The Cheese Guild

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 2:43 am

3rd page, y'all!!!
(responding to critics from the 2nd page...)

OK, how can I not respond...I've been called
out...

Polaris, we both know that you kill me every time (in debating...), so point taken. You know your stuff. I will say that:

1: druids get darts and spears, and the darts of wounding/stunning and the Impaler rock!

3: I HAVE used the druidic shapechange abilities in TOB, the earth elemental and fire elemantal tranformations are actually pretty cool. They're not necessarily better than regular form, but they look awesome on screen (come on, that's the most important thing, right?!) and they do good damage...Jaheira w/ greater whirlwind in earth elemental form is pretty cool! And what about elemental prince summoning? Beats the **** out of Devas (IMHO)

Xhyx: you know you're the KING (of cheese and scripts) and I'm waiting for that Magic User improved AI, but c'mon!!!! that first page of Kobold stategies is GOLDEN!!! NekROmanCEr cracks me up BIG time!!!

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: THE JAKER ]

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 3:39 am

I will admit that the elemental shapechanges for druids look pretty neat and they are much better than any other shapeshift (even the Greater Werewolf). Unfortunately (and I have found this out the hard way

) Jaheira is FAR more vunerable in that form (and actually does *less* damage) then in her natural form (with her buffed out gear). I will also readily agree (and I did conceed this some time back) the Druidic elemental summoning is better than it's clerical version, but as I see it, that is the ONLY think the Druid has going for it over the Ranger/Cleric. Considering all the advantages the Ranger/Cleric has, I still think this is cheese. As Xyx said, these are DRUID spells. Neither the Ranger nor the Cleric alone is supposed to get them. Therefor neither should the Dual....but he does.

As for the spears and darts, you are correct about Ixil's pike, but I still think the Clerical Weapon selection is better (Dual weilding Crom Faeyr and FoA is simply *wrong*).

-Polaris

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 4:17 am

i SAID you always win at debating! (and for the record I do NOT play the Ranger/dual Cleric combo)

I agree about dual wielding Crom and FOA...what kind of crazy fighting style would incorporate a warhammer and a 5 headed flail?!?

It's certainly hard to picture...

I always thought that dual wielding was for rapier and dagger (3 musketeers style), or katana/wazikashi. I know that the 3E rules specify that the offhand weapon has to be "Light", so I guess some of this dual wield bastard swords insanity will be corrected in NWN, for better or worse...

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 7:39 am

Originally posted by THE JAKER:
I agree about dual wielding Crom and FOA...what kind of crazy fighting style would incorporate a warhammer and a 5 headed flail?!? It's certainly hard to picture...

Oh well, I suppose that if you have Strength 25, you could effortlessly twirl either between your fingers.

Let alone swing them from side to side in the general direction of something nasty.

Alzar · Post by **Alzar** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 9:22 am

Garrett check your mail.

spork · Post by **spork** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 3:52 pm

Nice work cheesemasters. I'm having trouble expanding our great inventory of cheese. I didn't even know about the Ranger/Cleric thing--that's a great piece of cheese (no PnP game would let that slip by), but it won't throw the game off balance too much, so it counts as good cheese. Frankly, neither the cleric nor the ranger are classes fit for the power gamer, so I say let them have their cheese. They've got nothing on a Kensai/Mage!

I have been wondering whether another sort of role-playing inconsistency rises to the level of cheese. Here's an example: I initially took Korgan into my party, he got a couple of new scars but we recovered the Book of Kaza, looted some dungeons, found tons of treasure, etc. But then when I kicked him out of the party, he didn't ask for his share of the loot. He didn't even ask to keep the axe I originally him with. It's like he traveled with our party out of the goodness of his heart, but wait a minute... see my problem? No DM would ever play Korgan like that. I know this isn't so much a cheesy combat strategy, but it bothers me anyway because I feel like I shouldn't be able to get away with it. (Anyway, the best solution is just to keep Korgan. He rules!)

Also, another question: now that we are much further in understanding cheese, it's time to ask: has someone ever played or tried playing a cheese-free game? Which sort of cheese is harderst to avoid? I know for me it's always too tempting to exploit the weak AI of my enemies, making them chase me around senselessly while taking missile damage. Also I tend to rearrange equipment during battle, which is pretty cheesy. Would it be fun to play a cheese-free game? What's a cheese-free fighting style (for someone who thinks that taking more than 10 days before going to rescue Imoen is cheesy)?

Also, is it cheesy that you can carry hundreds of thousands of gold coins? Maybe you have some sort of a magical change purse.

polaris · Post by **polaris** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 3:54 pm

Xyx,

I have to disagree with you. Having handled melee weapons, strength is not the only issue (albeit it is the most important one). Even with your 25 STR, you still have the same mass and the same balance. The reason dual wielding FoA and Crom Faeyr is just wrong has to do with the fact you would be perpetually off balance (and strength does NOT help this).

-Polaris

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 4:42 pm

The thing about money: i remember something in D&D about gold weighing like 1LB for every 10 coins! (Maybe I'm wrong...) But so that 30,000 gold would take a wagon with two clydesdales to carry it!

I think the PC might use the Visa (TM) Check Card or something...which makes we wonder if maybe I could get a credit card at the beginning of the game, load up on equipment immediately, and then make enough money back to easily pay the bill when it comes the next month!

I've been moving towards a more cheeseless game, but you know, some stuff still creeps in. In the current game I'm working on, I did jettison the wand of cloudkill, and I'm holding myself to stealing stuff, but only using ONE potion of thievery (not five!) so that I had to use some thieving points in pickpocket, and then not ever stealing stuff, selling it and stealing it again... and you know, I still have pretty good cash

Also, I'm thinking of NOT upgrading the mace of disruption, or maybe not even using it, because I've found that with it one fighter can clear Bodhi's whole lair unless they get held by the ghasts, except for that one b**** mage that is standing in front of the spike trap room. I'll try to use Neg Plane Protection and Restoration instead.

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: THE JAKER ]

spork · Post by **spork** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 5:41 pm

It's funny about the Mace of Disruption, because I don't have any problems with using it. I agree that in certain contexts it makes you incredibly powerful, but really, it's just a question of two fights, and there is no sign you are abusing its power. I know if I were your DM, you got an upgraded Mace of Disruption fair and square, and wanted to clean out a lair of vampires with it, I'd let you. (It would be nice if the vampires noticed it and tried searching for other party members to attack, but hey, what can you do?)

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 9:41 pm

Don't get me wrong...I really don't think that there's anything at all wrong with the improved mace of disruption or Carsomyr, but I just have played through the game a lot with them, you know, and so I'm enjoying a game WITHOUT them, and it's making some of the battles more fun and challenging...

I certainly am not trying to say that using these items, or crom, or celestial fury, is cheesy or anything. It's just interesting to try the game w/o them.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Mon Aug 06, 2001 3:03 am

Originally posted by spork:
I agree that in certain contexts it makes you incredibly powerful

Indeed, and I agree that does not make it cheese. After all, if those goodies weren't there to be used and thus make life easier on poor, helpless adventuring parties, then what the hell are they doing there? Let's call this Quasi-Cheese. It's not real Cheese, it just looks like it.

Let's make a list:

Improved Mace of Disruption (for slaying Vampires with impunity, as noted above)
Shield of Balduran (for bouncing Beholders to death with their own rays)
Cloak of Mirroring (for bouncing Mages and Beholders to death with their own spells or rays)
Daystar (for Sunraying Liches)
Staff of the Magi (for just about any battle)
Azuredge (for killing Adamantite Golems that get stuck in doorways)

Any more uber-Quasi-Cheese items?

Garrett · Post by **Garrett** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 4:32 pm

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 5:36 pm

Yeah Garrett! I saw your post on the "uncheesy" thread - way to go! Those Posers! THE CHEESE GUILD is the place to discuss cheesy tactics, and may it ever be. <bows head reverently>

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 11:04 am

Oops... Did I bump?

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 11:29 am

I've got a question for the Members of the
Guild: I've been reading some threads on "soloing" which talk about different tactics, and they always involve summoning critters or pit fiends or casting simulacrums.

Now, is "soloing" really the right word for a battle where you summon two skeleton warriors, gate in a pit fiend, have a MK sword fighting for you, cast simulacrum, have your sim gate in a fiend,etc, etc, etc?

I mean it's fun, but it sounds more like an ARMY than a solo....

jju_57 · Post by **jju_57** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 12:04 pm

I'm pretty new to the boards. Why was this topic bumped? Are there some rules I can read. Thanks.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 1:51 pm

Originally posted by jju_57:
I'm pretty new to the boards. Why was this topic bumped? Are there some rules I can read. Thanks.

At the top of every page is a Forum Rules link.

Plus I have got a link to it in my sig.

Bumping a topic is so you don't have to ask the same question again.

If a topic get's buried under the spam (it gets pushed down the board and makes it to the second page)...and you still need an answer.

Bump it back up. (Just try not to go bump crazy)

Garrett · Post by **Garrett** » Wed Aug 08, 2001 4:33 pm

Thanks JAKER. They just ticked me off!

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 2:53 am

Originally posted by jju_57:
I'm pretty new to the boards. Why was this topic bumped? Are there some rules I can read. Thanks.

You need to master the art of bumping inconspicuously, veiling it with something that resembles a question or advice.

Like this...

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Thu Aug 09, 2001 9:14 am

Yeah, that's a good point, Xyx.