Please note that new user registrations disabled at this time.

The Cheese Guild

This forum is to be used for all discussions pertaining to BioWare's Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn.
User avatar
Xyx
Posts: 3104
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Xyx »

Originally posted by WizWom:
<STRONG>Any character may have only one simulacrum.</STRONG>
That's right, but let's not forget that a Projected Image can also have a Simulacrum, and that a Simulacrum of sufficient level can Project an Image... See the cheese? :D
Originally posted by NeKr0mAnCeR:
<STRONG>i overkilled a mouse near cromwel's house cause it was blocking the stairs -> i gave him the "finger" (of death) he miraculosly saved :( i got mad but 3 magic missiles on sequencer, blew him to tiny pieces.</STRONG>
Not that I condone the mistreatment of animals, but it sure is funny every time I see some lower lifeform squirt a fountain of blood after being caught in some nasty area spell (Horrid Wilting, anyone?). :D
Originally posted by spork:
<STRONG>Can you imagine a PnP game where the characters tried some BG2 cheese strategies against their foes?</STRONG>
The very definition of cheese, IMHO. Well said! :)
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
User avatar
spork
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Post by spork »

This is sort of on topic:

What's the difference between cheese and cheating? I confess that sometimes I can't tell them apart.
Obviously, spawning a killsw01 or starting BG2 with all your gear is cheating. Using the glitches in multiplayer save to multiply your items is also probably cheating.

Killing a dragon with cloudkills because it's too dumb to move a few feet is cheese, but not really cheating. Same with spell sequencers used by projected images and simulacra. Changing your shoes while in combat (dual-weilding!) is cheesy.

Alright, but what about this: I'm fighting Draconis and I decide it's not going well. I run to the edge of the area with my party, get out of his realm, walk a few hours to that desert village whose name I forget, rest there, come back when Draconis' protection spells have worn off, hack him a bit, repeat. Is this just ueber-cheese or just plain cheating? Can anyone think of any other (better) cases right on the border between cheese and cheating? (It's important for the cheese guild, who want to cheese, not cheat.)
User avatar
Doltan
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: Evanston, IL, USA
Contact:

Post by Doltan »

Originally posted by spork:
<STRONG> Can anyone think of any other (better) cases right on the border between cheese and cheating? (It's important for the cheese guild, who want to cheese, not cheat.)</STRONG>
Here's something I wanted your opinion on (is this cheese, cheating, or acceptable strategy?):

Anytime you are going through an area that you are already familiar with from a previous game, you are attempted to spell-up at just the right times, set traps just before you get to a particular baddie, or even memorize spells the rest before based on your upcoming battles. It's almost impossible to avoid this because you do know what's coming up next. As a matter of principle, to avoid what I would say is "prior knowledge cheese", I have my thieves constantly set traps, my mages constantly spell themselves up, etc. I even intentionally waste spells and traps.
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe." -President George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001
User avatar
Fezek
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Post by Fezek »

From the BG2 manual page 68, Line 10
"The real trick is knowing when to fight, talk or run".

So if running away is cheating, then the manual is "encouraging" you to cheat.

If it's cheesy, then the manual is "encouraging " you to use "cheese"(however such a term can be defined).

If it's a standard fighting technique, then the manual is "encouraging" you to use a standard fighting technique.

Churchill to his cabinet," Should we contiue fighting or should we wait for the Americans to arrive?"

IMHO
".I guess soldiers have been killing other soldiers quite a bit; I believe it is called war."
User avatar
THE JAKER
Posts: 1211
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: commuting between Morrowind and Neverwinter
Contact:

Post by THE JAKER »

These questions (from the second page!) are very good ones. When to rest? How to avoid letting your prior knowledge spoil the encounter you're about to have? Who knows? I think in the end...only YOU can decide. ;)

But I think that resting is one of the biggest problems. There are some battles that you can't win, and the sensible thing to do is retreat. A lot of people have said "wouldn't it be different if the monster you ditched out on got to call reinforcements, rest and spell up too?". Well I personally wish they did, but they don't, and that cheese is the fault of the game. Usually I just try to finish the battle, and take the consequences as they come. It's often not as bad as it looks.

As far as spelling up before a fight that I know about from previous plays, it's weird because I did do that the first couple times I replayed, but now I mostly just go in and let'em bring it on. Most of the best buffs cast pretty quickly, and other ones last so long it makes sense to have em "always on" (like stoneskin) As far as traps, I don't personally use em.

And I will end with the words we all love to hear: (drumroll please...)

THIS NEVER WOULD HAPPEN IN PnP!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
May you walk on warrrrm sannd....
User avatar
Mr Sleep
Posts: 11273
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2000 10:00 pm
Location: Dead End Street
Contact:

Post by Mr Sleep »

The cheesiest thing i have ever done:

During my play on TOSTC i was in the dungeon of Durlags tower and because i couldn't be bothered to go through one of the battles i just spawned (with CLUA) about 35 Drizzits who killed everyone..... i am so ashamed :( :(
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
User avatar
Fezek
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Post by Fezek »

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>i am so ashamed :( :( </STRONG>
Are your pants on fire? :D
".I guess soldiers have been killing other soldiers quite a bit; I believe it is called war."
User avatar
Mr Sleep
Posts: 11273
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2000 10:00 pm
Location: Dead End Street
Contact:

Post by Mr Sleep »

Originally posted by Fezek:
<STRONG>Are your pants on fire? :D </STRONG>
You betcha! :D
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
User avatar
spork
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Post by spork »

Alright, I guess even totally stupid fleeing, like my Draconis case, might not be cheating, but it certainly in the height of cheese. Of course, I don't think that fleeing in general is cheesy, just the sort of fleeing I described. Let't try another one:

I pickpocket the Ring of Gaxx from Kangaxx the Lich while he still has a blue circle. When I kill Kangaxx the demilich, I get a second one. Is that cheating?

Re: the other posts: CLUAConsoling in help for your fight isn't cheesy, it's cheating, in my book. Not that cheating is always bad, but it's not what we do in this guild :D

Knowing what monsters are ahead and preparing your spells accordingly is certainly not cheating, and if it's cheesy, then it's far from the worst sort of cheese.
User avatar
Mr Sleep
Posts: 11273
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2000 10:00 pm
Location: Dead End Street
Contact:

Post by Mr Sleep »

Originally posted by spork:
<STRONG>
Re: the other posts: CLUAConsoling in help for your fight isn't cheesy, it's cheating, in my book. Not that cheating is always bad, but it's not what we do in this guild :D
</STRONG>
It is the worst of both, it is cheesy cheating, i think the shame of it will follow me to my death. My epitath will read, Cheated with cheesiness! :D :D
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
User avatar
Fezek
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Post by Fezek »

Originally posted by Doltan:
<STRONG>Here's something I wanted your opinion on (is this cheese, cheating, or acceptable strategy?):

Anytime you are going through an area that you are already familiar with from a previous game, you are attempted to spell-up at just the right times, set traps just before you get to a particular baddie, or even memorize spells the rest before based on your upcoming battles. It's almost impossible to avoid this because you do know what's coming up next. As a matter of principle, to avoid what I would say is "prior knowledge cheese", I have my thieves constantly set traps, my mages constantly spell themselves up, etc. I even intentionally waste spells and traps.</STRONG>
Tough question. But when you first went round I am guessing you didn't exactly go to bar ,drink yourself silly on Evermead, strip down to your grundies, and play football with a can whilst you were noisily clattering in a dark spooky dungeon. You more likely, went to bed early, memorized some fairly effective spells, bought some new Fire arrows, polished your armor, checked everybodies health, sent a theif to scout ahead, checking for traps etc. yeah, when you play now , you tend to set traps in exactly the right places, prepare the exact spell for the fight etc. But so what? How many people don't memorize pierce magic, spell sequencers, Iron skins anyway. I'm sure nobody when they first started playing the game memorized 6 "Know Alignment" spells or some other suspect spells.

I think most people's objective in second or third games is to make it more challenging by going solo, or using a Bard, never reloading etc. The "prior knowledge cheese" arguement is suspect at best.
".I guess soldiers have been killing other soldiers quite a bit; I believe it is called war."
User avatar
Fezek
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Post by Fezek »

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>It is the worst of both, it is cheesy cheating, i think the shame of it will follow me to my death. My epitath will read, Cheated with cheesiness! :D :D </STRONG>
More likely "Cheated with cheesypeaz" :D
".I guess soldiers have been killing other soldiers quite a bit; I believe it is called war."
User avatar
Mr Sleep
Posts: 11273
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2000 10:00 pm
Location: Dead End Street
Contact:

Post by Mr Sleep »

Originally posted by Fezek:
<STRONG>More likely "Cheated with cheesypeaz" :D </STRONG>
LOL! :D
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
User avatar
Xyx
Posts: 3104
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Xyx »

Originally posted by spork:
<STRONG>What's the difference between cheese and cheating?</STRONG>
Excellent point. We need food for thought. How about...
  • Blade Barrier/Sanctuary
  • Pickpocketing Kangaxx
  • Killing Irenicus or Beholders simply by bouncing all their damage back with the Cloak of Mirroring
  • Installing a Grand Mastery 'patch'
  • Dualling Kensai
  • Having dual or multi Thieves Use Any Item that goes against the ethos of their other class
  • Spawning multiple clones out of a Chain Contingency
  • Applying both Protection from Normal Weapons and Protection from Magical Weapons through use of Chain Contingency
  • Having clones use scrolls
  • Having clones produce more clones
  • Having clones violate the '5 summons limit'
  • Stacking Blur (confirmed to be a bug)
  • Using a work-around to keep Yoshi
  • Fake Talk
  • Preparing for combat right next to neutral creatures (buffing, summoning, trapping)
  • Having a creature chase one character all over the place while the rest shoots at it
  • 'Locking' creatures behind doors
  • Running away from enemies and resting when barely out of their sight
  • Pickpocketing the Tear from the Genie in Hell
  • Clicking on an NPC multiple times to gain the same Quest XP award over and over
  • Killing 'immortal' creatures such as Arkanis Gath
  • Using ShadowKeeper to alter your stats without giving yourself more advantages than you could have gotten in a 'legal' way
  • Using any of the inbuilt 'debug' options
  • Using Vampiric Touch while you know you will ccasionally gain 100+ HP
  • Switching areas in the midst of battle
  • Alternating attacking and spellcasting to get more actions out of one round
  • Equipping/unequipping bonus HP items to heal
  • Using Difficulty settings lower than Core Rules
  • Waiting until enemy protections wear off
  • Killing enemies with Farsight and summons
  • Having a (high Wis) character other than the caster talk to the Limited Wish Dao to get more options
  • Swapping inventory in combat
  • Killing your own Pit Fiends for XP while Protected from Evil
  • Setting an unlimited amount of traps (or Skull Traps, Glyphs of Warding et al) by resting in between
  • Moving around in Defensive Spin using the Ring of Free Action
  • Getting both the Planar Sphere and the D'Arnise Keep as strongholds
  • Grossly violating your Alignment on multiple occasions
  • Taking weeks and weeks to get to Spellhold
    Stealing from fences and selling their own stuff back endlessly
Phew! Am I the King of Cheese yet? :D
Originally posted by spork:
<STRONG>starting BG2 with all your gear is cheating.</STRONG>
Well, Minsc does get to bring Boo. :P
Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>i just spawned (with CLUA) about 35 Drizzits who killed everyone.....</STRONG>
Now that's a cheat, IMHO. ;)
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
User avatar
THE JAKER
Posts: 1211
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: commuting between Morrowind and Neverwinter
Contact:

Post by THE JAKER »

Xyx, if you REALLY are after the title "King of Cheese", you've got it as far as I'm concerned! What does everyone think? I don't want to be disrespectful to the illustrious Founder of the Guild, Garrett, after all...

That is a very comprehensive list. Perhaps you should have numbered the cheese tactics, so that we could say "I did a #19" (using clones to avoid 5 creature limit) or something.

I really agree about #29, taking weeks to get to Spellhold. I always feel weird going off to Umar and Trademeet knowing that Imoen is in prison, getting experimented on! It's very easy to earn Au15,000 right in Athlkatla, after all...

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: THE JAKER ]
May you walk on warrrrm sannd....
User avatar
KillerKid
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Dallas, Texas aka shitville
Contact:

Post by KillerKid »

somethings are technaly cheesy but more of tac**** like in the incident of summoning 25 drizzts is cheating but i believe if you summoned 1 drizzt it would be ligit i mean in real life you woul be able to summon him for your help you did beomce friends
Life sucks deal with it
[url="http://URL=http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=004154"]CLUAConsole Codes aka CCC hehe thanks Weasel[/url]
User avatar
General
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
Contact:

Post by General »

Does anyone wish to venture into SoA with me, use CLUA to get exp cap, and pick on some poor defenceless animals???? *grins* "That's right moose, I want my 6 XP"
"Come on, let's go whack something eeeeeeeeevil!"

"Faster than Chiktikka FastPaws!"

Shadow Mages - Sorcery and Shadow together as one, the arcane and the dark united. Through our knowledge and skill none can stand against us. We are as one, infallible and invincible.
User avatar
spork
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Post by spork »

Xyx, I'm very impressed with that list. Maybe we should wait a bit for others to expand it and then begin a new cheese-guild-sponsored thread called "cheese or not a cheese" where we number the items and ask people to vote. I think many forum members would have fun with that, and in the process learn something about the ways of the cheese.

Reading the list again, it's hard to think of things to add. I always get a guilty conscience when I

[*]Defeat a powerful enemy by getting them off screen and casting cloudkills near them (from a projected image?:rolleyes :)
[*]Attack with my Staff of the Magi and re-equip it the instant I become visible.

You did mention swapping equipment during combat, but it might make a difference whether a character is equipping something from her own inventory and from someone else's.

A scene from the spork adventure logs:

"Hey, Minsc, this wizard just cast a lightning bolt at me! I know you have your hands full with those pit fiends, but would you be a dear and unlace those boots of grounding and throw them my way? That lighning bolt is moving pretty fast and I don't like taking damage! Oh, and while you're at it, can you rummage through the Bag of Holding to see if we still have any of those antidote potions? ANTIDOTE!! They're green, you moron! Yeah, green, you know, sort of rectangular bottles... If you find any just throw them to me."
User avatar
NeKr0mAnCeR
Posts: 719
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: in A.D. 2101
Contact:

Post by NeKr0mAnCeR »

this is not cheese but its realy funny:
cast gate in the middle of a town :D
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US

You there! Yes, you! Buck Satan needs you! Join the [url="http://www.svelmoe.dk/botb"]Blades of The Banshee[/url] today!
User avatar
KillerKid
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: Dallas, Texas aka shitville
Contact:

Post by KillerKid »

LMFAO i never thought of that (thinks to myself) hmm i wonder what would happen if i summoned 11 gates at once in the middle of a town (6 mages each making a sim) hmmmmmmmmmm just think of the destruction drool if only you could dmg buildings lmao think of summoning a pit fiend or balor in the middle of that town meeting when you first go to umar hills
Life sucks deal with it
[url="http://URL=http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=004154"]CLUAConsole Codes aka CCC hehe thanks Weasel[/url]
Post Reply