People in the Hommlet Inn attacking my party - a bug?

bariumdose · Post by **bariumdose** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:19 am

I'm not sure if this is a bug or not - any advice would be most appreciated.

I'm running a neutral good party with a paladin, fighter, druid, cleric, and wizard. After clearing out the moathouse, I rested in the green camping area in that one tower of the moathouse. I had the fungus figurine and used it for the first time - no enemies to cast it on, of course, but I was just messing around with it.

Anyway, I go back to Hommlet and sold some scale armor to Brother Smyth. Nothing wrong there. But when I went to the Welcome Wench Inn, I was suddenly thrown into combat. The skinny monk came in with the first attack. I immediately fled combat, left the inn, and then re-entered to see what would happen. This time around the Big Fighter companion to the Skinny monk started combat with us, and the whole inn was after us.

What was strange was that one of the Hommlet guards started fighting with Furnok before both the guard and Furnok started melee with my party. I eventually had to kill everyone, earning the Butcher of Hommlet street cred.

Is this a bug? Or, did I do something (use the fungus figurine out of combat) that would cause such enmity amongst the townpeople?

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:51 am

Hommlet 28 days later

Bariumdose,

I had "similar" experience. I suspect that the game tends to lump all (or most) neutral NPCs in one location as a group. Therefore if one of the group gets into a fight, they all do.
Early on I was playing around and trying different things to see how various features in the game worked. I tried adding and then removing various NPC's to see how that worked, when I tried to remove Elmo from the party, he immediately attacked me and then so did the entire Inn!!!! Therefore it appeared that if you fight someone (maybe anyone) in a tavern, the whole group takes pity on them and gangs up on you. I experimented further by adding Elmo and then going outside. Elmo still attacked and after neutralizing him, I went inside. Everyone was fine and acted normal.

Did you remove an NPC while in the Tavern on a previous trip?

I sold the fungus statue so unfortunately I don't have any idea whether it was involved.

bariumdose · Post by **bariumdose** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:21 am

Well, er, yes . . .

Hmmm, now that you mentioned it, I had cleared out half of the moathouse with Fruella whom I had let "die" during one of the encounters. If I remember correctly, I think I went back to the Inn and dropped her body after using it as a pack animal for loading up on the spoils of war (leather armor from the bandits, etc.) to be sold. I can't remember exactly where I dropped her body. I think it may have been either at the Inn or possibly in the green camping zone area in the moathouse (you know, where you have to kill the spider first).

If I had dropped her body in the Inn, I know for a fact that none of the patrons attacked me at that point. Now that I think about it, I'm almost positive that I dropped her body in the green camping zone of the moathouse, cuz last night I saw all of her possessions neatly piled up where the corpse decomposed as all corpses in the game seem to do if you wait long enough.

Anyway, I don't suppose there's any way to get the Inn patrons back on your side. I was hoping to use the Inn as a rest point.

[QUOTE=Philos]Bariumdose,

I had "similar" experience. I suspect that the game tends to lump all (or most) neutral NPCs in one location as a group. Therefore if one of the group gets into a fight, they all do.
Early on I was playing around and trying different things to see how various features in the game worked. I tried adding and then removing various NPC's to see how that worked, when I tried to remove Elmo from the party, he immediately attacked me and then so did the entire Inn!!!! Therefore it appeared that if you fight someone (maybe anyone) in a tavern, the whole group takes pity on them and gangs up on you. I experimented further by adding Elmo and then going outside. Elmo still attacked and after neutralizing him, I went inside. Everyone was fine and acted normal.

Did you remove an NPC while in the Tavern on a previous trip?

I sold the fungus statue so unfortunately I don't have any idea whether it was involved.[/QUOTE]

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:12 pm

This is a known problem some people were having back in the day, and I don't recall if it was ever determined exactly what the problem was. I'll poke around.

One thing I do know is that the fighter and monk guys are evil, so they may for some reason have taken unkindly to your actions at the moathouse. I know there's also a thing where if you sell some of Lareth's items to the evil merchants this tells them you're an enemy and they send an assassin after you. Not sure if any of that is playing a role or not, but it sounds suspiciously like the evil guys attacked you and maybe the AI got confused or something. Did the rest of the inn attack you too, or did they just enter combat, and you assumed they were fighting you? Could it be they wer going to help you fight the monk until you killed one of them? That would probably get you the butcher of hommlett.

bariumdose · Post by **bariumdose** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:44 pm

Yes, that makes a lot of sense

Again, Lord Plothos, your deductive reasoning rivals that of Sherlock Holmes.

Yes, I noticed that the Big Fighter and Monk were always the ones who initiated combat. Being evil guys and probably hearing about our reputation that we cleared out the moathouse, they would logically attack us. It also explains some of the weird melee initiated by the other non-evil Inn patrons, such as the Hommlet guard attacking Furnok the thief (although I'm not sure about Furnok's alignment, and I don't remember if Furnok attacked the guard first.).

It's very possible that I may have hit one of the innocent bar patrons when I was fending off the evil monk, causing the rest of the bar patrons to attack my party. We were in close quarters, and everything was pretty dark in the inn. So, my next question is can I kill the evil twosome without incurring the wrath of the townsfolk? I would assume I could get away with murder if it was in self-defense.

The odd thing is that in an earlier game where I was playing a lawful good party, I didn't get this hostile action from the monk and the big fighter when I returned from clearing the moathouse. Nor did I get that reaction when I played a lawful evil party, but then since we're evil I can understand that the monk and big fighter would be more sympathetic to us.

Thanks for the insight. I'm going to re-enter the inn and see who is actually hostile to us.

[QUOTE=Lord Plothos]This is a known problem some people were having back in the day, and I don't recall if it was ever determined exactly what the problem was. I'll poke around.

One thing I do know is that the fighter and monk guys are evil, so they may for some reason have taken unkindly to your actions at the moathouse. I know there's also a thing where if you sell some of Lareth's items to the evil merchants this tells them you're an enemy and they send an assassin after you. Not sure if any of that is playing a role or not, but it sounds suspiciously like the evil guys attacked you and maybe the AI got confused or something. Did the rest of the inn attack you too, or did they just enter combat, and you assumed they were fighting you? Could it be they wer going to help you fight the monk until you killed one of them? That would probably get you the butcher of hommlett.[/QUOTE]

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:12 pm

Bariumdose & Lord Plothos,

I'm thinking the problem might lie somewhere else. My NG party has gone back to the Inn a number several times since clearing the Moathouse. They have the repution in their log book for doing so but have never been challenged. I have even had a PC or 2 speak directly to the monk Turuko. He never acts any different.

bariumdose · Post by **bariumdose** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:42 pm

Well, that's certainly a possibility. As I mentioned, I had played for a while a Lawful Good party that cleared the moathouse and had no problems interacting with Turoko the monk or with other bar patrons. Who knows? Maybe I'll kill just TUroko and the Big Fighter, then flee combat, and then reenter the inn to see if everything is reset to normal.

[QUOTE=Philos]Bariumdose & Lord Plothos,

I'm thinking the problem might lie somewhere else. My NG party has gone back to the Inn a number several times since clearing the Moathouse. They have the repution in their log book for doing so but have never been challenged. I have even had a PC or 2 speak directly to the monk Turuko. He never acts any different.[/QUOTE]

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:26 pm

I did not mean to imply that simply clearing the moathouse will cause Turuko and Kobort to become hostile. This generally will not happen. However, there may be a more roundabout way in which the two things are related. The traders, for instance, do not send an assassin after you until you sell them some of Lareth's gear. T&K are not only evil, but somehow associated with larger plots, given their role in the plot of some evil parties, which is why I suggested they might have become hostile to you for some reason related to Lareth. If that's so, it's not just the clearing of the moathouse that did it, but possibly something you may have said to Lareth, something you sold, or any number of other possibilities. Hard to say.

bariumdose · Post by **bariumdose** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:40 pm

Well, the only thing I did to Lareth was I didn't even give him time to initiate conversation. I went right into combat and killed him before he even had a chance to surrender. Maybe I dealt justice a wee bit too harshly?

[QUOTE=Lord Plothos]I did not mean to imply that simply clearing the moathouse will cause Turuko and Kobort to become hostile. This generally will not happen. However, there may be a more roundabout way in which the two things are related. The traders, for instance, do not send an assassin after you until you sell them some of Lareth's gear. T&K are not only evil, but somehow associated with larger plots, given their role in the plot of some evil parties, which is why I suggested they might have become hostile to you for some reason related to Lareth. If that's so, it's not just the clearing of the moathouse that did it, but possibly something you may have said to Lareth, something you sold, or any number of other possibilities. Hard to say.[/QUOTE]

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:50 pm

Could be. Or maybe you were wearing some of his stuff or sold it or something. Could just as easily be a weird bug that only happens under very specific circumstances. I'll look around some more.

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:02 pm

Hmmm, just found this in an old co8 thread:

In my case, I could clear the moathouse almost entirely, but if I cleared it completely, the villagers went hostile. For me, it was the two bugbears in the "closets" on the lower-right corner of the first bugbear room. If I don't open those doors, I kill all the other bugbears and all is well. If I open those doors, and kill those last two bugbears, the village goes hostile.

That's just really weird, but you could try reloading an old save and not kill those buggies to see if that helps. Can't imagine what the deal is, unless the game for some reason counts these guys as villagers or something. Just too odd.

There was also mention of somebody paying off the gnolls as part of the problem. Did you speak with the gnolls at all? I'd also try talking to Lareth and telling him to take a hike... spoiler...: (he'll betray you if you take him with you, and the villagers will attack you if he's in your party).

bariumdose · Post by **bariumdose** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:13 am

Holy plot twists, Batman! You reminded me of some of the things I did and didn't do in my game where the Inn patrons turned against me.

Ok, here's what I did in my Neutral Good game that was different from my other past games involving a Lawful Good and Lawful Evil party (all running at the same time but none finished.):

In my NG game, instead of paying off the Gnolls, I killed them all without initiating dialogue. (I wanted the experience, and I already knew where Lareth's lair was.). I also opened the closet door to reveal the hidden Bugbears, both of whom I dispatched. And, I killed Lareth before he had a chance to tell me where the ToEE was located or offered to surrender.

Those are the only different actions I took in the NG game versus my LG and LE games. In the LG and LE games, I was never turned on by the Inn patrons. Doesn't make any sense, but perhaps again I had dealt justice too harshly, which triggered the hostile response from Turoko and Kobort. Once we engaged in combat, I think the AI engine assumed we had started the fight and sent the remaining Inn patrons against us. Weird logic or a bug, but I think your explanation fits what I'm seeing in my NG game.

Oh, well, luckily, I can avoid the Inn and just rest up at the moathouse tower.

Thanks again for looking into this for me.
[QUOTE=Lord Plothos]Hmmm, just found this in an old co8 thread:

In my case, I could clear the moathouse almost entirely, but if I cleared it completely, the villagers went hostile. For me, it was the two bugbears in the "closets" on the lower-right corner of the first bugbear room. If I don't open those doors, I kill all the other bugbears and all is well. If I open those doors, and kill those last two bugbears, the village goes hostile.

That's just really weird, but you could try reloading an old save and not kill those buggies to see if that helps. Can't imagine what the deal is, unless the game for some reason counts these guys as villagers or something. Just too odd.

There was also mention of somebody paying off the gnolls as part of the problem. Did you speak with the gnolls at all? I'd also try talking to Lareth and telling him to take a hike... spoiler...: (he'll betray you if you take him with you, and the villagers will attack you if he's in your party).[/QUOTE]

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:23 am

Sure thing. Good call on that moathouse tower. I'd forgotten about that. You can also buy the house in Nulb.

Anyway, I've certainly played games where I've killed the gnolls without talking to them and opened both closets to kill the buggies, and have never had the inn people turn on me. Perhaps it's a combination of these things with the no-dialog-with-Lareth thing, as I'm pretty sure I always wind up speaking to him in some way (usually when he gets low on hp and begs for mercy in his arrogant fashion).

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:30 am

Found this too:

Open the console window with Shift+Tilde. Type "game.party[0].reputation_remove( 1 )" and press Enter. You will no longer be labelled as "Butcher of Hommlet".

Probably won't help avoid getting attacked in hommlet, but if you do get attacked, you could kill 'em all, the erase the reputation and go on as normal. This way, you could continue to use the inn in hommlet. You'd have to convince yourself there are still people in the lobby and that you did nothing wrong, but this would probably work.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:52 am

Holy Plot Twists

Holy plot twists is right!!
This is certainly turning into an interesting "bug" hunt. Not trying to muddy the waters but just for consideration. My NG party took out the bugbears in the closet, killed Lareth (although he did try to smooth talk us after getting taking down to badly injured or near death). One of my characters is wearing Lareth's plate and another is wearing his necklace (kind of liked it and haven't felt like selling it yet). The one wearing the necklace was one of the ones that was talking to Turuko on a subsequent trip to the inn. I can't remember for certain but I "think" I wiped out the gnolls.
However, having said this, I must also mention that this was done with an unpatched and unmodified version. Lord Plothos I am still having problems with the patch but will talk on that in the other thread I started so as not to get this thread off track. Could it be that the patch or temple.dll changes the situation back in the Inn perhaps!?!

bariumdose · Post by **bariumdose** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:04 pm

Philos, thanks for reminding me of one other thing I did when I returned to the Inn in hommlet after clearing out the moathouse. I remember having one of my characters wear Lareth's necklace and another player wearing his Ring of Freedom of Movement and another wearing his breastplate before entering the Inn. That may have triggered the hostile response from Turoko and Kobort. I'll have to retry by not wearing the necklace and entering the Inn.

However, I'm almost positive that in my other games my players wore his paraphrenalia and entering the Inn without causing a combat situation.

I'm playing with the co8 mod, Atari Patch 2, and Moebius' temple.dll. I don't think these patches and mods are causing the hostile Inn scenario, since my other games did not involve automatic melee with the Inn patrons.

[QUOTE=Philos]Holy plot twists is right!!
This is certainly turning into an interesting "bug" hunt. Not trying to muddy the waters but just for consideration. My NG party took out the bugbears in the closet, killed Lareth (although he did try to smooth talk us after getting taking down to badly injured or near death). One of my characters is wearing Lareth's plate and another is wearing his necklace (kind of liked it and haven't felt like selling it yet). The one wearing the necklace was one of the ones that was talking to Turuko on a subsequent trip to the inn. I can't remember for certain but I "think" I wiped out the gnolls.
However, having said this, I must also mention that this was done with an unpatched and unmodified version. Lord Plothos I am still having problems with the patch but will talk on that in the other thread I started so as not to get this thread off track. Could it be that the patch or temple.dll changes the situation back in the Inn perhaps!?![/QUOTE]

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:17 pm

Certainly is strange!?!

It would certainly be interesting to hear what happens when you try the change. My group had all those things on and no sign of trouble. There must be some odd combination of conditions that is triggering this. But what they are is becoming quite a mystery. But at least you can use the tower and Nulb to safely rest if need be.

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:20 pm

While patch 2 could have something to do with this, it's a virtual certainty that temple.zip did not, as the dialog files and such are not contained in temple.dll. The few rules that get added to the data folder wouldn't affect this either.

I did PM you, Philos, by the way.

The necklace may be playing a part. Do let us know what happens with that, Bar. I suspect for some combinations of patches and such it may be the following combination that results in problems: killing the gnolls without talking, killing the closet buggies, then NOT getting any dialog with Lareth before killing him. Perhaps the necklace on top of this? And it goes without saying it may be something completely different.

bariumdose · Post by **bariumdose** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:02 am

Hi, guys,

Just an update on the Hostile Inn Patrons in Hommlet problem:

I disarmed myself of all of Lareth's weapons, treasure, and armor but kept them in my players' inventory and then re-entered the Inn. Again, I was forced into combat by Turoko, Kobort, and, oddly enough, by the Innkepper Ostier Grundigoot. Before I did any action and using my cursor arrow, I hovered over every inn patron to see what their halo colors looked like. As you know, hostile creatures have red halos while neutral or allied creatures have green halos. I noticed that initially only Turoko, Kobort, and Ostier have red haloes; everyone else had green halos which only turned to red after a combat round had passed.

Well, I'm still confused by what triggered the hostile response. On a tangential note, I'm tempted to see what would happened if I killed everyone in the Inn except for one person, looting their bodies and then fleeing combat. Would my paladin fall? Would the surviving patron still attack me if I re-entered the Inn? I kinda want Furnok's ring of invisibility and his jewels, but the only way to get them is to kill him and loot.

Mulligan · Post by **Mulligan** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:40 am

Hi there..

You should not, under ANY cirumstsances, play the game unpatched.

The bug list for TOEE unpatched is like 5000++ !!

You'll get annoyed,frustrated and angry and will most likely toss the game in the thrashcan.

However, there are a few issues that need clarification:

If you accidently do something EVIL (according to your party setup) in the wrong place, Homlet goes Hostile.

1) Meleny joins and dies, if you enter her home and talk to her father Homlet goes bananas if the corpse is in your party lineup. Same for Fruella. Dropping the corpses in the wilderness seems to work. And you have to do it to get her "Cleaver".

2) Elmo is in the group. You attack a "good" aligned creature or mess with his brother or does quests for the temple. If you temp. remove him he attacks,if in Homlet the guards and townspeople also turn red, if in Nulb the same if
Otis is alive. Dropping Elmo in a cave or such seems to work.

3) Killing Lareth never has effect, but having him in the party makes Homletters avoid you with comments like "I don't want to talk to you/What's wrong with you/You make me scared" etc.

I could go on and on, but most of these probs. were discussed when the game came, and the buglist were 2.5 miles long.

Patch 2 and/or the fixes that Co8 have made reduces the buglist by 97%..,

Try this first and then see if it works ok.

Charge!!