I'm glad SYMers and their families are alright, and hope that the list of injuries and fatalities is low. We'll just have to wait to find out.
Al Queda, or some faction thereof, has claimed responsibilty. First 9/11, then the Madrid bombings, now this... I hope this isn't as deadly as either of the other two, but I just don't understand any of it.
Cuchulain, from what I've heard on the BBC, the fatalities nowhere approach 9/11, but the numbers don't matter, do they? As for undestanding it: when people in a nation develop an awareness over time of the way they've been exploited by non-nationals (apparently it's okay for nationals to do it--look at Bush), they become obsessed with those they view as their puppetmasters. Fact-based complaints and an understanding of the economic, cultural and political forces at work in other nations as well as their own become lost in an overwhelmingly emotional belief that certain outside countries are evil, that everything those countries have done is terrible, and that They Must Pay. The people living in these nations, like the nations themselves, become demonized.
Bombs in London
[QUOTE=fable]As for undestanding it: when people in a nation develop an awareness over time of the way they've been exploited by non-nationals (apparently it's okay for nationals to do it--look at Bush), they become obsessed with those they view as their puppetmasters. Fact-based complaints and an understanding of the economic, cultural and political forces at work in other nations as well as their own become lost in an overwhelmingly emotional belief that certain outside countries are evil, that everything those countries have done is terrible, and that They Must Pay. The people living in these nations, like the nations themselves, become demonized.[/QUOTE]
But I fear these attacks might have been committed by people living in Britain - maybe even born in Britain...
But I fear these attacks might have been committed by people living in Britain - maybe even born in Britain...
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
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Cuchulain82
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[QUOTE=fable]Cuchulain, from what I've heard on the BBC, the fatalities nowhere approach 9/11, but the numbers don't matter, do they?[/quote]
Of course they matter- less is better, and none is best. I think I know what you are getting at Fable, but I hope that the number of casualties/fatalities is less than either of the other previous attacks I mentioned.
[QUOTE=fable]As for undestanding it: when people in a nation develop an awareness over time of the way they've been exploited by non-nationals (apparently it's okay for nationals to do it--look at Bush), they become obsessed with those they view as their puppetmasters. <snip> The people living in these nations, like the nations themselves, become demonized.[/quote]
I guess that what I meant was that I don't understand it empathetically. I was an International Studies major not too long ago, and I know that academic reasons for why people turn to terrorism. The actual reality of it- the brainwashing of people, the thought that terrorism can be a religious edict, etc.- that is what I don't understand. To me, people are people, and I am one for "positive sum" games, where everyone benefits- a rising tide floats all boats, and all that. Terrorism is so negative, and terrorists devote their time and energy to destroying with the hope of..... creating something, I guess? Making a new paradigm that keeps the West out of the Middle East? It is that logic, that says that from manipulation and destruction something positive can emerge, that I don't understand.
As for puppet masters, I think that people who use religion to preach violence and intolerance are among the worst manipulators in the world.
Edit-@Lestat
To me, the fact that this might have been done by native Britains is very unnerving because it is, imo, indicative of a failure to create a cohesion in society.
Of course they matter- less is better, and none is best. I think I know what you are getting at Fable, but I hope that the number of casualties/fatalities is less than either of the other previous attacks I mentioned.
[QUOTE=fable]As for undestanding it: when people in a nation develop an awareness over time of the way they've been exploited by non-nationals (apparently it's okay for nationals to do it--look at Bush), they become obsessed with those they view as their puppetmasters. <snip> The people living in these nations, like the nations themselves, become demonized.[/quote]
I guess that what I meant was that I don't understand it empathetically. I was an International Studies major not too long ago, and I know that academic reasons for why people turn to terrorism. The actual reality of it- the brainwashing of people, the thought that terrorism can be a religious edict, etc.- that is what I don't understand. To me, people are people, and I am one for "positive sum" games, where everyone benefits- a rising tide floats all boats, and all that. Terrorism is so negative, and terrorists devote their time and energy to destroying with the hope of..... creating something, I guess? Making a new paradigm that keeps the West out of the Middle East? It is that logic, that says that from manipulation and destruction something positive can emerge, that I don't understand.
As for puppet masters, I think that people who use religion to preach violence and intolerance are among the worst manipulators in the world.
Edit-@Lestat
To me, the fact that this might have been done by native Britains is very unnerving because it is, imo, indicative of a failure to create a cohesion in society.
Custodia legis
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fable
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[QUOTE=Lestat]But I fear these attacks might have been committed by people living in Britain - maybe even born in Britain...[/QUOTE]
We don't know who has done this, but you have a point. Instead of reading "nations," then, above, read "cultures." So, a sub-cultural mindset in some nations may form where the believers feel that everyone else must pay for the huge crimes of the nation. ETA, the IRA, etc: these are sub-cultural nationalist groups that are completely alienated from the main culture they reside within. But it could be individuals, too, though the sheer number of bombings (if I understand correctly; the UK isn't being very forthcoming even about where the blasts occurred, at this moment) would seem to point to at least a small, well-organized group.
I guess that what I meant was that I don't understand it empathetically. I was an International Studies major not too long ago, and I know that academic reasons for why people turn to terrorism. The actual reality of it- the brainwashing of people, the thought that terrorism can be a religious edict, etc.-
Terrorism often has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or brainwashing. The rightwing patriots of today in some nations support the governments that overthrew their predecessors in part through the use of terrorism. The US and France had strong terrorist elements active during their respective revolutions. Germany had terrorist cells active during the years of Nazi administration. To really discuss terrorism, we have to define it better; so do you mean religiously based terrorism? Why do you figure that's the origins of the attacks in the UK? I realize a group calling itself Al-Qa'idah has claimed responsibility, but anybody could do that.
To me, people are people, and I am one for "positive sum" games, where everyone benefits- a rising tide floats all boats, and all that. Terrorism is so negative...
Depends on the terrorism. I understand and support the so-called "terrorist" acts being committed against the horrific occupation of Chechnya, but not those being exported upon civilians in the Russian Union. And the IRA did finally get the UK government to come to the discussion table. The difference is that terrorism is a generic word that can be used to cover a multitude of activities, government-sponsored, anti-government, or anti-everybody. And each of these groups will have their own agenda and methods.
We don't know who has done this, but you have a point. Instead of reading "nations," then, above, read "cultures." So, a sub-cultural mindset in some nations may form where the believers feel that everyone else must pay for the huge crimes of the nation. ETA, the IRA, etc: these are sub-cultural nationalist groups that are completely alienated from the main culture they reside within. But it could be individuals, too, though the sheer number of bombings (if I understand correctly; the UK isn't being very forthcoming even about where the blasts occurred, at this moment) would seem to point to at least a small, well-organized group.
I guess that what I meant was that I don't understand it empathetically. I was an International Studies major not too long ago, and I know that academic reasons for why people turn to terrorism. The actual reality of it- the brainwashing of people, the thought that terrorism can be a religious edict, etc.-
Terrorism often has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or brainwashing. The rightwing patriots of today in some nations support the governments that overthrew their predecessors in part through the use of terrorism. The US and France had strong terrorist elements active during their respective revolutions. Germany had terrorist cells active during the years of Nazi administration. To really discuss terrorism, we have to define it better; so do you mean religiously based terrorism? Why do you figure that's the origins of the attacks in the UK? I realize a group calling itself Al-Qa'idah has claimed responsibility, but anybody could do that.
To me, people are people, and I am one for "positive sum" games, where everyone benefits- a rising tide floats all boats, and all that. Terrorism is so negative...
Depends on the terrorism. I understand and support the so-called "terrorist" acts being committed against the horrific occupation of Chechnya, but not those being exported upon civilians in the Russian Union. And the IRA did finally get the UK government to come to the discussion table. The difference is that terrorism is a generic word that can be used to cover a multitude of activities, government-sponsored, anti-government, or anti-everybody. And each of these groups will have their own agenda and methods.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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fable
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The BBC has announced that "at least 10 people are dead, more than 100 hurt." Just thought I'd pass that along. I'm sure accurate figures will appear later in the day/evening.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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moltovir
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Italian tv talks about 15 deaths, on BBC1 they were talking about 150 casualties , after that it was 300, and now it's suddenly 100, Belgian news said 40 deaths and 2000 wounded... who to believe? 
@Fable: the VRT (Belgian television) showed a map of London with the locations of the attacks. 1 Double Decker bus and 7 subway stations seem to be hit, including King's Cross.
@Fable: the VRT (Belgian television) showed a map of London with the locations of the attacks. 1 Double Decker bus and 7 subway stations seem to be hit, including King's Cross.
"We are at a very serious moment dealing with very serious issues and we are not focusing on the name you give to potatoes" - Nathalie Loisau
Heard 33 dead on BBC World just now, with the important caveat that this was not including the dead from the bomb in the bus.
@ fable: I think terrorism is by definition an attack on unarmed civilians destined to cause terror, and thus never justifiable. Though it can be used by groups who have legitimate grievances, as far as I'm concerned there is no excuse whatsoever to deliberately killing innocent people.
Chechnyan rebels attacking Russian soldiers or Palistinian fighters attacking Israeli soldiers: that is part of a struggle for freedom of their people (whether it is a wise strategy is another question alltogether). Suicide bomb attacks at Israeli busstops or bomb attacks in metro stations (Moscow, Madrid and now London) are heinous crimes.
@ fable: I think terrorism is by definition an attack on unarmed civilians destined to cause terror, and thus never justifiable. Though it can be used by groups who have legitimate grievances, as far as I'm concerned there is no excuse whatsoever to deliberately killing innocent people.
Chechnyan rebels attacking Russian soldiers or Palistinian fighters attacking Israeli soldiers: that is part of a struggle for freedom of their people (whether it is a wise strategy is another question alltogether). Suicide bomb attacks at Israeli busstops or bomb attacks in metro stations (Moscow, Madrid and now London) are heinous crimes.
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
The area around liverpool street and aldgate has turned into a ghost town. There are no cars and very few people around when walking the streets that were not involved in the attacks. I live inbetween aldgate east and liverpool so I've been in the middle of it all day. Actually I didn't even notice anything at until I came to the office and people were like are you ok and stuff. They are saying on the local radio that all public transport will probably be off during all of today and maybe even tomorrow in central london. Luckely I work a 5min walk from home so I don't have to walk across town as Gorgi has to do.
Oh well, back to work.
Oh well, back to work.
"Those who control the past control the future, those who control the present control the past" And I rule the PRESENT!!
I put the 'laughter' back in 'slaughter'
I put the 'laughter' back in 'slaughter'
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fable
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[QUOTE=Coot]BBC talks about 33 confirmed deaths. My wife has family and friends in England, some in London. So far, we haven't been able to reach them.[/QUOTE]
Yes, so far 33 confirmed dead, at least 150 injured. According to the BBC now, some measure of phone services are being reserved for emergency use, which probably explains why you're having difficulty.
EDIT: Four bombs in the trains, according to last report.
Yes, so far 33 confirmed dead, at least 150 injured. According to the BBC now, some measure of phone services are being reserved for emergency use, which probably explains why you're having difficulty.
EDIT: Four bombs in the trains, according to last report.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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winter rose
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[QUOTE=Lestat]
there is no excuse whatsoever to deliberately killing innocent people.
[/QUOTE]
Not even in a war for freedom. For the death of innocents is always wrong right?
Anyway my prayers to the people and esp those who lost loved ones. This is indeed very very sad.
there is no excuse whatsoever to deliberately killing innocent people.
[/QUOTE]
Not even in a war for freedom. For the death of innocents is always wrong right?
Anyway my prayers to the people and esp those who lost loved ones. This is indeed very very sad.
A rose to her heart that heaven might bless.
[QUOTE=winter rose]Not even in a war for freedom. For the death of innocents is always wrong right?[/QUOTE]
Indeed the death of innocents is always wrong, though sometimes unavoidable.
But the operating word is "deliberately". Sorry, I feel very strongly about this, I have been too often confronted with the results of the idiocy of (parts of) the human race in my line of work.
Indeed the death of innocents is always wrong, though sometimes unavoidable.
But the operating word is "deliberately". Sorry, I feel very strongly about this, I have been too often confronted with the results of the idiocy of (parts of) the human race in my line of work.
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
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dragon wench
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I'm very grateful that those GB members in the London area are okay..... I was extremely worried when I heard the news...
@Winter Rose,
Yes, the killing of innocents is always wrong, no matter the circumstances; there are no exceptions IMO, not ever. Yes, virtually every nation and culture in the world is guilty of it, but that can never justify the slaughter of innocents, regardless of the cause.
@Winter Rose,
Yes, the killing of innocents is always wrong, no matter the circumstances; there are no exceptions IMO, not ever. Yes, virtually every nation and culture in the world is guilty of it, but that can never justify the slaughter of innocents, regardless of the cause.
Spoiler
testingtest12
Spoiler
testingtest12
[QUOTE=winter rose]Not even in a war for freedom. For the death of innocents is always wrong right?
Anyway my prayers to the people and esp those who lost loved ones. This is indeed very very sad.[/QUOTE]
A war for freedom will never be won by deliberately killing of innoncents civilians, unless you can completely wipe out the oppoersition in a genocide.
And no amount of ", but..." will justify it.
Terrorist attacks in moderncountries will only add to the contrary. The only people who feel sympathy by these acts are people already sympathetic for what ever cause these inhuman individuals think they support. The people they want to sway - they need to sway - to achive anything will turn their backs upon such actions and causes. Civilized people can only condem such actions in my view.
I often think how these "people" (which I don't even see them as) would think if somebody brought a bomb into their house and blew up their family. Would they think that the bombers were justified because they fought for a cause. Or is it only these "individuals" cause which justified the means?
I would think everybody knows the answer to this......and it just goes to show how twisted these "people" are in my view. I doubt these "people" like it when somebody intentionally mains and mutilates "their" family and friends. Yet they think it is justified and what not when they do it.
Anyway my prayers to the people and esp those who lost loved ones. This is indeed very very sad.[/QUOTE]
A war for freedom will never be won by deliberately killing of innoncents civilians, unless you can completely wipe out the oppoersition in a genocide.
And no amount of ", but..." will justify it.
Terrorist attacks in moderncountries will only add to the contrary. The only people who feel sympathy by these acts are people already sympathetic for what ever cause these inhuman individuals think they support. The people they want to sway - they need to sway - to achive anything will turn their backs upon such actions and causes. Civilized people can only condem such actions in my view.
I often think how these "people" (which I don't even see them as) would think if somebody brought a bomb into their house and blew up their family. Would they think that the bombers were justified because they fought for a cause. Or is it only these "individuals" cause which justified the means?
I would think everybody knows the answer to this......and it just goes to show how twisted these "people" are in my view. I doubt these "people" like it when somebody intentionally mains and mutilates "their" family and friends. Yet they think it is justified and what not when they do it.
Insert signature here.
[QUOTE=Xandax]
However - the time of the attack was relative wellplanned, because I would think the moral was very high due to winning the Olympic Games, and this can possible place a damper on that spirit. But I have faith in the english peoples ability to come back from this withouth many scars - except what is placed by the casulties.
Edit: Latest numbers say 10 confirmed dead. [/QUOTE]
I doubt somehow that the bombings will effect an event that will take place in seven years time. And, although the death toll will certainly rise, thankfully, when you consider what could have been, I think we got off very lightly.
The scariest thing for me, was hearing the news, on the radio while in an art class and thinking
"Bloody Hell. I was IN two of those places this time yesterday." We were on a school trip yesterday, and quite literally drove through the sites of the bombings today.
The other shock was attempting to get through to my cousins who live in London, and the phones being down. Thankfully they were ok, and our thoughts are with the families who weren't so lucky.
However - the time of the attack was relative wellplanned, because I would think the moral was very high due to winning the Olympic Games, and this can possible place a damper on that spirit. But I have faith in the english peoples ability to come back from this withouth many scars - except what is placed by the casulties.
Edit: Latest numbers say 10 confirmed dead.
[/QUOTE]I doubt somehow that the bombings will effect an event that will take place in seven years time. And, although the death toll will certainly rise, thankfully, when you consider what could have been, I think we got off very lightly.
The scariest thing for me, was hearing the news, on the radio while in an art class and thinking
"Bloody Hell. I was IN two of those places this time yesterday." We were on a school trip yesterday, and quite literally drove through the sites of the bombings today.
The other shock was attempting to get through to my cousins who live in London, and the phones being down. Thankfully they were ok, and our thoughts are with the families who weren't so lucky.
Mag: Don't remember much at all of last night do you?
Me: put simply.... No
Mag: From what I put together of your late night drunken ramblings? Vodka, 3 girls, and then we played tic-tac-toe and slapped each other around.
Me: put simply.... No
Mag: From what I put together of your late night drunken ramblings? Vodka, 3 girls, and then we played tic-tac-toe and slapped each other around.
Though you might not agree with their position on the war in Iraq, here is a fairly insightful opinion of the (London-based) Economist:
http://www.economist.com/printedition/d ... ID=4166694
http://www.economist.com/printedition/d ... ID=4166694
I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability.
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
- Oscar Wilde
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I'll walk carefully.
- Russian proverb
I live just east of London on the coast. I am relieved that I am on my break from University, though I doubt I would have been affected as much travelling by the DLR.
From the news I heard the Underground network is going to be closed until tommorow morning with the main affected stations closed longer (King's Cross closed affects all the East Coast services).
Transport for London suggested commuters 'stagger' the time they set off for home and many people have resorted to river transportation. Roads are also gridlocked out of London
How terrible to have this the day after winning the olympic bid (whatever you feel about it) .
No doubt Bush and Blair will both seek to gain political captital from the event.
Fortunately I don't know anyone who got caught up in the actual event, although one of my relatives may have to sleep on an office floor due to the disruption to the trains.
Another dark day for the developed world and probably Britain's version of 9/11. Much bigger than IRA attacks and all the more disturbing in places you know and have been to.
From the news I heard the Underground network is going to be closed until tommorow morning with the main affected stations closed longer (King's Cross closed affects all the East Coast services).
Transport for London suggested commuters 'stagger' the time they set off for home
and many people have resorted to river transportation. Roads are also gridlocked out of LondonHow terrible to have this the day after winning the olympic bid (whatever you feel about it)
.No doubt Bush and Blair will both seek to gain political captital from the event.
Fortunately I don't know anyone who got caught up in the actual event, although one of my relatives may have to sleep on an office floor due to the disruption to the trains.
Another dark day for the developed world and probably Britain's version of 9/11. Much bigger than IRA attacks and all the more disturbing in places you know and have been to.
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Fiona
Before I say anything I want to make it clear that I am not condoning these actions or any others of the same sort. Please do not think I support this kind of action.
Having said that I think we have to consider what these people want/might be thinking. I have been told today that the group which claimed responsibility said they wanted Britain out of Iraq and Afghanistan. I know there are different views about that but it seems to me that the war against terrorism is hard to characterise as a defensive war when we are conducting it on someone else's territory. I always think that is a good way to sort out who is the aggressor - look to see where the fighting is. This chimes with what Bush is reported to have said above and also with the history of the British empire, I think.
Secondly I am very conscious that the west justifies its actions in other countries on the basis that democracy exists in the west and should be spread all over the world. I can see it might puzzle the opposition to claim that the civilian population are innocent if they accept that these countries are democratic. Surely that suggests that every person is responsible for what the governments and armies do ?
Having said that I think we have to consider what these people want/might be thinking. I have been told today that the group which claimed responsibility said they wanted Britain out of Iraq and Afghanistan. I know there are different views about that but it seems to me that the war against terrorism is hard to characterise as a defensive war when we are conducting it on someone else's territory. I always think that is a good way to sort out who is the aggressor - look to see where the fighting is. This chimes with what Bush is reported to have said above and also with the history of the British empire, I think.
Secondly I am very conscious that the west justifies its actions in other countries on the basis that democracy exists in the west and should be spread all over the world. I can see it might puzzle the opposition to claim that the civilian population are innocent if they accept that these countries are democratic. Surely that suggests that every person is responsible for what the governments and armies do ?