IWD2 Powergaming guide: please post related questions, comments or input here!

[silverdragon72]

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please post questions, comments or input here!


thanks!

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[Dedigan]

First off, thanks for the guide. It should save a lot of question time and gives me a quick reference when you put up your powergaming multiclassing post. I use yours more than I use the UPP or JUPP books. Great work so far.

Second, constructive criticism:
None of what I have to say really must be altered. It is all more just what I prefer

- ECL races start with more EXP - so all races need 1000 EXP to level 2!

With the exception of Deep Gnomes in an unmodded game. They need 6000 EXP for level 2.

sensitive to daylight: also not that big problem as most fights are inside and you can rest during day that you can fight the few difficult outside battles at night!

The fights are about 50/50 inside/outside as far as I recall. But a -1 to your BAB doesn't make much difference, and since there's no time limit, it doesn't hurt to sleep until night.

Drow Section:

- great stat boni - but the +2 on CHA are useless

It isn't useless for the almost never used female drow cleric/sorcerer or cleric/bard builds. Both can be extremely effective.

Section II, 1, Races for special builds, Aasimar

as the PAL level allows you to use a special item you won't get problems with the missing SR!

Why not just say Holy Avenger? It doesn't really spoil anything to say it, and you already mentioned Chain of Drakkas.

Finally, humans are also good for druid or bard multi class builds. For example, my favorite fighter(4)/bard(26) can't use drow or DG or Aasimar or Tiefling without EXP penalties. And with Bard(9)/Druid(21) (especially in modded games) humans are the best race.

[silverdragon72]

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1. you're right about the DG - but as this is considered as bug you should mod the game at this point anyway

2. AFAIR it's not 50/50 maybe 80/20 or 70/30 inside/outside - but especially in the early game (until goblin fortress) you fight more or less only outside and at this early point of the game the "light mali" can hurt!

3. you are right for these builds (never use them myself) - in most drow builds CHA isn't that important and therefore the best choice for min/max!

4. will change this

5. will clarify this


thanks for your input!

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[Philos]

Definitions Please

Silver Dragon,

I have been reading your excellent guides but have a couple of questions. If you have explained these terms somewhere and I missed them I apologize.
What do the following abbreviations mean:

BAB (basic attack bonus, perhaps?)
DG
UPP
JUPP
SR

Thanks

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=Philos]Silver Dragon,

I have been reading your excellent guides but have a couple of questions. If you have explained these terms somewhere and I missed them I apologize.
What do the following abbreviations mean:

BAB (basic attack bonus, perhaps?)
DG
UPP
JUPP
SR

Thanks[/QUOTE]


BAB = base attack bonus
DG = Deep Gnome
UPP = ultimate powergaming party (by Ken J. Egervari)
JUPP = jukka's ultimate powergaming party (by Jukka Mikkonen)
SR = spell resistance


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[koz-ivan]

my first reaction is why is this party / guide any better then those that have gone before, both upp and jupp had a focus / plan on how that party is supposed to play.

while currently this is a collection of some very nice builds it lacks the base tactics or roles that each member is supposed to play.

to expand on that there are a lot of very quick rules and not so much explination on why certiain choices were made.

(example)

wizards are capped by you at level 20, yet sorc's should go to at least lv 25. you may well have a very good reason for this, but it's not explained.

2nd major gripe - don't go down the summons vs hof path. it's dull.

q: how does this influence the game?

a: in several ways:

- your PC can't stand melee without an ultimate AC or buffs like MI!
- if you don't have the one or the other you need to rely on summons - but due to the casting time this won't work in every battle!
- damage based spells are quite useless
- turning undead won't work anymore (fort-save )
- also all fort-save based spells won't work anymore!
- builds without caster-levels are completly useless in HOF

some valid points, primarily the difficulty of using fort saves, left out are spells that effect opponents w/ lower hit points or a number of hit dice. (some of the power words most notably)

also omitted is the increased usefulness of charm / hold.

and some points that are misguided at best, in paticular the last. non casters can do fine in hof even as hof complicates things. melee types should be prepared to transition to missle damage but they can still be effective even on the front lines - if properly supported by your casters.

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now the quick hits:

interesting trick #1 -> sneak attack works w/ mord's sword, while that's not gamebreaking it can lead to dealing a lot of extra damage even if it's only 2d6. (also makes rogues appealing mix ins w/ sorcs given other benefits - in class talking skills, evasion ect)

trick #2 -> main cleric can also be drow female, won't get hit w/ multiclass penalty even if you add monk and pally levels early.

trick #3 -> rather than load up a caster w/ all or many of the elemental feats you'll be better served taking one or two then picking up additional spell schools - charm and transmutation in paticular. (or just stick to spirit of flame)

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longer hit -

transmutation is your firend, iirc there are some class specific quests for transmuters in the underdark, not a big deal if you don't have one, but if you are looking for a specialist wizard they are a very nice choice.

further, while trans doesn't have many spells it's got two that are more than worth it - slow and disintigrate. slow can mean that your enemies only deal 1/2 damage, when combined w/ mass haste your enemies move at 1/4th your ground speed, and are easier to hit. and slow is tough to save against as it's a wil save and -2.

disintigrate preceeds fod by 2 levels, and can target undead, and it looks way sweet. bg2 players should note that disintigrate is now the neutron bomb - items are not harmned by this spell. plus in situations like battle squares or large scale combats having both fod and disintigrate may be required.

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enchantment - having the ability to either hold or control the enemy is almost gamebreaking in hof, further even in hof will saves are not usually as high as fort. (should be common sense, enemy mages should be disintigrated / fod'd or wotb'd - enemy ftrs can be charmed, dominated, held.)

nothing will turn the tide in battle like having the enemy shock troops suddenly changing sides.

anyway, enough for now...

[silverdragon72]

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1st thanks for your input - critics and new ideas are always welcome!


I just started with this guide a few days ago and just merged answers on frequently asked question from different threads into one as a first step!

I tried to rework the one or the other chapter as I find the time, but I'm still in the very beginning!

If I find the time I will add more on tactics and explanations on "why is build X designed this way"!


Concerning UPP and JUPP, I put the links in chapter 1 to encourage all to read these guides as they are good (even if I personally not agree with UPP in several points), and make an own decision on how to build an ultimate party.

From my points guides are just what they are: *guides*!
It's good to read and understand them, but at some point you have to look at the pros and cons of each argumentation and then make an own decision!



Back to some of your points:

concerning "power-word" spells - absolutely right - as I mentioned that enemies have several hundred HP in HOF I thought that was logical - but I will add this!

charm & hold spells are certainly better in HOF then in normal - but most "problems" are better and faster solved with WoB!

...but will add this!

I don't agree on non-caster builds - ok useless is maybe wrong - but from my point of view there are better melee builds available!

And I don't like PCs depending to much on other party-members during battle!

You certainly can beat HOF with 3 or 4 Barb X - Fighter 4 as long as you add 2 clerics with tons of heal and heal all and resurect!

But this way you always have to care about your barbs that they don't run out of HP - and DR is nice but later in HOF it won't help much anymore!

For this reason any of PCs have at least MI, blur, blink and/or a very high AC!

And to achieve at least one of both you always need at least some caster levels!


trick one: I know - but forgot to mention (as this isn't that essential) - but every wiz build has 3 rogue levels!


trick2: yes it could be a female drow - didn't mention the reasons why it's aasimar so far:

- +2 wiz
- as main divine caster she should get fast access to some cleric spells (ECL1 vs ECL2)
- as she will use holy avenger she don't need SR that much!

but from the EXP penalty the drow would be better choice if you take the mix-in levels early! But this build should level up as cleric as fast as possible and adds the one or the other Pal level when needed and the monk levels in mid of HOF - as they are all ilmater you don't need to take pal or monk levels in a row!


trick 3: did I write this? Will have a look!


trick 4: If you have more infos on the transmuter quests in underdark I will add them!

...btw. having a specialist wiz - doesn't fit well in my party concept!


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[koz-ivan]

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1st thanks for your input - critics and new ideas are always welcome!


I just started with this guide a few days ago and just merged answers on frequently asked question from different threads into one as a first step!

I tried to rework the one or the other chapter as I find the time, but I'm still in the very beginning!

If I find the time I will add more on tactics and explanations on "why is build X designed this way"!

looking forward to reading that.

charm & hold spells are certainly better in HOF then in normal - but most "problems" are better and faster solved with WoB!

i disagree on this point, and your earlier caution about enemy fort saves seems to back me up on this point.

given many of the swarm attack battles (the bridge in hof for example, but most of the 1st chapter in hof applies) there are more badguys then wotb can clear out and quite often the battlefield is bigger then the area of effect.

imho both wotb and mass domi have their tactical uses, so it's not like charm can replace wotb. just that it's worth having at least some focus in enchantment (or a dreadmaster w/ gsf) for that matter.

I don't agree on non-caster builds - ok useless is maybe wrong - but from my point of view there are better melee builds available!

And I don't like PCs depending to much on other party-members during battle!

You certainly can beat HOF with 3 or 4 Barb X - Fighter 4 as long as you add 2 clerics with tons of heal and heal all and resurect!

But this way you always have to care about your barbs that they don't run out of HP - and DR is nice but later in HOF it won't help much anymore!

For this reason any of PCs have at least MI, blur, blink and/or a very high AC!

And to achieve at least one of both you always need at least some caster levels!

actually this makes a lot of sense, in hindsight my more effective hof "warriors" did use some mix ins.

trick2: yes it could be a female drow - didn't mention the reasons why it's aasimar so far:

- +2 wiz
- as main divine caster she should get fast access to some cleric spells (ECL1 vs ECL2)
- as she will use holy avenger she don't need SR that much!

but from the EXP penalty the drow would be better choice if you take the mix-in levels early! But this build should level up as cleric as fast as possible and adds the one or the other Pal level when needed and the monk levels in mid of HOF - as they are all ilmater you don't need to take pal or monk levels in a row!

that's a bit of a pet peeve of mine, if a build is meant to include monk (or rogue really) for evasion, why wait until the end of the game, when it can be helping all along?

that being said the aasim. will level slightly quicker and won't have any dayfighting problems - could be a deciding factor when starting out in targos - or it's a question of taste and i'm not sure it matters much in the long run.

trick 3: did I write this? Will have a look!

i was under that impression, what you wrote was:

most important feats: GSF evoc & necro, elemental feats (don't take SP cause you will damage your own party more then the enemy this way!)

skills: concentration maxed & spellcraft 10 for elemental feats

agreed on gsf evoc & necro, and at least spirit of flame, beyond that i like to add more sf & gsf. (trans, enchantment)

trick 4: If you have more infos on the transmuter quests in underdark I will add them!

i'll see if i can dig them up from a walkthrough somewhere it's been a long time.

iirc the transmuter stuff was pretty weak compared to the dreadmaster or pally quests. you could make more stuff in the red wizards lab provided you had a transmuter w/ a decent alchemy score.

what you could do (some still works w/o a trans, but not all)

1. animate golem.
2. frost giant strength potions
3. potion that perm, gives 5 vulnerability to fire and 5 immunity to cold - or vice versa...

...btw. having a specialist wiz - doesn't fit well in my party concept!
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i'm wondering why you chose to not have a specialist, imho if chosen well, you don't give up much and add 9 spells per day. which may or may not matter depending on how you play that wizard - i tend to dig deep into wizards & sorc's spells per day between rests, having more spells = more power. if you tend to rest a lot you may never need the extras.

further if you are looking to minor in wizard (like some of the builds working towards mirror image) specialist is even better as it will give you the extra spell slot. (which i'm sure you knew, but since it wasn't explicitly stated i mention that now)

[Dedigan]

i disagree on this point, and your earlier caution about enemy fort saves seems to back me up on this point.

given many of the swarm attack battles (the bridge in hof for example, but most of the 1st chapter in hof applies) there are more badguys then wotb can clear out and quite often the battlefield is bigger then the area of effect.

imho both wotb and mass domi have their tactical uses, so it's not like charm can replace wotb. just that it's worth having at least some focus in enchantment (or a dreadmaster w/ gsf) for that matter.

I do believe that siturations like the bridge are why he used the word "most." A combination of malison and wail of the banshee liberally applied can take care of most battles in heart of fury, but certainly not all. That's why I also use lots of symbol, hopelessnes, hold monster, chromatic orb, domination, tremor, holy word, greater command and other similar spells with spell focus, enchantment on my priests (who have most of those spells) and spell penetration (my priests use no direct damage spells, so spell penetration won't harm my party). But for every chapter, there are only a couple of battles where WoB and Malison won't finish nearly everyone.

[silverdragon72]

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...ok let's start with charm / hold vs. malison & WoB!


...have to admit the bridge was quite frustrating with this tactic...
...frustrating cause it was absolutely no challenge in HOF!

with a sorc and a wiz that both can cast WoB, with haste MI and all other self-buffs this battle was over before it started:

- 1st 2 rounds I kept my party at the starting point and cast all defensive buffs
- then the 1st and the 2nd PC (tanks) sneaked on the bridge while the 4th and the 6th (the arcane casters) positioned themselves, the sorc at the bridge-head the wiz a little bit west of her
- PC 3 (cleric) kept in a triangle position a little south of 4 and 6 while 5 (the druid bard) was well protected in the middle of the triangle (6 4 3)
- the monsters swarm in on this triangle while the hidden PCs 1 & 2 started to slay the caster and the ogre on the bridge!
- from this position the fully buffed sorc & wiz (MI) casted malison, emotion: despair & WoB several times, and as almost every monster locked on this triangle almost every monster was dead 2 or 3 rounds later!
- meanwhile PC 1 & 2 had killed the caster and the ogres and after less then 10 rounds the bridge was saved!
- the monsters in the west not attacking at once, were also no problem after that!


the trick is that both arcane casters can stand melee quite well!
so they can wait until the enemy come in casting range or just rush in the enemy crowd and then cast WoB!

As they are both high level, WoB effects more enemies then needed...
...and against the sorc most enemies have no chance to make the save even in HOF:

10 base
09 spell level
09 CHA boni (with eagles splendor)
04 GSF necro
04 emotion: depair & malison
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36 total -> at least 16 fort save to make this save - fort 26 for a 50% chance!


but this doesn't mean that you shoudn't take GSF enchantment as there aren't that many better feats for the sorc (especially mass dominate could get very handy in HOF!) - but spirit of flame I would take in every case as early as possible in/for normal game + one additional elemental feat, not just for the extra damage - the +5 elemental resistance alone is very nice!

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[silverdragon72]

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concerning the main cleric:

I generally agree with you, that you should take mix-ins like monk/rogue as early as possible!

But playing this party I always had to make the decision in taking the monk-levels or levelling up as cleric...

...and at almost every point I decided that the cleric level gives more (until you get heal all) then evasion and the WIS boni on AC (especially as he didn't get hit much, even without WIS-boni in normal game! ...so I decided to take the monk levels at the point you will need them (also to reduce the resulting EXP penalty!)

...but a drow would also do well, besides the lower basic with stat and slower levelling...

...but for me it also was a RP decision at this point, a female drow as a pal - cleric - monk of ilmater?!

...but as this thread is not about roleplaying - yes a drow would also be a possible choice for this PC!

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[silverdragon72]

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transmuter:

for most of the points you mentioned you don't need a transmuter, high alchemy is enough!


spec. wiz:

your are absolutely right for a 5 level mix-in - this should be a specialists as he just needs the defensive buffs - and getting one more of each couldn't be wrong!

...as PC 6 is build as back-up caster for the sorc and should give the arcane firepower in the early game (as the sorc build is to slow therefore) To have all spells available (especially as you don't find some spells/scrolls early), I decided not to specialize the wiz!

For PC 1 taking the wiz levels late, the number of spells isn't that important as he just use self-buffs and then go melee - so I also decided not to specialize him. But yes - there are reason to specialise him - both is possible!


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[myrophine]

silverdragon,

I have a question about high AC. I realize that the best enemies have BAB 52 and then it caps off. But do all enemies have this near the middle (and dare I say beginning)?

I ask because I am building the default party, hands of fury (comes with the CD), into a HOF viable party. One character, Amraith a high dexer20 with split stats between int14 and wisdom14 posed a dilemma. I filled a void by making him cleric and was happy to have all the buffs of a wizard too. fighter4 cleric15 wizard11 (yup an icky xp penalty once those cleric levels are taken). Fortunately he can be cleric of bane so I can pump dex if I want and wear drakkas but no lawful alignment so no monk level

So don't ask me why I'm playing with default party! Its a challenge!!

10 Basic AC
11 or 12 Dex 20 + 7 stat increase + 5 (slippers/cats/tensors etc) to 7 (excellent tensors) = total dexterity of 32 to 34
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21 or 22 basic plus stats

5 Expertise
1 Dodge
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6 feats (so far 27 to 28)

8 Chain of Drakkas Fury (armor)
3 Sunfire talisman
5 bands (wandering village)
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16 items (so far 43 to 44)
note on why no crows nest: I'm stuck with one fighter level. If I bring in a rogue level I lose A) weapon specialization which makes his early career as an archer quite sad B) when I take the cleric levels there is 40 percent xp penalty C) I might lose 8th level cleric spells (if I didn't cut down fighter levels)...B would definately occur along with one of A and C.

6 divine shell
4 haste
4 tensors (no double dipping the dex bonus...I already counted it. The 4 is just the generic bonus
5 max cast of barkskin
2 war chant of sith
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21 spells or songs (so far 64 to 65). So this guy has about 8 ac lower than 72 and so he should get hit 45% percent of attacks by tough people. (of course mirror image, blur, blink, stoneskin will cut it down.

So obviously its better to take the mean people down with summons and leave this guy to fight BAB = 46 or lower opponents. Does anyone in HOF have such a BAB?

thats the main question and a back-up is the following: is there any utility in having AC 64 against a BAB = 52 opponent? Or is it simply a matter of running away while distracting them with 6 summons then regrouping?

morale of the story: "it is hard to get ac 72 (unless you're a deep gnome or a monk....or both )"

-myrophine

ps upon further review I could redesign the character to be a fighter rogue mage. He would get 3 generic ac from crows nest. He would lose 6 deflection ac from devine shell but get it back in the form of 5 from ghost armor...so I lose the parties 2nd cleric and get 35% of the time hit instead of 45% which is not worth it in my book.

pps no I cannot change the race or alignment as he is a default party character and the rules of my game are to make due with what you've got (no dale editor or whatever)

[silverdragon72]

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1st I'm a little confused about your question...

if you post the stats, build and race maybe I can give some input on your PC as I'm not familar with the default parties.


Only the toughest non-boss enemies have BAB 52 - the weakest HOF monsters should have an BAB ~30 - but I'm not 100% sure about this (as I always play the Targos mod)

Any AC 60+ makes sense from my point of view, as it lets your MI last longer...

...and remember that there is still the -5 factor on each additional attack:

so an enemiy with 4 attacks and BAB 52 still has the following "single" BABs:

1st - BAB 52
2nd - BAB 47
3rd - BAB 42
4th - BAB 37

...so an AC 64 will still stop the 3rd & 4th atttack - besides a 20!
...and gives your MI 1 or 2 additional rounds!


theoretically you could ignore the AC completly and just use MI, blink, blur & stoneskin - but if there are 5 tough enemies around this PC you would get targeted by up to 20 attacks per round - and this would reduce your MI just to fast - and most MC-build just have a few MIs available!

I wouldn't rely to much on summons as there are some battles without a chance to precast - and once the enemies have locked on your PCs your summons won't help as decoys anymore!


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[myrophine]

Yup, you answered my curiosity just fine. Its not important what my guys are exactly...the main thing is that one has a (potential) ac of 64 and I wondered if that was helpful (or if I might as well have an ac of 24).

I hadn't thought of the -5 per extra attack. Well thanks for the answer and good gaming...

myro

[Who Cares]

[QUOTE=silverdragon72].


Special Note: "adamantine" does not dissolve in IWD2. For example, Stormcaller, Hammer of Lightning, Order's Nemesis, Life's Blood Drinker, Implaer, Rage of Chaos, Despana Insignia, and Despana Piwafwi are all made from it in vanilla IWD2 and none of them turn to dust.
[/QUOTE]

I might remember this incorrectly (but I don't think so).
This could be because the only items made of adamantine that ever dissolved were drow crafted weapons and armor. In AD&D 2nd the explanation was that drow used naturally occuring magical energy to enhance the power of their armor and weapons. This was used as a game explanation why every Drow you'd meet was lugging along +3 (or better) weapons and armor. Then as counter balance (to prevent PCs from getting filthy rich by killing of a bunch of drow) this energy used to enhance the weapons & armor would decay when hit by sunlight and take the metal with it.
So with the possible exception of the Piwafwi all the other items could have been created by non Drow (or are not weapons/armor) and therefore not vulnerable to decay.

[krunchyfrogg]

This is in reply to character 1 in your guide. Since he's the 3rd string arcane caster, and you really don't use many offensive spells, might you be better off with a specialist mage there? This way you can cast an extra Mirror Image, for example.

Also, with the 4th PC, what's the point of adding a single Rogue level at that point? Wouldn't you be better off adding a single (or 3) level of Monk, just for the Saving Throw bonus (2/2/2) and the ability of evasion?

[silverdragon72]

[QUOTE=krunchyfrogg]This is in reply to character 1 in your guide. Since he's the 3rd string arcane caster, and you really don't use many offensive spells, might you be better off with a specialist mage there? This way you can cast an extra Mirror Image, for example.

Also, with the 4th PC, what's the point of adding a single Rogue level at that point? Wouldn't you be better off adding a single (or 3) level of Monk, just for the Saving Throw bonus (2/2/2) and the ability of evasion?[/QUOTE]


1.: a specialist mage could be an option - need to check if there is any important evocation spell for this build - but "in game" this PC uses a very wide spell-selection


2.: rogue is only an option for this bild - not sure why I added it - maybe there was (besides evasion) also a rogue-only item with CHA-boni I would like to use for this build. But not sure. The saving throw bonus doesn't matter that much at this point of the game for this build - (+12 CHA boni! )

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[Raumoheru]

i am sorry but when i read this i laugh. just because you throw in a bunch of silly classes together that make no RP sense for minor a bonus of the class does not make it anymore powerfull then a balanced party of

definetly the best race!

- SR
- great stat boni - but the +2 on CHA are useless for most drow-builds
- the "right" favored classes (wizard or cleric!)
- +2 boni on will-saves
- 3 times a day Faeri Fire (don't underestimate FF - cause really ever enemy in HOF is affected by this spell!)

no, not definiatly the best race, the most overused overated race maybe, but not the best.

4. Half-ORC

if you go for a barb X- fighter 4 (what is not recommended!!!) a half-orc isn't a bad choice due the +2 STR boni!

and why is that? this combo is able to dish out as much damage and take just as much if not more punishment as any of the other melee builds i have seen on this.

Rogue:

Great mix-in class, best with 3 levels - should always be taken as 1st level to maximes skill points! - Evasion is great, also the 2D6 sneak attack you get with level 3!

The rogue is also a good decision for a dual class build (with 10 or 11 levels then to get access to the special feats) in combination with a wizard!

More rogue levels are not recommended as sneak attack isn't that powerfull in IWD2 (especially not in HOF with all enemies having an insane amount of HP) and the rogue skills aren't really needed at any point of the game!

lol, and do a few more skills points in this game matter....why?

Paladin:

great mix-in class (with 1 or better 2 levels! CHA-boni to saves is great for each Sorc, resistance to fear (Aura of courage) is also great for pal & party!

2 Pal levels are a must for each Sorc, for cleric-builds Pals are also a great mix-in, espesially as your cleric gets the holy avenger and the PAL quest this way!

Pal levels beyond the 3rd are just wasted!

i agree with this except that levels beyond 3 are not just wasted.

as already stated above most good MC-builds consists of one major class and several mix-in classes!

The best major classes are cleric and wizard:

1. These classes doesn't gain much after level 17 to 20!

2. The most powerfull melee builds need caster levels as the best buffs available are self-buffs!

3. wizard could use the synergies from INT - for expertise feat, or for tons of SP in combination with rogue levels!

4. The clerics high WIS is great for the monk WIS-boni and if they have gigh CHA for turning undead you can use this synergy with paladins!

5. cleric & wizard are the favored classes for drows - the most powerfull race in game!

honestly the low level caster buffs are not even worth using and do not make too big of a difference.


overall, this "guide" is more like a complete waste of forum space. sounds like you are just in a "look at me, i think i know what i am talking about" ego trip.

[Aerich]

I disagree. Silverdragon's whole concept is built on optimum builds for HoF mode. It's probably not the most powerful for normal mode, and is hard to justify from a roleplay perspective without some creativity, but the objective of these parties is not to get hit in HoF.

The essence of HoF is that it is unbalanced. It requires a whole new set of combat and character creation tactics, which is what this thread is about.