Angels with Horns?

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:07 pm

Excuse the thread title please, I just liked it for some reason

I was contemplating the antiquated notion that many people still hold regarding children. For a long time they have been viewed as innocents, or alternatively, as the embodiment of a new hope.

Personally, I tend to disagree with the above. In my own experience and that of most other people I know, children are generally little bastards... Often, at school, violence is the only way to stop them from taunting and teasing, they usually won't listen to negotiation.

Cynic that I frequently am, I'm inclined to concur with the vision William Golding presents in his novel Lord of the Flies in which he suggests that left without the facade of 'civilised guidance' children will just naturally revert to the small 'savages' they really are.

Thoughts, flames or comments?

giles337 · Post by **giles337** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:23 pm

hmmm. Amen?

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:27 pm

Well, I think that most of us are/were bastards in some way

But some are as you state DW, innocent etc.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:30 pm

Children tend to be sadistic and cruel for some reason. I could be at times, although I had so much of that directed at me at home, I wasn't the "normal child" in regards to that. You generally had to hurt me in order to get a reaction like that out of me because I knew all to well how it felt.

I think the problem is, children are feeling and experiencing new emotions and sensations. If they don't know what it's like to be hurt yet, they don't realize it's bad to do so to others. If you've never had a rock thrown at you and have it hit you before, launching one at your neighbor has no negative correlation to you whatsover. It's simply fun and amusing to do so as a new game. If the neighbor ends up crying and bleeding, you kind of feel bad, because you know what it's like to cry, but, having never been hit with a rock before you can't really relate and will keep doing so until someone sits you down and makes you stop.

You can tell your child all you want not to do things, but given they don't understand why NOT to do them, they'll try them to find out whats going on. For me, I could be rationalized with from a very young age, so long as you explained and proved your point. No one does so with a 5 year old though, they think you're a moron and say "Just don't", so I did to ease my curiousity.

Once a child learns for himself that certain behaviors are harmful, damaging and unhealthy, most stop. They're just evil little demons until then when they find a new behavior that's "fun and exciting".

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:39 pm

[QUOTE=dragon wench]

Cynic that I frequently am, I'm inclined to concur with the vision William Golding presents in his novel Lord of the Flies in which he suggests that left without the facade of 'civilised guidance' children will just naturally revert to the small 'savages' they really are.
[/QUOTE]

This is true, but the small 'savages' like their elders

.

I am inclined to disagree with you though

. I think children are generally innocent, because they haven't (yet) been corrupted by greed, discrimination etc. But ofcourse, at some point an innocent, cherubic child will become "enlightened" and thats when savagery sets in

Usually, if a child is very sadistic this is the influence of parents, social pressures etc... I like to follow the old view that each child is a clean slate, innocent and pure.

Tower_Master · Post by **Tower_Master** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:53 pm

Interesting topic, DW!

Well, I'm about as uneducated in child psychology as a person can get, but I'd tend to agree with the general gist of Magrus' post. Children are learning interaction methods, how to behave, what other's facial expressions mean, and cognitizing that "if I punch sally in the face, it will cause her pain". My mother was a preschool teacher for a little while with two-year-olds, and, while the kids were adorable, sometimes it was amazing the things that they would do; concepts we take for granted like "compromise" and "community property" simply didn't exist for them yet (although I fear some adults may never figure this out either

). Ultimately, I'd say that children are *in my limited and anecdotal experience* innocent and cute, but that same innocence can result in sheer cruelty that serves no constructive purpose.

Pre-teens, on the other hand...that's an entirely different story.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:56 pm

Grab them by there scruffy little necks and hold them above the crocodile pits. Steve Irwin had the right idea.... let that little bastard know that at any moment.... SLAM animal food.

Denethorn · Post by **Denethorn** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:36 pm

[QUOTE=RandomThug]Grab them by there scruffy little necks and hold them above the crocodile pits. Steve Irwin had the right idea.... let that little bastard know that at any moment.... SLAM animal food.[/QUOTE]

How eloquent

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:17 am

[QUOTE=dragon wench]Cynic that I frequently am, I'm inclined to concur with the vision William Golding presents in his novel Lord of the Flies in which he suggests that left without the facade of 'civilised guidance' children will just naturally revert to the small 'savages' they really are.[/QUOTE]

Well, these kids are pretty old. After all, they have experienced leadership before, which is why the struggle occurs.

But I believe the child is just a younger version of the dominant role(s) in their life. A child loves to impersonate, and, willingly or unwillingly, will often copy the most dominant role in their life. If that person continually swears, then the chlid will grow up to think nothing of swearing. On the other hand, if I child is brought up with strict values, such as not swearing, they will be quite offended by other people's language.

I believe a child is neither an angel or demon. A child is simply a mirror, but that mirror can reflect anything...

stickylungs · Post by **stickylungs** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:01 pm

I tend to agree. Without guidance children will rapidly turn into savages and animals. But with guidance it seems children slowly grow into much worse. Because the person who is overlooking these children all have their own systematic ways and savage habits. A kind of passive agressive savage. I for one can not stand children. They leave a bad aftertaste when aten ith vinegar. Just kidding

giles337 · Post by **giles337** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:18 pm

[QUOTE=Fiberfar]Well, I think that most of us are/were bastards in some way

[/QUOTE]

Oh i still am..... don't you worry

Doesn't mean i can't play innocent w/ the best of them

frogus23 · Post by **frogus23** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:14 am

I am inclined to think that it is invalid to generalise the characters of children.

I do not know many children, but from what I have noticed they have as many different characters as their adult counterparts.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:45 am

Cynic that I frequently am, I'm inclined to concur with the vision William Golding presents in his novel Lord of the Flies in which he suggests that left without the facade of 'civilised guidance' children will just naturally revert to the small 'savages' they really are.

There is plenty of evidence that demonstrate humans in general are "savages" in the sense that has been discussed in other threads, ie humans is the only species on earth that kill and torture each other and other species without really needing it for survivial (food or self-defense). On the contrary, it is common that humans even take pleasure in others suffering, and get positivie feelings about themselves (power, control, ego-boost, sexual arousal etc) when others suffer.

Children have lower impulse control and fewer coping strategies than healthy adults, so obviously they theoretically should need more "guidance" than adults, but looking at what kind of "guidance" is present in much of current society, I would say many adults need it as much as the children - it's just not available to anyone.

Aztaroth · Post by **Aztaroth** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:35 pm

Well my brother is 5 years old, so I've experienced first-hand how... evil children can be. I agree that children can't understand pain until they feel it, but with my brother it's like it's the other way around. It seems that the more I try to "make him understand" that hitting others isn't a good thing, the more he seems to do it.

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:37 pm

[QUOTE=Aztaroth]Well my brother is 5 years old, so I've experienced first-hand how... evil children can be. I agree that children can't understand pain until they feel it, but with my brother it's like it's the other way around. It seems that the more I try to "make him understand" that hitting others isn't a good thing, the more he seems to do it.[/QUOTE]
But doing that can make them think violence is acceptable in society. I believe that a child should learn, but not through practices that actually disagree with want you want the child to believe.

I agree with C Elegans. There are heaps of irresponsible parents (perhaps that's why they are parents). These parents actually need to learn properly, or it is just and endless cycle.

giles337 · Post by **giles337** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:55 am

It seems chillingly apt, that in the British press at the moment, the main story is that of a 5 year old who thankfully managed to survive an attempted hanging my a group of 11-12 year olds. Sickening, in my opinion.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:33 pm

@Giles: I know, I read about the case...unfortunately I think that in the world we live in, we should not be surprised that children and youths, as well as adults, get a kick out of what media constantly say we should get a kick of: violence as a mean to power over others.