ToB ending ethics *spoilers*

Savarius · Post by **Savarius** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 8:44 am

So, depending on choices you've made throughout ToB, there are three possible endings for your main character: you can ascend to godhood as a good or evil deity, or be stripped of the divine essence of Bhaal and live out the rest of your days as a mortal. I know this conclusion is sort of foregone, and it really the only one suitable for the story, but the ethics of the decision (displaced from the context of a computer game) seem to have profound implications.

Essentially, if you are offered cosmic powers in exchange for your mortal life, do you take them? What does this decision mean in terms of those you care about, and vice versa?

I would assume that taking on a divine "portfolio" or sphere of responsibility, changes a person right to their core. If you could take these powers and responsibilities, what assurance do you have that you remain "you"?

beaver_cheese · Post by **beaver_cheese** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 9:59 am

That depends on how you look at the whole process of ascending to Godhood. Since we can't do it in real life (thank goodness!), we can't run experiments to see what makes it tick. My opinion concerning your worldly relationships, unless you know the secrets of time dilation, you're going to strain them. As for your portfolio, heck, your guess is as good as mine. This delves too deeply into the realm of psychology and theology for my liking, so I'll just stop rambling here.

lucid · Post by **lucid** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:52 am

I always thought there were two endings? either you chose to be a god or no god? please explain =)

beaver_cheese · Post by **beaver_cheese** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 12:06 pm

Well, when you choose to be a god, you can either be a good, or an evil one. The mortal ending's the same, I reckon.

aVENGER2k · Post by **aVENGER2k** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:33 pm

Originally posted by Buck Satan:
What bothered me a bit about the "good" ending is that you are ascending into godhood to take the place of the god of *murder* (among other things). So, for example, if you are a Paladin, are you now a Lawful Good god of murder? or is your ascension intended to bring you into godhood of whatever suits your character?

No,you are wrong this time Buck.If you choose the "good" dialog options when you speak to the Solar,and your PC is Good aligned,you become a "Force of Balance and Good" so good aligned chars become Good Aligned Gods.BTW,to view the "goody" ToB ending movie simply add this line to your BALDUR.INI file under the [Movies] tab :

ENDMVE1=1

Then go into the game and play ToB ending One from the Movies list.

EDIT - Sabre posted the correct ending text,I posted from memory so I got it a bit mixed up,it's ok now

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: aVENGER2k ]

Sabre · Post by **Sabre** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 1:35 pm

This is what the cutscene at the end say when you become a Good god:

Your mortal essence fades away as you embrace your divinity.

Through friends and enemies, you have conquered your heritage, turning shadow to light, and now the infernal power of Bhaal no longer holds sway

You will take your place among the powers, as a force of balance and good.

It is the close of many things, but a new destiny stretches endlessly before you.

There are greater evils to fight than you might have dared imagine and sights among the planes that you had never thought possible.

In the years to come, your name shall be a beacon in times of darkness.

Tales of your life shall inspire and guide, while servants of darkness will flee your wrath.

It is a legacy that will forever change the face of the Realms.

So I think your role as a god is shaped by the paths you've chosen. In this case, you've chosen to be good so you'll be a good god.

Edit - You can find the texts for all of the endings, include NPCs, [url="http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/baldurs_gate_ii_tob_endings.txt"]here[/url].

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Sabre ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 3:09 pm

Your mortal essence fades away as you embrace your divinity.
Through friends and enemies, you have conquered your heritage, turning shadow to light, and now the infernal power of Bhaal no longer holds sway

You will take your place among the powers, as a force of balance and good.

It is the close of many things, but a new destiny stretches endlessly before you.

There are greater evils to fight than you might have dared imagine and sights among the planes that you had never thought possible.

In the years to come, your name shall be a beacon in times of darkness.

Tales of your life shall inspire and guide, while servants of darkness will flee your wrath.

It is a legacy that will forever change the face of the Realms.

Does this mean you actually get to develop and sell great games to powerful producers without being sold down the river by Electronic Arts?

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 3:57 pm

Originally posted by Savarius:
I would assume that taking on a divine "portfolio" or sphere of responsibility, changes a person right to their core. If you could take these powers and responsibilities, what assurance do you have that you remain "you"?

Would it matter? Is it wrong to be changed? Depends on the change, I guess...

Is it wrong to abandon your mortal companions in favor of ascending to godhood? You could make a bigger difference for your (and their) cause that way.

Magus · Post by **Magus** » Sun Jul 08, 2001 6:40 pm

Hmm...
Remember how Kelemvor replaced Myrkul after the Time of Troubles?

Kelemvor is definitely not an evil god. He may be considered neutral, or even good. Myrkul was evil incarnate. But the balance was still maintained. Could be the same way here.

I chose to remain mortal (oh my gosh!

) Why? I couldn't leave Aerie... Becoming a god would have meant abandoning her, even though I would have been a good god and cared for her. At least, that's what the game said...

IMO, why couldn't a god have a relationship with a mortal? Why couldn't I share my power with her, becoming a lesser god so that she could rule by my side?

rarsus · Post by **rarsus** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 12:19 am

Just wondering,

Would it be that the alingment of a 'good' god of murder over time gradualy changes to evil, just because most of the followers of the god of murder are evil.

Remember that the time of troubles had as a main result that the existence of the gods depend on the followers they have...

sp8472 · Post by **sp8472** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 12:59 am

I think I may have a resolution to this. Now, Cyric is the "interium" God of Murder. Yes, he is evil hence it fits the office. If you were good, then you fought this "taint" that was in you. The good ending however, never said that you took the office of the God of Murder, it merely stated that you became immortal. This would seem that Cyric then retains his office as the new God of Murder, while you become an adversary. This was the "threat" that Cyric was talking about earlier. I don't think the threat was a replacement for him. I took the good path and so my dialogue with him was not so involved. I apparently was not so much a threat to him. Perhaps if I was evil, I would be considered a larger threat by Cyric. However, this I don't know and cannot confirm.

As for the identity question, you would still be yourself despite acquiring divine status. Your essence, soul if like, is the same. Of course, I'm not talking about the Bhaal taint soul, but the a normal soul. I think, the Bhaal soul is just that part of immortality with the name given as soul. If indeed the Bhaal soul was evil, then I don't think you could have any lawful good characters.

aVENGER2k · Post by **aVENGER2k** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:14 am

Originally posted by Buck Satan:
I think you misunderstood me. What I don't understand is how you can become a good god in the place of Bhaal. That would throw off the whole godly order that Ao oversees, giving more "weight" to the gods of good.

It seams that I did,sorry

You have got a good point there,here's what I think might be a possible explanation.The first time I finished ToB was with my "goody-two-shoes" Cavalier PC which I imported from BG1,and I tried to roleplay him as best as I could,which was not that easy I must admit.

/roleplaying start/

"During his adventuring,on many occasions my PC was given many choices,most of them were about taking the power of the Lord of Murder or denying it.Naturaly being a Paladin,he attempted to resist the taint (which was reflected in various dialog options especially in BG2) more or less succesfully.When Irenicus took his very divine soul,the taint grew stronger,and he even gained the ability to transform into the Slayer - the very Avatar of Bhaal.As hard as it was,he refused,and resisted it as best as he could (I've never used the Slayer Change with him) and decided to stop Irenicus from causing more harm using his soul.During the later course of his adventures,he again met Sarevok,the man who murdered his foster father and also tried to kill him numerous times,but who was also his own brother.Although Sarevok was no longer a Child of Bhaal,as he lost the taint when he died,my PC still considered him as a brother,a man who was a prisoner of his destiny similar to himself,and eventually he even found the strength to forgive Sarevok hi sins,and even managed to lead him to the side of good (Sarevok's alignment change).During his conversations with the Solar,my PC decided it was too late to turn back now,too late to take back what already was,and calmly,he decided to embrace his destiny.Finally,after Mellisan fell,he was put in a difficult situation...to leave all he held dear and become a God,or to finally lead a normal life,without the taint of his father forcing his destiny.The choice was not easy,but he was a Paladin and he knew the dangers of Bhaal's power.He simply could not let it be simply hidden away.Someone would probably find it,sooner or later,and the whole cycle would start again.No,that he couldn't allow,and instead,my PC decided it was the best to contain the taint inside himself,for he had fought it his entire life and knew well how to deal with it...he became a God yes,but his own thoughts,his own soul denied and defeated Bhaal's evil taint and refused to take his Throne of Blood.He became a God,yes,but not a god of murder.Instead,he remained what he was all his life - a force of Balance and Good."

/roleplaying end/

The Forgotten Realms is made up of a variety of good, neutral, and evil gods, but they all form a sort of equilibrium together. Wouldn't removing an evil god and replacing him with a good one cause a few problems? If not murder, what does the protagonist become the god of? What force of good isn't already represented by a god in Faerun?

I agree with you here,this does indeed sound a bit strange,but except for the info I got from the books in the BG games and a few posts on various message boards,I don't know much about the Forgotten Realms and its whole Pantheon,so I can not say much more about that

Originally posted by Magus:
I couldn't leave Aerie... Becoming a god would have meant abandoning her, even though I would have been a good god and cared for her.

Heh,I thought about this too and I really don't understand why the PC couldn't care for his family when he became a God,but...somehow I didn't really like the how the second (ToB) part of her romance turned out,sooo...I ditched her in favour of the hot Solar chick

[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: aVENGER2k ]

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 11:21 am

Originally posted by Buck Satan:
The Forgotten Realms is made up of a variety of good, neutral, and evil gods, but they all form a sort of equilibrium together. Wouldn't removing an evil god and replacing him with a good one cause a few problems?

Perhaps the Evil gods were getting the upper hand, and this puts things back into balance.

Originally posted by Magus:
I chose to remain mortal (oh my gosh! ) Why? I couldn't leave Aerie... Becoming a god would have meant abandoning her, even though I would have been a good god and cared for her. At least, that's what the game said... IMO, why couldn't a god have a relationship with a mortal? Why couldn't I share my power with her, becoming a lesser god so that she could rule by my side?

Good point. If Bhaal can make you a god, why can't you make Aerie a god? And even if that doesn't work out, it's not as if mythology isn't full of god/mortal relationships anyway...

Originally posted by aVENGER2k:
I didn't really like the how the second (ToB) part of her romance turned out,sooo...I ditched her in favour of the hot Solar chick

So first you knock her up and then you leave her!? You, you...

(Just kidding, of course )

aVENGER2k · Post by **aVENGER2k** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 12:07 pm

Originally posted by Xyx:
So first you knock her up and then you leave her!? You, you...

(Just kidding, of course )

Well,heck it could have been a Haer'Dalis bastard,she was hanging around him a lot too you know

Now seriously,I loved the SoA part of the Aerie romance,but in ToB things were just happening too fast and were too,umm well...unrealistic for my taste

Also,I think it kinda sux that the romances dialogues are now based on your game progress,and do not appear randomly like they did in SoA,just my 2gp of course

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:37 am

Originally posted by aVENGER2k:
I think it kinda sux that the romances dialogues are now based on your game progress,and do not appear randomly like they did in SoA,just my 2gp of course

Ah, nice to know. At least that means you don't have to wait around just for Jaheira to speak up

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:55 am

I don't believe Bhaal was originally the Lord of Murder. When he selected his portfolio he chose Death. However, in his narrow, evil view of Death, he pursued his duties by murdering people, cutting good lives short.

Theoretically, a Good aligned god of Death would grant merciful death to those in pain, and his followers would kill only those who are evil. A Neutral aligned Death deity would have the most selective tastes in who to kill and who not to kill at all.
As someone pointed out earlier, Myrkul pursued his duties as god of the Dead the way an evil deity might, allowing his priests to summon the undead to overrun his enemies. Kelemvor, on the other hand, has charged his priests with seeking out and destroying the undead.
90% of what makes a god is how he pursues his duties.

As for taking Aerie or any of the romance subjects with you, forget about it. Gods must put their duties before anything else. Kelemvor and Mystra were lovers for a time, until they realized that their relationship was getting in the way of the proper pursuit of their duties.

volle · Post by **volle** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:27 am

Ah and if you roleplay with evil character you must know that evil characters want´s power. Power to control over normal people.
So I think that if you choose mortal life in the tob. You will not "roleplay".

sp8472 · Post by **sp8472** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:56 pm

So....Gods and mortals don't mix. I don't think so. Just ask the Greek Gods.

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ToB ending ethics spoilers

ToB ending ethics spoilers