hand weapons available with very nice magical effects or damage - so better have 2 items with magical effects then only one!!!


.[/QUOTE]

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=silverdragon72].


my party:


I always reload when a PC dies - fights were I need to reload in the normal game:

- targos palisade (due to using the ultra hard undead targos mod): 4 attempts
- toraks camp (due to using the ultra hard undead targos mod): 3 attempts
- BS: a few reloads caused by not killing enemy in time
- last chamber of 8 chambers quest: 2 attempts
- 4 iron golems at monastry grave: 3 attempts
- guardian: 3 attempts

afterwards I finished the game without anyone dying in battle!

no one died in HOF so far (chapter 2 right now)

so I think you could consider this as a *very* powerfull party!


1st PC:

role: melee-fighter - support arcane caster

race: drow male

alignement: chaotic good

stats: STR 18 - DEX 20 - CON 16 - INT 17 - WIS 4 - CHA 5

comment on stats: increase INT (20) and STR - you don't need WIS that much cause of your SR and +2 will saves (drow) - later you get better will saves from the wiz-levels and you can use protection spells!

major class: wizard 20

mix-ins: rogue 3 - fighter 4 - barb 3

order of levels:

1st rogue
after 5th: rogue 2 - fighter 2 - barb 1
after 25th: rogue 2 - fighter 2 - barb 1 - wizard 20
final: rogue 3 - fighter 4 - barb 3 - wizard 20

most important spells: all defensive & stat buffs - in general spells without a save - as you don't have that high INT nor GSF!

most important feats: imp. critcal, EW:BS (using some of weimars mod BS), PA, cleave, ambidex, 2-WF, dirty tricks

skills: open lock & dis. dev., concentration - all maxed + hide & move sil.

general comments: backbone of the party in normal game - no problems to master battle-square at level 9! does 50% of the kills in the normal game! Due to the defensive arcane buffs very capable in melee-combat even in HOF!



2nd PC:

role: melee-fighter - support divine caster

race: drow female

alignement: lawfull neutral (must!)

stats: STR 14 - DEX 20 - CON 14 - INT 13 - WIS 14 - CHA 5

comment on stats: increase INT (14) and WIS - you get additional 4 WIS through the dreadmaster quests! you need 13 for com. exp. and casting level 3 arcane spells later - go for 14 INT for 1 additonal SP


major class: cleric 15 (don't need level 9 spells)
mix-ins: rogue 3 - fighter 4 - monk 3 - wizard 5 (5th level late - exp-hit!)

order of levels:

1st rogue
after 4th: rogue 2 - fighter 2
after 19th: rogue 2 - fighter 2 - cleric 15 (dreadmaster)
final: rogue 3 - fighter 4 - monk 3 - cleric 15 - wizard 5

most important spells: all defensive & stat buffs - in general spells without save- as you don't have that high WIS/INT nor GSF! - heal !!!

most important feats: imp. critcal, EW:BS (using some of weimars mod BS), PA, cleave, ambidex, 2-WF, dirty tricks, comb. exp.

skills: concentration & pick-pocket maxed + hide & move sil.

general comments: secondary melee fighter & secondary cleric of the party - does 25% of the kills in the normal game! - due to extremly high AC melee-capable in HOF



3rd PC:

role: main cleric

race: aasimar female (gender doesn't matter)

alignement: lawfull good (must)

stats: STR 10 - DEX 18 - CON 14 - INT 3 - WIS 20 - CHA 15

comment on stats: increase CHA (16) and WIS - you get additional 2 WIS 4 CHA through the paladin quests!

major class: cleric ilmater 25 (25 for breaking SR and special spells like dispel magic)
mix-ins: PAL 2 - monk 3 (both ilmater)


order of levels:

1st paladin
after 21th: paladin 1 - cleric 20
after 25th: paladin 2 - monk 3 - cleric 20 (monk late & squatted - afterwards exp-hit!))
final: paladin 2 - monk 3 - cleric 25 (all ilmater)

most important spells: summon undead - heal - defensive buffs - offensive divine spells - excellent WIS-boni -therefore very hard to save against!


most important feats: GSF necro, combat feats, martial weapon great sword, comb. exp. - will give her ambidex & 2-WF late (can't use shield as a monk and CS is one-handed!

skills: concentration maxed + spellcraft (10 for elemental feats if needed)

general comments: main divine caster & secondary melee-fighter - due to extremly high AC melee-capable in HOF



4th PC:

role: main arcane caster

race: aasimar female (gender doesn't matter)

alignement: lawfull good (must)

stats: STR 11 - DEX 18 - CON 18 - INT 3 - WIS 10 - CHA 20

comment on stats: increase CHA

major class: sorceress 25/28 (for breaking SR, damage multiplier uncapped spells & special spells like lower resistance)

mix-ins: PAL 2 - optional: fighter 2 - rogue 1


order of levels:

1st & 2nd paladin
after 27th: paladin 2 - sorceress 25
final: paladin 2 - sorceress 25/28 - optional: fighter 2 - rogue 1 (EXP-hit!)

most important spells HOF: WotB, Symbol: hopelessness, FoD, malison, lower resistance, imp. invis., low level defensive stat buffs for the whole party: stoneskin, prot. miss.!

most important spells normal: fireball, DBF, chain lightning, chromatic orb, icelance!

most important feats: GSF evoc & necro, elemental feats (don't take SP cause you will damage your own party more then the enemy this way!)

skills: concentration maxed & spellcraft 10 for elemental feats

general comments: main arcane caster & and master of mass-destruction especially in HOF: cast symbol: hopelessness and malison from a secondary caster - then walk in the middle of your enemies cast WotB - and nearly everybody drops dead!!! - this build rocks in HOF!



5th PC:

role: diplomat - party-support

race: human female (gender doesn't matter)

alignement: neutral good (neutral is a must)

stats: STR 8 - DEX 12 - CON 10 - INT 14 - WIS 18 - CHA 14

comment on stats: increase DEX 13 or 14, rest WIS - 8 STR aren't needed but it's a pain in the a** if she can't carry anything!

major class: druid 21 (using weimar mod - needed for shapeshifting elemental half-dragon)
mix-ins: bard 9


order of levels:

1st to 5th: bard
6th to 8th: druid (then stop levelling until you can jump to level 21!)
final: bard 9 - druid 21

most important spells: bard defense buffs - druid barkskin for the ultimate AC PCs! - summons - heal


most important feats: GSF evoc & necro, elemental feats

skills: all diplomat skills maxed + concentration, wilderness lore

general comments: diplomat & support PC most of the game - didn't kill any enemy in normal game - keeps out of the action & plays tymoras song most of the time - but low level (8) decrease average party level ! - levelling up to 21 she can shapeshift to the incredible powerfull elemnetal half-dragon (didn't level up & use this feat to avoid imbalancing the game in normal mode!)



6th PC:

role: secondary arcane caster - party-support

race: tiefling male (gender doesn't matter - next time I would conisder a male drow instead)

alignement: chaotic neutral (neutral is a must for using a powerfull item later in the game)

stats: STR 13 - DEX 20 - CON 18 - INT 20 - WIS 6 - CHA 1

comment on stats: increase STR 14, rest INT - 6 WIS gives a little weak will save - getting better through wiz-levles later or use chaotic commands or spells like this

major class: wizard 20

mix-ins: rogue 10


order of levels:

1st: rogue

2nd to 21th: wizard (stop levelling for a while after you have haste & mass haste, don't level up if there are no good spells available!)

final: wizard 20 - rogue 10

most important spells: wiz offensive & defensive buffs your sorc doesn't have !

most important feats: GSF evoc & necro, elemental feats & some combat feats later if you like (you have a massive amount of feats!

skills: alchemy, spellcraft, knowledge arcana, concentration, search maxed + move silent, hide

general comments: not the best PC in this party - but you need him somehow - very good at the beginning (1 or 2 spell-levels higher then your sorc) until your sorc is high enough - identifies all items - and you need an generalist arcane caster for the spells your sorc doesn't have...

...but compared to the sorceress in HOF he is quite weak - but later with the rogue levels and all arcane buffs a good melee-fighter (using M-sword or BBoD)

alternative:

A) instead of the 10 rogue levels use the mix-in from the PC #1

B) skip this PC and use a carbon copy of PC #4 - but give the missing skills knowledge arcana & alchemy to someone else then!




hope this "little" advice helps [/QUOTE]

.

[Mirk]

[QUOTE=TybudX]
Sorcerer (pure DD) - taking this all the way, race? skills? spells? Remember, DD first. edit - maybe Drow for this, planning on taking the party into HoF after the first run through.
[/QUOTE]

From my expierience sorcs are best utilized with one or two 'best' direct damage spells from every level, using the rest of their spells for other types of magic. The best build I had with sorcs was a Human Rogue 1/Sorc X, dubbing as the partie's negotiator
str 10
dex 14 (for some defence and Reflex boost, and Rapid Shot feat)
con 10 (you really don't need it to be higher - maximized Concentration and Combat Casting will take care of any casting disturbancies, and he's gonna have puny hitpoints anyway)
int 16 (for extra skills and extra dialogue options)
wis 8
cha 18 (self-explanatory)

Skills: maxed out Concentration, Diplomacy, Bluff; Spellcraft up to 7 (+3 bonus from Int counts towards elemental feats pre-requesties); what's left I put into Alchemy, since it is referenced in conversation a couple of times, and this char does all the talking anyway. You can switch this to Intimidate to make this one a true Master of Negotiations.

Feats:
Rapid Shot (optional - I just tend to use spellcasters with ranged weapons for all the easy battles)
Expertiese (optional - why not get +5 AC for tough battles, when he's not going to use weapons anyway)
Subvocal Casting (why worry yourself with these)
1 or 2 elemental feats, depending on spells you want to primarily use (I chose Spirit of Flame)
Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus - again, depending on your spells (I had Evocation early on, than added Necromancy for the high-level spells)
Spell Penetration (but you can live without it)

Spells: this sorc was pretty much the only arcane spellcaster in this party, so his spells were a lot more even-spread than usually for the 'nuker' sorcs - but I have to say it was very convinient, I was able to use him differently in according to the tactical challenges. Here's what I consider a must-have at each level:
1: Sleep, Magic Missile
2: Eagle's Splendor, Web
3: Fireball, Haste, Slow, Skulltrap
4: Stoneskin, Improved Invisibilty, Malison
5: Animate Dead, Chaos, Lower Resistance
6: Improved Haste, Shades
7: Delayed Blast Fireball, Finger of Death
8: Horrid Wilting, Symbol of Hoplesness
9: Wail of the Banshee, Executioner's Eyes



[QUOTE=TybudX]
Cleric (most likely battle) - another pure class, Human for this? Will be back up tank, so Sword & Board?
[/QUOTE]

I've had a good expirience with a Paladin 2/Monk 1/Painbearer X for this role.

[QUOTE=TybudX]
Shield Dwarf Fighter4/ BarbarianXX - this one is simple, main tank. Any good Feats/weapons/armour I should focus on?
[/QUOTE]

Actually, after trying a couple of tank builds I prefer a Shield Dwarf Paldin 2/Fighter XX - but the Ftr/Barb is exellent. As far as weapons are concerned, go with Axes - look here for my reasons.

[QUOTE=TybudX]
Deep Gnome Rogue3/ MonkXX - for {Sneak Attack} and scouting, as well as a little support. Once again, skills/Feats?
[/QUOTE]

I tried the monk once, did'nt like it. I prefer dedicated duel-weilders for the scouting and 'behind enemy lines' builds, as they tend to better utilize the wounderfull items available in the game.

[QUOTE=TybudX]
...and for a fifth, I would like maybe a Bard/Sorcerer, but only take Bard to Extended Song (or whatever it is) and the Sith song. Would be group buff/debuffer, and take care of locks and such with spells. Is this at all worth while? What levels of each would be optimal for what I am getting at? If not, I was thinking RogueXX/Ranger1 (race/skills/etc.?), dual wielding short swords.
edit - I guess it would be Bard11/SorcererXX.
[/QUOTE]

As long as you've got the four major roles covered (Tank, Arcane Caster, Divine Caster, Scout/Rogue), everything else is up to you. A Bard/Sorc will suit you well here - just consider the fact that you do lack somewhat in the Rogue department (your Monk will not have enough points to cover Search/Disable Device/Open Lock).

Another role that I make point of recommending in almost all these 'party advice' posts is a dedicated Sniper build. I'm talking about a char that has only one role in cobat - to shoot the best available ammunition at the most dangerous enemy. The build is not that hard - high Dex, Rapid Shot, Dirty Fighting, Improved Critical, Weapon Specialization Bow and/or Crossbow and/or Sling. The main point is avoid the temptation of adding this role to a spellcaster, because the first thing a spellcaster will (rigtfully) do in a battle is to cast the best spell he can - or a couple of spells. You don't need a dedicated sniper to finish battles after two or thre rounds of powerfull and tactically-efficient spellcasting.
The natural conclusion here is to give this char a second role that by defenition ends as soon as combat begins: the Rogue. All the searching/de-trapping/lockpicking can be done by this char - thus enabling another char to focus on stealth skills (which might as well be your Rogue/Monk).


Enjoy!

[TybudX]

Some great things to consider... I really can't wait for the game to get here now >_<! For some dumb reason, I included my last copy (along with the first Icewind Dale, BG, BGII & SoA, and Torment ) when I sold my last PC. Boy, am I kicking myslef now!

Anyways, to Mirk, I see what you are saying about needing a dedicated Sniper, as well as a dedicated Rogue... is there any way to get that without sacrificing the party support role I am trying to get from the Bard/Sorcerer? I was intending to have that character do all the helpful AoE spells such as Web, Sleep, Slow, and such, as well as covering things like diplomacy, bard related buffs, and finding traps/disabling.

Now that I read a bit more, I seem to remember Bard already gaining Sorcerer spells, albiet at a slower pace, no? Could I not just cut Sorcerer out of the equation here, and go Bard11/RogueXX, and grab some of the ranged attack feats you mentioned? I'm assuming Lingering Song is a feat in this game; if not, I may have to scrap this idea altogether.

To Silverdragon72... wow. Yeah, you're a powergamer, through and through! Ok, so I don't want to go that hardcore, but I can see where you are coming from with all the multi classing. I may have to reconsider some of the finer tuning.

What I really want to know is, what is this about some Painbearer quest you mention? What is this all about, and are there other class specific quests throughout the game? If so, this may be a deaper experience than I originally thought!

[Mirk]

Bards get bard spells, not sorcerer spells - the selection is a lot more limited for them. You can look it up in IWD2 section of Gamebanshee.

As to the adding 'sniper' capabilities to the support caster: I would advise against it. the reason you have spells is to... well, use them! When a spellcasting char engages an enemy, your first thoughts are 'what is the best spell here' not 'let's shoot at him, and then when half the enemies are dead and the other half is stunned or webbed, cast some more spells!'.

A compromise for you may be a Rogue3/Fighter4/BardXX - as bards songs can be used at the beginning of the round using the Lingering Song Cheese. Still, you'll be hard-pressed to fill out both the negotiating skills AND rogue skills AND spellcasting skills.

Another suggestion is based on a higly-succesfull build I had: Human Bard1/ClericX (I used Lorekeeper of Oghma). This one was the ultimate support char, starting his Level 1 song, and casting support spells all the way - all this and still the ability to self-buff for those tough fights your tanks are just not well-enough protected.
If you intend to go into HoF with this party, you can safely build a Bard3/Cleric15 in Normal game, and make him into Bard11/Cleric19 by the end.

But seing your admiration of powergaming, let me tip you in on something else.
Because XP in IWD2 is given out in accordance to AVERAGE party level, having a 'mule' low-level char in your party is very efficient. his job in the world is just to exist and not die, while the rest of the party enjoys those quick level-ups. Now, what class can contribute PASSIVELY, without actually engaging an enmy and making themselves a target? You're right, Bards! My Deep Gnome (best-protected race) Bard 3 didn't die even once, and was singing his two songs all the time!

Hope this helps...

[silverdragon72]

.

the most important quests are the paladin and the dreadmaster quests - as they increase stats! even if the DM quest didn't work for me for some unknown reasons - feel free to add the stats with a trainer as this is a bug!

...there are a few other specific quests but they are not really that significant!


From a powergaming point of view a sniper-build isn't a choice in IWD2:

- most enemies have a high resistance against piercing damage!
- you need every PC to keep monsters away from your casters - as you often get attacked from several directions!
=> so you just have no free slot for a sniper!


...for "muling" I would recommend the bard druid build:

with 3 - 5 levels she can give a quite good party support with songs (luck) and some spells (MI & barkskin) and has enough SP to be an excellent speaker!

you can keep her below level 10 until mid of HOF and then jump directly to level 21 druid - 5/6 bard (for the elemental half-dragon - as you said you use weimar)!

...together with some other level-squatting (to keep party level always at x.9 rounded down to x)!

...you can reach level 30 at mid of HOF - even with a party of six!

...just take levels you need to take for your build or levels that really give an advantage!


.

[The Chosen One]

@TybudX: if you are after get lot's of XP have only three member in your party.

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=The Chosen One]@TybudX: if you are after get lot's of XP have only three member in your party.[/QUOTE]


...doesn't work that well in IWD2:

1. all quest EXP is given per head - only combat EXP is shared among the party mebers


2. to calculate the amount of EXP you get from combat the average party level is considered


3. the average party level is calculated only on the number of party mebers: means a party of 3 level 10 PCs has still an average party level of 10!


4. as you will level up faster early in the game (cause the combat EXP is only shared through 3 PCs) you will get stuck in the midgame or endgame, cause your party level is that high, that you get less or even no EXP for combat with a party of less then 6!


5. as long as you don't go for level-squatting or muling also, you won't reach level 30 much earlier with a party of 3 then with a party of 6!!!


6. but for for level-squatting and/or muling a party of 6 is much better!


.

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=TybudX]edit again =P - I will be using the Weimer Ease of Use mod as well as the Undead Targo's mod, but... how the %#*@ do I download them?! I'm at the main page for the mods (there are four thumbnails with links to the mod sections), but I don't see any way to get them from here. What the?! .[/QUOTE]


btw. keep us updated how you succeed in the undead targos mod with what-ever party you build

...as these battles are damned hard without a very good tactic or cheating


.

[ishuman]

Here's a related question. If I go into HOF with 4 of my characters from normal mode (16th level) and replace the other 2 with brand new level one characters, what level could these two new ones get to? My average level would fall from 16 to 11.

I just finished the game in normal mode (!!!) and am thinking about whether and how to do HOF. I may start over with a different group in insane/normal mode instead.

Thanks,
-ishuman

[Mirk]

[QUOTE=silverdragon72].

From a powergaming point of view a sniper-build isn't a choice in IWD2:
[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ! While high-level spells are of course mor powerful and versatile, in some situations a carefully built (and properly used) sniper is the best man for the job.
[QUOTE=silverdragon72].
- most enemies have a high resistance against piercing damage!
[/QUOTE]
then don't use piercing arrows - use those Impact Arrows +1 you get a lot of just when you need them, or even better - use a sling!


[QUOTE=silverdragon72].
- you need every PC to keep monsters away from your casters - as you often get attacked from several directions!
[/QUOTE]
than have a backup tank there - a cleric or druid, or summon some cannon fodder to re-arrange your battleplan. And if needed, a high-Dex char with at least 4 Ftr levels (as a dedicated sniper should be...) is a great candidate to switch to a melee weapon with shield, turn on Expertise, and take some hits while the spellcasters whom he defends make short works of the enmies that ambushed the back roes of your partie's line-up.

These are not heoreies - I've had a highly succesfull Sniper build, a Drow Ftr/Rogue, who specialized in Bows, Crossbows, and Slings - and believe me, 5 hits/round from a sling that does +9 damage, with a +5 bullet, are not something to sneeze at.

Now some other points to consider:

- even if a hit does not go through damage resistance, it stops the advancing monster for a second, thus forcing it to take a longer time to reach your party - just enough for the spellcasters to complete their spells.

- there are plenty of arrows/bolts/bullets that do interresting things on hit, such as disruption/stun/hold/etc. I've very often had my sniper ahlt down a whole array of advancing monsters, stunning one and then swithcing to another

- of special attention are Holdfast arrows, that produce a non-resistable non-savable Entangle for 4 rounds. This equals 20 shots taken at that target by this sniper alone! Now, imagine a tough melee-type baddie such as a Slayer Knight being hold at place while getting hit by +5 arrows fired from a +5 bow for four rounds, then take one step only to be hit again by a Holdfast arrow... You get the picture? Now, imagine EVERYONE in the party has a ranged weapon ready, including the tanks, who join the party with such heavy flying objects as Big Death axe... which is two-handed, thus adding 1.5*Str bonus to the damage...

[silverdragon72]

.

...never said a sniper is a bad build - but I would always take an additional pal / sorc instead from a power-gaming point of view!

...but I even don't know which PC you want to skip for the sniper? (at least in the party I posted - as you will need everyone for his special tasks)

...btw. there are more then enough PCs capable of using ranged weapons with very good hit-rates even without specialisation!



...I just don't see the need for a specialized sniper-build in a power-party:

1. no free slot for this job

2. if you have a slot an additonal sorc / pal is just better

3. the sorc / pal can stand melee even against several enemies thanks to the 8 MI available (and other defensive self-buffs) - without MI the sniper-build won't stand melee for long in HOF

4. most PCs will do a very good sniper-job (if needed) even without any specilisation!

5. there are enough battles where you just can't keep the enemies on distance with a sniper!

6. you always have to rely on the "right" ammunition - and most spell-effects on weapons have such a low DC that you just have a 5% chance!


.

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=ishuman]Here's a related question. If I go into HOF with 4 of my characters from normal mode (16th level) and replace the other 2 with brand new level one characters, what level could these two new ones get to? My average level would fall from 16 to 11.

I just finished the game in normal mode (!!!) and am thinking about whether and how to do HOF. I may start over with a different group in insane/normal mode instead.

Thanks,
-ishuman[/QUOTE]


this is hard to say - strongly depends on how you use "muling & level squatting" in HOF!

...with an average level 11 you will get tons of EXP in HOF right away from the start...

...and when you manage to keep your party level low, both new PCs could definetly reach something between level 20 and 30(!) at the end of HOF! (at least my guess!)


.

[TybudX]

{Hmm...}

silverdragon72, after doing a bit more research, aka digging out my old guide, I have come to the conclusion that your builds are sheer genius.

I was operating under the assumption that you would have to keep your classes closer together, which works fine for lower level builds. It never occured to me use favoured class as a way to break multi-classing!

I guess I just have a few questions for you and Mirk then.

First, what does having reletively few levels of melee oriented skill do to your characters offensive ability? How does the BaB unfold at later levels; does it slow down as much as I fear?

Second, what do either of you suggest for a more rogue/monk oriented build of support/scout character, in place of your (silverdragon72s) "6th pc"? I wouldn't mind having a 'sniper' type charcter in this place, as it does suit my playstyle a bit better than the more magic oriented build offered.

At the same time, I don't want to sacrifice the utility of the spells/skills that the 6th pc had. Is there any way I could shuffle them around a bit between the existing pcs without sacrificing raw power?

[Dedigan]

I know the questions weren't directed at me, but I have an answer.

A few levels of a fighter subclass (fighter, ranger, paladin, barbarian) adds +1 to the BAB per level. So a level 4 fighter has +4 to the BAB. A fifth level gives the character an extra attack, but so does 4 levels of fighter and two levels of anything else. Bonusses are cumulative between classes, as opposed to ed. 2 rules which just used the higher bonusses of the classes.

I have never had a fighter with more than 20 levels, so I can't confirm that a higher level fighter keeps gaining +1 BAB per level, but I suspect it happens. I would still recommend mage or priest levels after 20 for the extra low level spells.

It used to be my play style as well, to use fewer mage characters, but at higher levels, the mages are so overpowering that it is almost silly to go without as many as possible. That said, with 2 arcane casters as opposed to SD's 3, you would still kick a lot of tail.

My personal power party (starting stats may be a little off since it has been a long time since creation):
Deep Gnome Monk(1)/Rogue(1)/Fighter(2)/Dreadmaster of Bane(x)
At level 18: DM 18 At level 20: Monk(1)/rogue(1)/DM(18) The last 2 fighter levels are squatted.
Begin stats: str16 dex20 con14 int3 wis20 cha1
The other 3 are all drow.
#2: Drow priestess (18)/druid(12): divine caster and bark-skinner
#3: Drow rogue (2)/wizard(x): Mostly buffer/debuffer, a little bomber
#4: Drow sorcerer(19)/bard(11): singer/bomber

I thought about adding two new characters for HOF mode, but then changed my mind. These four are killer enough as it is. My strategy depends heavily on disabling opponents with ice lance, chromatic orb, hold person or symbol of hopelessness, so BAB really doesn't matter. Since the arcane casters gained fireball, they have had most of the kills. Now with wail of the banshee, they have almost all of the kills. The priests and summons are just clean up duty. The only disadvantages are 1:that characters 1 and 4 have experience penalties, but it hasn't effectively affected their effectiveness. And 2: buffing the deep gnome takes a long time, so I'm relying more on summons to take damage even though I don't have to.

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=TybudX]{Hmm...}

silverdragon72, after doing a bit more research, aka digging out my old guide, I have come to the conclusion that your builds are sheer genius.

I was operating under the assumption that you would have to keep your classes closer together, which works fine for lower level builds. It never occured to me use favoured class as a way to break multi-classing!

I guess I just have a few questions for you and Mirk then.

First, what does having reletively few levels of melee oriented skill do to your characters offensive ability? How does the BaB unfold at later levels; does it slow down as much as I fear?

Second, what do either of you suggest for a more rogue/monk oriented build of support/scout character, in place of your (silverdragon72s) "6th pc"? I wouldn't mind having a 'sniper' type charcter in this place, as it does suit my playstyle a bit better than the more magic oriented build offered.

At the same time, I don't want to sacrifice the utility of the spells/skills that the 6th pc had. Is there any way I could shuffle them around a bit between the existing pcs without sacrificing raw power?[/QUOTE]


1. the 20 wizard-levels are the kee to max. your melee BAB!

- with tensers transformation & M-sord or BBD you will get a much better BAB then a pure fighter

- same for the cleric based melee build - due to the divine self-buffs this build will have better BABs as a pure fighter, barb or a combi of both

- both melee builds don't have the boni & feats to cast sucessfull offensive spells allowing a save or SR

=> just concentrate on self-buffs and spells with no save allowed or needed!


2. use the 6th PC build and give him a bow - he will do an excellent job - you should also have enough feats to give him some ranged specilisation. The 6th PC build wasn't my favoured choice - but this is the only build giving you fast access to important spells in the early- & mid-game.

the 1st PC will get wiz levels very late and the sorc is to slow to reach important spell-levels early and has a quite limited spell selection early in the game!

...for me the 6th PC was extremly helpful until Kuldahar - an alternate build for the 6th PC is a reverse build of the 1st PC - wiz levels 1st (level 1 is still rogue) and later the fighter an barb level

.