Originally posted by monks rule:
<STRONG>So....Gods and mortals don't mix. I don't think so. Just ask the Greek Gods.</STRONG>
Don't try to speak with authority on subjects you clearly know very little about.
ToB ending ethics *spoilers*
Weren't there loads of demi-gods as the results of Zeus' escapades?Originally posted by Metatron:
<STRONG>
Don't try to speak with authority on subjects you clearly know very little about.</STRONG>
Nordic gods also mix pretty well with humans...
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
And there were loads of Bhaalspawn on faerun. The question is not "Do Gods like poontang?" The question is "Can Gods engage in deep, meaningful relationships with mortals and not have them end badly?"Originally posted by Xyx:
<STRONG>Weren't there loads of demi-gods as the results of Zeus' escapades?
Nordic gods also mix pretty well with humans...</STRONG>
The answer, in my oh-so-humble opinion, is no. Looking into Greek mythology (if you must establish a dichotomy between our world's mythology and Faerun's pantheons) reveals that love between Gods and Humans was something that almost -always- ended in tragedy. That is, actual love, not just a god getting his rocks off for one night only after which he abandoned his lover, who would then have a demigod child who would do great things yada yada yada.
I'm not so familiar with Norse mythology, but I don't recall any legends off the top of my head of Norse gods getting together with humans for protracted relationships.
Behold the Metatron - Herald of the Almighty and Voice of the One True God!
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beaver_cheese
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Please don't make so quick an assumption that the people on these threads are uneducated louts who don't know what they are talking about.
Your post merely made a reference that God's and Mortals do not mix, mentioning that Gods must put thier duties before relationships.
My reading of your words at the time suggested the meaning verbatim from your post. You did not mention anything of a meaningful relationship, although you did clarify your meaning in a later post. By mentioning that gods and mortals do not mix, I interpreted it as meaning that no mixing between the two could ever occur. I see that I was in error in that interpretation.
However, since you insisted that I know nothing about what I am talking about, I will put up a defense.
First, you already assume that no meaningful relationship can occur between a mortal and a God based on a God's responsibilites. Since when do God's responsibilites allow them not to pursue relationships? Is a God so busy with his duties that he/she can't do anything else? Is Hermes so busy with being a messenger that he couldn't pursue a relationship with anyone? If you think yes, then you make a distinction between Gods and mortals too concrete. Yes, Gods have power but they are human in attributes. They love, feel guilt, feel sorrow, etc. You don't think that this love feeling could ever be genuine?
Since you mentioned Kelemvor and Mystra you must concede that love can exist between a mortal and god.
Second, I'll admit that most of the Greek Gods escapades end badly. Since you know oh so much more about Greek mythology than me, then you should also know that the result of these endings is not only the God's fault in all cases. For Zeus, he was married so anything he did whether with a mortal or god was destined to fail...permiting that Hera somehow found out. I wouldn't blame Hera for not being pissed. But...what if Hera had not found out? What if Zeus got a divorce?
Example 1: Semele and Zeus. Had Hera not found out, Semele would not have been tricked into asking Zeus for his true form. What could have happened? Zeus may have split with Hera and pursued Semele. This kind of thing is all too commonplace in the human world. Are you to deny that love can exist after a divorce? This brings us to the actual circumstance of Zeus marrying her sister Hera. It was an unhappy marriage, but what was Zeus to do? Go against the Goddess of marriage?
Let us follow the result of Semele and Zeus, the son Dionysus. Technically, then Dionysus is a demi-god, but considered a full god. If you studied the cults to Dionysus you would know that too. He is of course God of wine and fertility. He went on to marry a mortal Ariadne. Thier marriage remains true, and NOTHING ended badly.
Third, back to who's at fault. I may be wrong but I'm guessing that you hold the God's ultimately responsible for mishap relationships. Not so. Look at Appolo and Coronis. Clearly Coronis was at fault here. An elaborate story here is unwarrented becuase I do not have your opinion on this matter.
Fourth, Ganymede and Zeus did not end badly either. He became the cup bearer to the Gods. Whether it was a real relationship as you would define it is up to interpretation.
So, lets recap. 1)Can God's feel true love? Yes. 2) Can God's sustain a relationship? Yes. 3) Can this all end in a good way?
That is up the the story teller, but if carried out as in everyday life, then why couldn't it? Clearly, mortals and Gods do "mix." It's just that such relationships do not end in happiness all the time, not that it must end that way, duty or otherwise.
Now, I have limited my analysis to Greek Mythology. However, if you still dont' believe that mortals and gods mix. Then I could expand my argument to include Hinduism if you so desire. There are plenty of examples there.
I apologize for anyone who had to suffer through this, but I was rather infuriated that personal attacks would be made on these forums, and had to repsond. In the future Metatron please don't make such attacks on other people who you don't know. Their background may be more (or less) then you assume it to be.
Your post merely made a reference that God's and Mortals do not mix, mentioning that Gods must put thier duties before relationships.
My reading of your words at the time suggested the meaning verbatim from your post. You did not mention anything of a meaningful relationship, although you did clarify your meaning in a later post. By mentioning that gods and mortals do not mix, I interpreted it as meaning that no mixing between the two could ever occur. I see that I was in error in that interpretation.
However, since you insisted that I know nothing about what I am talking about, I will put up a defense.
First, you already assume that no meaningful relationship can occur between a mortal and a God based on a God's responsibilites. Since when do God's responsibilites allow them not to pursue relationships? Is a God so busy with his duties that he/she can't do anything else? Is Hermes so busy with being a messenger that he couldn't pursue a relationship with anyone? If you think yes, then you make a distinction between Gods and mortals too concrete. Yes, Gods have power but they are human in attributes. They love, feel guilt, feel sorrow, etc. You don't think that this love feeling could ever be genuine?
Since you mentioned Kelemvor and Mystra you must concede that love can exist between a mortal and god.
Second, I'll admit that most of the Greek Gods escapades end badly. Since you know oh so much more about Greek mythology than me, then you should also know that the result of these endings is not only the God's fault in all cases. For Zeus, he was married so anything he did whether with a mortal or god was destined to fail...permiting that Hera somehow found out. I wouldn't blame Hera for not being pissed. But...what if Hera had not found out? What if Zeus got a divorce?
Example 1: Semele and Zeus. Had Hera not found out, Semele would not have been tricked into asking Zeus for his true form. What could have happened? Zeus may have split with Hera and pursued Semele. This kind of thing is all too commonplace in the human world. Are you to deny that love can exist after a divorce? This brings us to the actual circumstance of Zeus marrying her sister Hera. It was an unhappy marriage, but what was Zeus to do? Go against the Goddess of marriage?
Let us follow the result of Semele and Zeus, the son Dionysus. Technically, then Dionysus is a demi-god, but considered a full god. If you studied the cults to Dionysus you would know that too. He is of course God of wine and fertility. He went on to marry a mortal Ariadne. Thier marriage remains true, and NOTHING ended badly.
Third, back to who's at fault. I may be wrong but I'm guessing that you hold the God's ultimately responsible for mishap relationships. Not so. Look at Appolo and Coronis. Clearly Coronis was at fault here. An elaborate story here is unwarrented becuase I do not have your opinion on this matter.
Fourth, Ganymede and Zeus did not end badly either. He became the cup bearer to the Gods. Whether it was a real relationship as you would define it is up to interpretation.
So, lets recap. 1)Can God's feel true love? Yes. 2) Can God's sustain a relationship? Yes. 3) Can this all end in a good way?
That is up the the story teller, but if carried out as in everyday life, then why couldn't it? Clearly, mortals and Gods do "mix." It's just that such relationships do not end in happiness all the time, not that it must end that way, duty or otherwise.
Now, I have limited my analysis to Greek Mythology. However, if you still dont' believe that mortals and gods mix. Then I could expand my argument to include Hinduism if you so desire. There are plenty of examples there.
I apologize for anyone who had to suffer through this, but I was rather infuriated that personal attacks would be made on these forums, and had to repsond. In the future Metatron please don't make such attacks on other people who you don't know. Their background may be more (or less) then you assume it to be.
Hey monks, I may be misrembering here, and thus do not mind a gentle correction, but weren't the priests of Dionysis one of the more whacked out groups in their day? I mean I seem to remember that they were the original party animals, in a wontonly destructive kind of way. So while the initial relationship may have worked out, one of the extensions of that relationship may have been a bit dysfunctional.
R.Carter
R.Carter
Yes, the Dionysus cults were very wild. He is the god of wine and fertility. Hence it would be unsurprising to see that kind of behavior. It would also be mentioned that such descriptions written in the logs of Homer and company were somewhat biased. Dionysus was not the most popular god and a large part of the written records indicate resistence to him. Hence, he and his followers would be portrayed in a negative light. However, what I stated before was not what Dionysus did, but what the cult members did. It was to show that although Dionysus is techincally a half-god, he was considered a full god nevertheless. Hence my example of the cults. As for Dionysus's personal behavior, nothing is recorded that says his marriage ended badly. Hope this clears things up. If not ask.