Need Advice on Dual Classing

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:11 am

Haven't tried dual classing a human character before and would appreciate some advice. I decided to try it out in my third run through of IWD. I started a pretty well rolled character as a fighter with the idea of dualling after he reaches 9th level (I had read in another thread that 9th was a good point to do so), His stats are:
18/53 Str
18 Dex
16 Con
15 Int
09 Wis
13 Cha

The party is early in the Seldarine Hand and he is presently 8th level working on 9th. He has 3 slots on large sword prof., 2 on bow and 1 on mace. I had originally been thinking of going Bard, now I am wondering if Wizard would be better? Any thoughts out there?

Floyd_theBarber · Post by **Floyd_theBarber** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:12 pm

Fighter/Bard isn't a valid multiclass in 2nd edition rules so that's out. But Fighter/Mages are fun characters to play. They can cast all sorts of great spells including Mirror Image, Blur, Haste and Stoneskin, AND can fight decently in melee or ranged combat. The other option is a Fighter/Thief. They can make great archers, or they can stealth, backstab with a far lower THACO than a Thief ever could. Fighter/Thieves also add more melee fighting ability to the party, and thats never a bad thing. If you already have a thief in the party, I would go for a Fighter/Mage.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:29 am

[QUOTE=Philos]Haven't tried dual classing a human character before and would appreciate some advice. I decided to try it out in my third run through of IWD. I started a pretty well rolled character as a fighter with the idea of dualling after he reaches 9th level (I had read in another thread that 9th was a good point to do so), His stats are:
18/53 Str
18 Dex
16 Con
15 Int
09 Wis
13 Cha

The party is early in the Seldarine Hand and he is presently 8th level working on 9th. He has 3 slots on large sword prof., 2 on bow and 1 on mace. I had originally been thinking of going Bard, now I am wondering if Wizard would be better? Any thoughts out there?[/QUOTE]

To dual class you have to choose a classe that is eligible for multiclass.
Also you need to have 17 in the primary attributes of the class you want to dual to (mage -> int, priest ->wis, thief -> dex), so in your case you can dual only to a thief.
Also I think you are dualling too late, that means that you will recover your fighting abilities only in the end. I would have dualled at 7th lev at the most.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:11 am

Messed This One Up

Thanks for the input. I forgot about the requirement of having a 17 trait as the main prerequisite for the new class when rolling the character. Since I already have multiclass fighter/thief, not much advantage to changing.
I didn't mention that I will definitely do the HOW and maybe the TotL expansions. Taking that into consideration, Lompo, do you still think 9th is too late to switch. I will probably start a new game because I really wanted to give dual classing a try.

Erenor · Post by **Erenor** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:59 pm

Then try to plan ahead what you want to dual class. Cleric/Rangers are pretty cool and very effective. Fighter/Mages are really fun too, but I'd start as a Fighter for the HP early on, since whacking people works better in the beginning. Good luck!

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:58 am

[QUOTE=Philos] Taking that into consideration, Lompo, do you still think 9th is too late to switch. I will probably start a new game because I really wanted to give dual classing a try.[/QUOTE]

I still suggest to dual at 7th max, you will regain your fighter class fast and will enjoy you dual cass for more time: going to lev. 9 will grant you max 16 hp points more, +2 on Thac0 and an extra prof. point, not a great deal for me. Dualling at 6th you will need 92 kexp to have your dualled F/M, at 7th you need 154 kexp and at 9th you need 500 (!) kexp to have your F/M.
So it's up to you how you want to play.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:15 pm

Good Food for thought

Thanks for the advice. I plan to start a new game tonight or tomorrow. Very good points about the benefits vs. cost (in XP). Which combo I am not certain about yet though.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:52 am

Thanks for the Help

To all,

Thanks for the help. This has worked out great. I restarted with my original party minus the first dual candidate I had. I planned this new one as a fighter mage combo. He had 18/57 strength, 18 dex, 18 con, 18 int, 8 wis, 7 cha. I made the switch at 7th (had finished lvl 2 of Dragon's eye). Can definitely see the advantage of switching there vs 8th or 9th. I only had to go about halfway through the Hand before getting my fighter skills back. Plus I got "Kaylessa's chainmail armor" as the random "Kaylessa" item from that encounter (before I got her bow 2x and her sword once). Since it was elven chainmail armor I wondered if he could use it and cast spells while in it. Lo, and behold, yes he could! He can also carry a shield. So he is walking around at AC -4 without any protection spell buffs and a normal shield. Sweet!! He is now (for a short time) at the same level as my straight mage. So he will always be the same or one level less than her from here on out. He could end up being quite a one man wrecking crew. Thanks again everyone.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:54 am

deadly dual-class fighter mages

I think 7th level is a bit too soon to dual from fighter to mage, although it strikes a pretty nice balance (fighters get another 1/2 attack per round at lvl 7). Lvl 9 is ideal because it maximizes HP and gives another weapon proficiency point, yet allows the regaining of fighter levels at mage lvl 10, which isn't difficult. Otoh, if you have no mage casters other than the F/M, lvl 9 is probably too long to wait.

I recently completed a full IWD/HoW/TotL game with six characters on insane, with one of the characters a dual class fighter[13]/mage[x] (rest was paladin, mc ranger/cleric, mc fighter/druid, mc fighter/thief, and bard). I dualled from fighter to mage at the conclusion of the Severed Hand, completed Lower Dorn's up to the point of no return (the staircase), went to HoW, and regained fighter skills shortly thereafter. He finished the game at lvl 13/21 and is currently the backbone of my Heart of Fury party (same as insane party, but switched out the bard for a dual class evil cleric[14]/necromancer[x] I was developing in another game).

Endugu · Post by **Endugu** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:57 am

Reading all of this I wonder if its more useful (effective) to dual a fighter(9) to thief or a thief to fighter...originally I planned to do the later, focusing more on the fighter's part.
But now Im thinking hell level up very slowly before regaining his thief levels...
Any advice on whats better?

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:05 am

fighter/thieves

Why not take a multiclass fighter/thief?

I've never been a fan of the dual class fighter/thief or thief/fighter. Going fighter-to-thief is rather pointless, as you need your thief skills most at the beginning of the game, with peak need coming in Kuldahar (pick pocket skills, not necessary if using a bard as well) and on the last level of Dragon's Eye (for traps). Going thief-to-fighter really cuts down on the primary reasons for having a fighter dual class, extra HP and exceptional (18**) strength.

With a multiclass, you never go any length of time without the thief skills, and the levelling hit, HP loss, and loss of the ability to go to 5 PP in a melee weapon is not that significant. Versatility and convenience make up for it - a mc F/T is an excellent scout, devastating archer and more than capable of stepping into melee.

Edit: you can take a gnome or halfling for the +3 Helm, an elf for the bowmanship/swordsmanship, or a dwarf for better HP.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:04 pm

Concur on Multiclass F/T

I am in my 4th run through of IWD and IMHO the advantages of having a multiclass Fighter/Thief make it the best way to go. I have used only gnomes or a halfling for this character (just because of that great +3 helm). I fell into this on my first run through as I had picked a gnome (patterned after a PnP character I had) and discovered that helm at Conlon's. Have picked a gnome or halfling ever since.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:26 am

My opinion is that if you want a strong single class char, you go dual: dualing at a low-mid lev (max 7) you end with a strong single class with some good extra abilities; in the other cases go multiclass: what the use of playing as single class one third of the game, then another third as a different single class, and enjoing your "multiclass" only in the end? Just start as a multi!

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:45 am

the eternal dual class vs. multiclass debate

Generally speaking I agree, lompo, but there are certain advantages available for some dual classes in some circumstances - the rewards can be worth the wait.

#1 - excess HP - even with all the buffs available for a F/M, would you rather have a lvl 9/10 mc F/M with ~96 HP, or a lvl 9/10 dc F/M with ~130 HP?

#2 - stacked weapon proficiency points - a high level dc F/M can have 5 PP in greatswords, axes, daggers (for mage dagger), or whatever. This significantly adds to the versatility and power of a F/M.

I wouldn't recommend dualing over lvl 9 or so on core (normal) difficulty, but dualing at high levels is very powerful if you play on hard (150% XP of core difficulty, for quest AND monster XP) or insane (200% of core XP, ditto).

Hands down, the best class for this is the F/M - the HP differential is the greatest between dc and mc. It's not really worth it for a F/C, R/C, or F/D because the differential is quite low - besides, it's harder to roll a superpowered dc character, especially a F/D.

As stated above, a dual class F/T is pretty inefficient, so that's one I surely don't recommend.

Caster classes do ok with dual classing, though, especially when the casting class is the second class. It levels a LOT quicker than the mc option at higher levels, so eventually the second, casting class of a dc will outstrip a similar character build that is the mc option. An acquaintance of mine on another board swears by dual classing at high levels so as to reap the benefits of a party in which every character (or nearly every character, as he also likes to use bards) is capable at any given time of providing the party with superior tanking skills. A bit overkill, IMO, but each to their own.

I once ran a caster party almost to the end of IWD on insane difficulty (got bored of it in Lower Dorns); 4 mc, 1 sc, 2 dc - mc F/M, F/C, F/D; D; T/C and C/Necro. The T/C ended up as a higher level cleric than the F/C, and consequently cast all the spell buffs that had level-dependent duration.

Endugu · Post by **Endugu** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:15 am

In general, Id agree with the overall tone here, since I also prefer multiclassed fighter/thieves over dualclassed ones.

Its just that this time I wanted an additional party member, that is a) human, b) not a pure fighter and c) not dualclassed to a spellcasting class.
Therefore I created a fighter/thief and was looking for the best apporach in doing so and to see if a fighter -> thief makes more sense than a thief -> fighter.

Thanks for the input so far!

The7thStooge · Post by **The7thStooge** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:42 pm

The times that I dual, I will take a fighter, put all his proficiency points into either hammer or mace, then dual to a cleric at level 9. If memory serves, the cleric will get to level ten right around the time you go into the caverns at Dorn's Deep, before first entering it. Either that, or around the time when you obtain the first badge.

It's been a while since I played, though, so don't quote me on that. But this character does quite a number on the opposition.

The7thStooge...

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:55 am

Debated waiting till 9th to switch

I had a fighter that I switched to mage at 7th. I can see advantages both directions. He still has 6 profic. slots I split between bow and long sword, although another 1 in bow (for a total of 4) would be pretty nice. Still, he has 100 hps even with the switch at 7 (has 18 con). He is really starting to come into his own now.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:09 pm

You can only have a max of 3 PP in a ranged weapon (other than melee weapons with throwing equivalents, e.g. axe and dagger). Sorry.

However, an additional PP in long sword would be good - the long sword of action (+4, extra attack) was just made for a rampaging, buffed F/M.

No worries. I'm sure you will be very happy with a F[7]/M[x]. If you were going to take the character into HoF mode I would still recommend dualing later, though.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:09 am

Hadn't planned to do HOF this time around. Just HOW and TotL, but might change my mind. I won't feel bad about the switch at 7th if I do choose to to try HOF. I give up a few hit points (If you count average die rolls around 9/10, or 16 if I max it) and 1 pp. But it is so nice being able to use both so quickly and I will be farther down the wizard path which might be real helpful. If I start a party with HOF in mind I will probably wait till 9th though

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:47 am

[QUOTE=Floyd_theBarber]Fighter/Bard isn't a valid multiclass in 2nd edition rules so that's out.[/QUOTE]
Yes it is. It's just not possible in the Bioware Engine.

In the 2E rules, ANY dual class is possible, barring alingment.