Why Paladin's RULE

[Xyx]

Originally posted by sigurd:
<STRONG>Just got to add that all of your reasons for the Kensai to dual to a mage really sucked, Xyx. The whole point being a kensai is to master close combat fighting only, which makes your last 3 arguments go away instantly, and what makes a mage better at fighting a demon than the kensai? one on one a kensai would kill the demon fast.

Now im sure you can make up many new events, and please do so if it makes you feel less a powergamer.
If you think its good for roleplaying, so fine, but then i wouldnt believe you if you said you werent a powergamer, only a roleplayer.
I never said it be wrong playing one, just that it is more powergaming than roleplaying.</STRONG>

Well, thank you very much! I thought they were rather nice, actually. I suppose you couldn't share some of your apparently infinite wisdom and show me how it should be done? Let me in on the big secret why Kensain shouldn't augment their fighting abilities with magic.

Who made you the Kensai expert? Where did you learn all this stuff about what Kensai are and can or cannot do? It certainly isn't in the manual. Kensai can dual to Mage, they can use weapons other than swords, and they can use thrown weapons (the manual only mentions missile weapons being off-limit).

I readily admit to being a powergamer and see no shame in it. I feel that it can be combined with the oh-so vaunted "roleplaying" (even though I don't see the point outside of PnP). In fact, I see it as very realistic that people would maximize their chances for survival in whatever reasonable way is open to them.

Why is powergaming looked down upon by so many anyway? I have seen powergaming PnP characters grab all the glory from the "roleplayers" (or just those that didn't know how to design a powerful character), but BG is a game you play by yourself. Afraid you'll lose out on bragging rights if you don't have a PC with Strength 22? Who cares!?

[R.Carter]

Speaking of "models" for weapons, break out your copy of Encyclopedia Magica Vol 4 and see some of the originals. Pg 1353 features a Holy Avenger named "Crysomer." There are some similarities, apart from the name, and some differences, but there's no denying the influence. While you're at it, check out the original "Celestial Fury" on pg. 1349, and what "Adjatha" REALLY used to drink on pg. 1336.
Shows how difficult it is to translate the traditional game into the electronic medium.
R.Carter

[Doltan]

As for people's disdain for powergamers, I also don't understand the problem. I think we each do what we need to in order to make the game most fun. For me, that means having one party where I kick *ss with my well-equiped characters (and yes, TOB is too easy), and other groups or solo chars where I do things the more difficult way (absolutely no power gaming in those cases). Personally, I've always enjoyed role playing more, but that is only what brings me the most enjoyment. Some people like to royally smash the monsters, never reload, and just watch the story unfold. The neat thing about BG is that you are allowed a full range of experiences (try running through with a solo illusionist/thief, completing only the main story line and never really getting very powerful ... the battles are great!).

By the way, neat post R. Carter.

[Zartuul]

Ok people are saying that Fighters are better then Paladins because of why? Better AC? Better Thaco? Better weapons?

Paladins can wear all the armor that a fighter can wear so their AC is the same only a Paladin's AC can be BETTER because of protection from evil and armor of faith.

Better Thaco? No, Thaco caps at lvl 20 both fighters and Paladins have the same base thaco. The only differnce is the fighters +2/+3 vs the paladins +1/+2 for weapon specialization.

Somebody said Holy Avengers could suck in NWN. So? Paladins can use all the weapons a fighter can except evil only weapons. How is that a handicap to paladins?

[sigurd]

About powergaming. I use one of the strongest possible combos as well, the berzerker/cleric, me too has 22 str without girdles and so on.

The difference is that, in my oppinion, a berzerker/cleric is great for roleplaying, suits Talos perfectly to be berzerker at first.

I cannot see a good way of roleplaying a kensai/mage however, as the whole idea of that combo is absurd. But it is my oppinion. Ask me and a kensai shouldnt be a kit at all, but an own class, like monks. Dualling to thief will make some more sense though.
And that combo probably is stronger than any other class combo there is, maybe wizard sleyer thief beats it.

[Saruman]

A beserker/cleric would suit Tempus better but then again in PnP (2nd edition, as 've never played 3rd) a specialty priest of Tempus gets beserk abilities to at least some extent anyway.

Of course you can't play Priests of tempus in the game.

Now there's an idea for expanding the character classes avail. more different types of speciality priest.

[ReignsOfPower]

Those 4 few Cleric levels that a Paladin gets are enough. You can tank you Paladin VERY well. Here is how. (MUCH better than a Fighter, Monk etc.)

Level 1 Spell- Armour Of Faith. Cast 4 of these and your completely immune to physical damage.

-Sanctuary - The perfect 'go-up-to-the-archers-and-chop-em' spell (also good for checking out where enemies are at and pumping yourself up).

Draw Upon Holy Might - raise Str, Dex and Con to 25(when high enough level).

Summon Deva - VERY useful when tanking.

Resist Fire/Cold.

Now against the larger enemies (which you would use all of these against) you would barely take a hit points damage.

CHEEZY!!!!

Oh, and with the Carsomyr and Belt of Internal Barrier and cloak of mirroring, spells would have trouble getting to you as well!!

[Orland]

Alright folks, I'll throw down the proverbial gauntlet.

First, the Encyclopedia Magica is 2nd Edition, same as Baldur's Gate 2. Of course they're going to show simularities, I never denied that. I brought up the 3rd Edition rules for a Holy Avenger to show people that the weapon has changed. Why? Because a two handed sword Holy Avenger is too powerful and draws the Paladin more into the realm of a fighter.

Read the descript for the two hand weapon proficiency in BG2. It's states that a two handed sword is the hallmark of a muscle bound warrior. To me, making the Holy Sword for BG2 two hand was a slap in the face. Two hand weapons belong to fighters because, simply put, a fighter is pure offense. It's their role in the group to deal damage quick and in massive quantities, otherwise they wouldn't be fighters.

Now as for this stuff about a fighter being better or a paladin being better.

NEITHER ARE!

How many times does this dead horse have to be beaten? They are only as good as the player who plays them. The AC, THAC0, and saving throws bonus' don't mean squat if you don't have the smarts to play the character effectively.

You know what kills me? People do have one reason to think Paladins suck. It's because when you are playing BG2, you are not getting the roleplaying aspect of the class. Which as most who play the PnP version will tell you, is where paladins are balanced.

Because they have to follow a Code.

It's not like BG2, where you can slaughter people and loose popularity until you fall. In the PnP, you can't steal, lie, cheat, or behave dishonorably. Why? Because you have a Dungeon Master riding your butt to make sure you don't. Depending on the whim of the DM, you look at someone the wrong way and you could fall. Basically, they can't do half the stuff people use them for in BG2 because of the code.

Sleeping with Slave: You Fall

Recieving the Ransom for the Bridge Kidnapping: You Fall

Not paying respect to your god: You Fall

Even thinking about the human flesh armor: You Fall

So, yeah a unhindered Paladin is better than a Fighter. But that's a flaw of the BG series, one that will not be repeated in Neverwinter Nights.

Because being a champion of good can be a royal pain in the arse.

Orland

[ReignsOfPower]

OUCH!!!


I was playing around with some Multi-Classed Character and decided to create a Clerc/Ranger for a change.


I used CLUA console to increase his exp and used Shadow keeper to give him some of the best stuff.

DAMN! He had -16 AC All the Cleric spells AND all DRUID!! I was unaware that Rangers had Druid spells!! I tought they were Cleric too!!!! DAMN! he was a Level 25cleric lv 20 Ranger had -14 Thacho 3 attacks.
He had all the Druid special abilities available to him and with greater Whirldingd DAMN! Stuff the blardy Paladin! This Clericrange tanks blardy SUPER!

I STRONGLY recommend that you guys fool around with a Cleric/Ranger (multiclass) and pump him up to see how good they really are!!
I was rapped!

[Andrew Shih]

Reigns of Power,

I totally agree with you. Cleric/Ranger Multi-Classes (and I would add their relatives, dwaven fighter/cleric multi-class and half-elven fighter/druid multi-classes) are GREAT in TOB, much better than paladins. Because of the THACO cap and because you start to get advanced ability points based upon your cumulative XP, with a cleric/ranger you're getting not half a cleric and half a ranger but two for the price of one!

(I'm at the final save with my solo dwarven fighter/cleric).

--Riverwind

[koz-ivan]

Read the descript for the two hand weapon proficiency in BG2. It's states that a two handed sword is the hallmark of a muscle bound warrior. To me, making the Holy Sword for BG2 two hand was a slap in the face. Two hand weapons belong to fighters because, simply put, a fighter is pure offense. It's their role in the group to deal damage quick and in massive quantities, otherwise they wouldn't be fighters.

ok, so if carsomyr was a long sword that would have made it less powerful?

[Zartuul]

DOH of course a dual class is going to be more powerful then a single class character. Don't be comparing apples to oranges here. That's like saying that a Kensai/Mage is more powerful then a straight Kensai or a straight Mage. The discussion here is the comparison between Paladins and fighter types.

[R.Carter]

Orland, I think you may have missed a point or two. My reference to the Encyclopedia Magica was purely an FYI thing, just intended for a bit of perspective, or perhaps nostalgia. It is extremely difficult to translate certain aspects of the traditional game into the electronic, as those EM entries show.
The BG series, Icewind Dale, and Torment, as fine as they are, are different from the P&P version on a fundamental level. The spontaneous contributions to the story by the players, and the interaction between player and referee just do not exist as of yet in any game that I am aware of in the electronic medium. It is pointless to compare the CRPG with the traditional on any level other than the cursory. It the 'ol apples and oranges thing. Yes there are similarities. But the differences will forever separate the two. To refer to a book from what is essentially another game as if it has any real bearing on things seems like a case of misspent energies.
In addition, isn't a Paladin a holy warrior? That is in both the traditional sense of the word as well as the context of the game(s).
R.Carter

[Orland]

Oh no, R. Carter I understand totally and agree that weapons are hard translations.

But sometimes, those translations make a joke of the weapon.

Yes, changing Carsomyr to a Longsword would make it less powerful...until someone dual wields it.

It'd be like the Purifier/Foebane combo, only you get another +30 magic resistance, another +5 damage to Chaotic Evil, not to mention the dispel strike, and ability to cast dispel.

OUCH.

There's a scary thought. Actually, Carsomyr is a good weapon, and works well with Keldorn as is. Making it +6 to me was a little over the top.

But, that's my opinion, I like to state it, but I'm not much for holding others to it. Most people like Carsomyr, and I don't knock them for it. I am after all a person who plays a Protagonist Paladin who doesn't use Carsomyr.

As for Powergaming, I think BG2 was made for powergamers, because in a P-n-P game, you'd never find half the stuff you find here.

Also, most the powergamers I have met like to think of themselves as god, and in this game, you do have the option of becoming one.

Personally, I'm not a powergamer, I like to enjoy the challenge and slowly enjoy the game.

Orland

[leeho730]

IMO, paladins became powerful in BG2 just because bioware changed the rule regarding weapon mastery. Any warrior with original grand mastery would kick paladin's ass in one on one. Nowadays paladins are considered far-better warrior class then fighters.

Specialized: +1 damage/TACH0, 1/2 extra attack
Grand Mastery: +3 TACH0, +5 damage, 1 extra attack. WOW